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N4/N5: How should they be developed?

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    #92
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Someday wrote: »
    General Timeframe ?:confused:

    How long is a piece of string?

    EIS / planning / CPO could be published within two years. Cash will not be forthcoming for some time though.


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    #93
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Merged threads.


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    #94
    nordydan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭nordydan


    Preliminary detailed drawings of the N5 Westport Bohola scheme have been posted here:

    http://www.regdesign.com/Projects/January%202010%20Map%20Page.html

    ALso on this site, detailed drawings of the N59 Westpoprt - Mulranney scheme (linked to N5):

    http://www.regdesign.com/Projects/N59%20Website%20Drawings%20in%20pdf.html


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    #95
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    westtip wrote: »
    The suggestion was for the N5 to go west at Frenchpark to join the N4 at Carrick - even if this extended the journey from say Castlebar to Dubln by a few Km it would mean the need for less new road pavement than putting in the Scramoge to Frenchpark section of the N5 and resolve the issue of going through all the archaeology around Tulsk

    Righty Ho!

    The final route from Mullingar to Rooskey is to be finalised this week.
    the preferred route corridor will be finalised in the 1st quarter of 2010.

    Lets see whether any consideration has been given to your plan then!

    Also remember that the Western Regional Plan is open for consultation till April 09th Only and you should horse your scheme into them too.

    http://www.galway.ie/en/Business/WestRegionalAuthority/

    and

    http://www.galway.ie/en/Business/WestRegionalAuthority/Title,13097,en.html


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    #96
    Son of Stupido
    Registered Users Posts: 116 ✭✭Son of Stupido


    They are seriously f***ed for the N5.

    Some new research is showing up amazing preserved Iron age - Early Medieval (Christian) landscapes in Roscommon.

    More info below

    http://www.discoveryprogramme.ie/

    If they thought the N3 was difficult......!!!


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    #97
    123easy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭123easy


    Anybody know what the current state of play is with the N5 Longford to Ballaghaderreen is . Last, I heard was it was at route selection. Has a preferred route being adopted by elected members yet? Or has a preferred route gone through NRA Peer Review?

    If the route goes near the Archaeology at Tulsk the Oral Hearing for this scheme will be some circus!:D


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    #98
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    123easy wrote: »
    Anybody know what the current state of play is with the N5 Longford to Ballaghaderreen is .

    Read Westips alternative N5 Ballaghadereen-Longford plan from last year, it certainly makes sense to me.

    He had quietly discussed it with the CEO of the NRA before sharing it with the riffraff on Boards.


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    #99
    123easy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭123easy


    It seems pretty damn certain the link road from Ballaghderreen to the N4 proposed on here has just been flushed down the toilet! Its been abanoned in favour of


    http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=MAY149257&catID=1

    No point in building this if you were building a link from the N5 to the N4 at Ballaghaderreen any time soon


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    #100
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    123easy wrote: »
    It seems pretty damn certain the link road from Ballaghderreen to the N4 proposed on here has just been flushed down the toilet! Its been abanoned in favour of


    http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=MAY149257&catID=1

    No point in building this if you were building a link from the N5 to the N4 at Ballaghaderreen any time soon

    Thats required for Longford as-is, its also EXTREMELY cheap as road schemes go. 2.6km of single carriageway. Land already bought. Cheapest construction prices for years.

    Anyway, to the tender-watch thread with that now.


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    #101
    123easy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭123easy


    I would strongly argue that this scheme would not be going to tender if there was any intention to connect the N5 to the N4 back in Ballaghaderreen.

    This scheme could only be justified if the Mayo traffic is routed along the existing N5 through Longford town and onto the N4. Without the Mayo traffic this scheme would be pointless.

    E20 million construction cost for 2.6km aint cheap at all never mind EXTREMELY cheap as you say, and then add in land etc. Its got a bit more to it than straight 2.6km S2 i.e. 3 Structures and significant earthworks


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    #102
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    123easy wrote: »
    It seems pretty damn certain the link road from Ballaghderreen to the N4 proposed on here has just been flushed down the toilet!

    I never knew of such a plan - could anyone elaborate on this?

    It could make complete sense to go from the west of Ballaghadereen to the south of Boyle and therefore cut-out so much messing - especially around Termonbarry which is near the back of Longford and awkward to work around, especially with the Shannon and canals etc. The route would be considerably shorter too.

    Regards!


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    #103
    123easy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭123easy


    Basically some people on here were suggesting that N5 should be connected to the N4 by a new road from Frenchpark to Carrick on Shannon


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    #104
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    123easy wrote: »
    I would strongly argue that this scheme would not be going to tender if there was any intention to connect the N5 to the N4 back in Ballaghaderreen.

    This scheme could only be justified if the Mayo traffic is routed along the existing N5 through Longford town and onto the N4. Without the Mayo traffic this scheme would be pointless.

    E20 million construction cost for 2.6km aint cheap at all never mind EXTREMELY cheap as you say, and then add in land etc. Its got a bit more to it than straight 2.6km S2 i.e. 3 Structures and significant earthworks


    I'd argue strongly against that. Its a scheme thats been planned for years, and is needed *now* whereas any N5 re-routing is a decade or more down the line. The NRA has history of building cheap temporary bypasses when they know a proper fix is immiment - Enfield, Edgesworthstown (will be redundant when the N4 Mullingar-Roosky scheme is done), etc.

    Where on earth are you getting €20M from anyway? Doubt its going to cost anything close to that. The land was bought a long, long time ago.


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    #105
    123easy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭123easy


    MYOB wrote: »
    I'd argue strongly against that. Its a scheme thats been planned for years, and is needed *now* whereas any N5 re-routing is a decade or more down the line. The NRA has history of building cheap temporary bypasses when they know a proper fix is immiment - Enfield, Edgesworthstown (will be redundant when the N4 Mullingar-Roosky scheme is done), etc.

    Where on earth are you getting €20M from anyway? Doubt its going to cost anything close to that. The land was bought a long, long time ago.

    The 20 mill is what they put on Etenders and that is Ex VAT.

    I did qualify my first post with
    123easy wrote: »
    any time soon
    MYOB wrote: »
    The land was bought a long, long time ago.

    How long in years is a long, long time ago?


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    #106
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The CPO was published in, if memory serves me, 2005. Five years is an eternity in Irish road planning.

    The 20M is an out-of-the-air figure to fill in a box on the form. It won't cost close to that.


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    #107
    123easy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭123easy


    MYOB wrote: »
    The CPO was published in, if memory serves me, 2005. Five years is an eternity in Irish road planning.

    The 20M is an out-of-the-air figure to fill in a box on the form. It won't cost close to that.

    Land purchasing procedure cant be initiated until the CPO is approved by An Board which wasnt until 08. The treat and entry have to be served so the land could only be recently purchased if not purchased at all yet

    There were no stuctures or significant earthworks on EdgeWstown bypass.


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    #108
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    123easy wrote: »
    Land purchasing procedure cant be initiated until the CPO is approved by An Board which wasnt until 08.

    There were no stuctures or significant earthworks on EdgeWstown bypass.

    Land is bought, either way. Longford traffic will still be bad irrespective of how the N5 ends up, seeing as there are large tracts of land earmarked for industrial development out the Strokestown Road as is, so this road is going to be needed.

    The Edgeworthstown bypass, which is longer, cost 14M inclusive of land prices in a boom. A shorter scheme in a deep recession with no remaining land costs won't cost 20M, irrespective of needing four structures. The Edgesworthstown bypass also does have structures, or else you'd fall in to the river...


    As goes long-term plans, you might want to take note that this scheme is below the standard the NRA wants on the N5. Other future N5 schemes are intended to be reduced DC, so this is clearly not part of any long term plans.


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    #109
    123easy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭123easy


    MYOB wrote: »
    you might want to take note that this scheme is below the standard the NRA wants on the N5. Other future N5 schemes are intended to be reduced DC, so this is clearly not part of any long term plans.


    Incorrect! The N5 Ballaghderreen bypass 13km, next up for tender is S2 as is the Charlestown bypass. Yes, N5 Bohola Westport is 2+2 but theres more traffic using it.

    anyways I think we will agree that it will be a long time before anything happens with section in between


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    #110
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    123easy wrote: »
    Incorrect! The N5 Ballaghderreen bypass 13km, next up for tender is S2 as is the Charlestown bypass. Yes, N5 Bohola Westport is 2+2 but theres more traffic using it.

    anyways I think we will agree that it will be a long time before anything happens with section in between

    The Charlestown BP is already built.

    The Ballaghadereen BP is going to be build as Reduced D2 as the WS2 standard it was intended for does not exist on the spec books anymore.


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    #111
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,741 ✭✭✭SeanW


    The biggest priority for the N4/5 must be the Longford-Mullingar DC. Ideally this would be Type 1 - if not M-way, from Mullingar to Longford, it could be type 2 dual afterwards bypassing Newtownforbes which is a mess. The N5 Longford Bypass is needed in any case because traffic in the town is mental, if the N5 were to be realigned towards the North as some on here have suggested, the eventual N5 Longford Bypass could be reclassified N63, as there is a new industrial link road connecting the N63 and the current N5 which could also be trunked. Would have to get rid of the speed bumps though.

    As to the actual realignment plan, it's been a while since I've travelled the N5 but I think the worst sections are West of Ballaghadeeran. So you would be talking about practically an entire rebuild.


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    #112
    123easy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭123easy


    MYOB wrote: »
    The Charlestown BP is already built.

    The Ballaghadereen BP is going to be build as Reduced D2 as the WS2 standard it was intended for does not exist on the spec books anymore.


    Incorrect, its approved by An bord as s2.


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    #113
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    123easy wrote: »
    Incorrect, its approved by An bord as s2.

    So was the northern end of the M3 scheme. Being built as RD2
    The Castleisland BP and Roosky BP were approved as S2+1. Being/were built as RD2.

    RD2 uses the same land take and doesn't require any reapproval.


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    #114
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    NRA often applied to ABP to get an S2 approved plan reclassisified as 2+2. Happened with the TUam bypass.


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    #115
    123easy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭123easy


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    NRA often applied to ABP to get an S2 approved plan reclassisified as 2+2. Happened with the TUam bypass.

    No it didnt on that scheme . They had to reapply for 2+2 and go through the part 8 planning process not ABP


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    #116
    Neworder79
    Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭Neworder79


    Full page in todays Sunday Times about the state of the N5 and the major companies in the West who are warning of job losses to other countries if infrastructure isn't improved:

    “There just doesn’t seem to be any realisation at government level that failure to address the N5 situation is putting jobs at risk,” he said. “We are competing with plants in other parts of the world where there is excellent infrastructure and we are at a serious competitive disadvantage. If any one of these companies go, they will not be replaced in this part of the world.”

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article7120784.ece

    Update: Minister is today denying the related road schemes have been delayed:
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dempsey-denies-jobs-at-risk-over-bad-road-2173956.html


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    #117
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Neworder79 wrote: »
    Update: Minister is today denying the related road schemes have been delayed:
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dempsey-denies-jobs-at-risk-over-bad-road-2173956.html

    God Dempsey is such a brass necked liar :(
    I was able to confirm the Ballaghadreen bypass will go ahead; you'll see physical construction during the course of the back end of this year. I would say it's (the N5) not postponed. It is ongoing"

    Mind you so is that other FF sleeveen Finneran

    http://archives.tcm.ie/roscommonherald/2007/01/31/story5391.asp

    March 2007
    Deputy Michael Finneran recently announced that €62m was secured for the N5 Ballaghaderren bypass.

    “We have the figures for the 2007 NRA grants and the €62m for Ballaghaderreen is not mentioned on it. The only thing that has been allocated is €600,000 for the CPO stage,” said Cllr Kelly.

    No tender has been published for the Ballaghadreen bypass. There shall be no construction in 2010 and that is that.....no matter ( or especially because of ) what Dempsey says.


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    #118
    nordydan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭nordydan


    http://www.regdesign.com/PDF_Files/Project-Update-and-Clarification-13-05-10.pdf


    The N5 Westport-Bohola scheme has been split, due to the rejection of the N26 scheme. And as such we are looking at basically the original Westport-Castlebar scheme again


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    #119
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    It's also probably worth mentioning Dempsey has promised that a section of the N5 will start construction this year. I dont belive him mind you.
    I was able to confirm the Ballaghadreen bypass will go ahead; you'll see physical construction during the course of the back end of this year. I would say it's (the N5) not postponed

    link


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    #120
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    tech2 wrote: »
    It's also probably worth mentioning Dempsey has promised that a section of the N5 will start construction this year.

    Fred Barry confirmed that Dempsey was lying although Fred will start a tender process for some roads this year in the hope of having a few quid next year. He will tender for Longford but not Ballaghadreen.

    April 7th. Fred Barry explains situation

    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=TRJ20100407.xml&Page=2&Ex=278#N278
    The current multi-annual capital plan allows for discretionary money next year which we hope to use to build some of the smaller bypasses that have been planned for some time, including Belturbet, Longford along the N5, Tralee and a couple of junctions on the southern ring-road in Cork. We will pursue the tendering process for these projects this year but will have to await next year’s budget before awarding contracts.

    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=TRJ20100407.xml&Page=2&Ex=287#N287
    If the money is available, work will commence on the Ballaghaderreen bypass but it is not in our spending plan at present.

    May 10. Dempsey Lying.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dempsey-denies-jobs-at-risk-over-bad-road-2173956.html
    "I was able to confirm the Ballaghadreen bypass will go ahead; you'll see physical construction during the course of the back end of this year.


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    #121
    Neworder79
    Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭Neworder79


    MWR interviewed Cowen about the N5 when he was in Ballina on Friday. He said he is meeting the Mayo industrial group in July.

    But he tried to downplay the importance of the road with his trademark waffle about the macro economic conditions and how their work on the economy is of more importance than infrastructure.


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