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Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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Comments

  • #1442
    Teddy455
    Closed Accounts Posts: 181 ✭✭Teddy455


    westtip wrote: »
    I wonder woudl it make any sense to timetable trains on this line as two separate branch lines, I don't think this line really works as a through route - from Limerick- Galway - it is essentially a southern branch line into Limerick and a nothern branch line into Galway. Would this line work better if a shuttle service applied throughout the day from Gort to Limerick and from Gort to Galway. OK the loss of through services would take out the "intercity" route - and the whole issue of the corridor connecting two cities - but in reality doesn't the line actually work as two branch lines into either Limerick or Galway and the through route traffic is very limited, Irish rail won't provide data on parts of the line due to commercial sensitivity but anecodotal evidence on this forum seems to suggest the through intercity traffic of passengers is very limited. Could a better service operate with the shuttle idea?

    It might work but it could raise costs and slow commute times for people commuting from places like ennis and crusheen to galway.


  • #1443
    CIE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    westtip wrote: »
    I wonder woudl it make any sense to timetable trains on this line as two separate branch lines, I don't think this line really works as a through route - from Limerick- Galway - it is essentially a southern branch line into Limerick and a nothern branch line into Galway. Would this line work better if a shuttle service applied throughout the day from Gort to Limerick and from Gort to Galway. OK the loss of through services would take out the "intercity" route - and the whole issue of the corridor connecting two cities - but in reality doesn't the line actually work as two branch lines into either Limerick or Galway and the through route traffic is very limited, Irish rail won't provide data on parts of the line due to commercial sensitivity but anecodotal evidence on this forum seems to suggest the through intercity traffic of passengers is very limited. Could a better service operate with the shuttle idea?
    If the "through traffic is very limited", then why does the X51 with its hourly service even exist...? If tilt-train non-stop service started running hourly between the two cities (or even bi-hourly), would that put a dent in route X51's business perhaps? And on top of that, we still have the 51 (which runs through to Cork on a number of trips) running hourly. It's not the railway; it's the rolling stock, and the signalling with that if same does not permit high top speeds (60 mph limit for no reason given).


  • #1444
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    yeah keep repeating it someone might believe you. That line is not suitable for high speed running and never will be without massive unjustifed expenditure. Even so the coach would still be faster and more flexible. End of.


  • #1445
    Teddy455
    Closed Accounts Posts: 181 ✭✭Teddy455


    i think there should be a service from Cork - Galway as it would be good for commutters on those city corridors instead of a 3 train switch. like for Charleville and commuters to Limerick and traffic from Cork - Limerick - Galway without having to switch at Limerick Junction and again at Limerick or visa versa.


  • #1446
    CIE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    corktina wrote: »
    yeah keep repeating it someone might believe you. That line is not suitable for high speed running and never will be without massive unjustif(i)ed expenditure. Even so the coach would still be faster and more flexible. End of.
    Keep repeating it like someone might believe you. Just because you say it's not "suitable for high-speed running" doesn't mean it's not; that especially goes for the operator if said operator makes such a claim. One certainly cannot prove an alignment's capabilities when one runs commuter DMUs on there in what is supposed to be intercity service.

    Do you know what tilt trains do? Hint: it has to do with curved alignments...another hint: it also has to do with traditional alignments. Tilt trains are not built for super-high-speed 300-km/h alignments; they run non-tilting trains there. A tilting train with high acceleration should easily raise average speeds, even if you (absurdly) stick yourself with a 161-km/h top speed instead of 200 km/h.

    It's a little hard (and somewhat hypocritical, with all due respect) to talk of "unjustified expenditure" in the face of the "competition" having had nine to ten times the cost per unit length spent on it. For an "upgrade" that won't reach into the strata of such costs (because the costs of the motorway are already in the realm of the costs of the 300 km/h railway alignments), the line in question can perform at the levels I described...and certainly in the face of rising petrol and diesel costs, justification for more motorway spending is what is going to have the larger spotlight shone on it.


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  • #1447
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Tilting trains on the WRC? I thought I'd heard it all, obviously not....


  • #1448
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    CIE wrote: »
    That sure does not sound like something in line with deregulation proper. Removing the vice-like grip of CIE on the railways and allowing private railway operators to come into existence and compete would be a deregulating move.

    Not in Fine Gael's eyes. Wait and see but FG have been no friend to the railways in the past - even in good times they wouldn't spend Christmas.


  • #1449
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Teddy455 wrote: »
    It might work but it could raise costs and slow commute times for people commuting from places like ennis and crusheen to galway.

    I doubt there are that many. If the service were improved for the greater number of people using the split branch line timetable it may lead to more using the line.


  • #1450
    kildarecommuter
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭kildarecommuter


    dynamick wrote: »
    Save money on expensive trams by buying buses instead. Use savings to pay SIPTU & the NBRU who in turn pay for the labour party's election campaign. Nice one.

    The tram drivers are trade union members too(SIPTU) and the NBRU doesnt contribute to Labour.


  • #1451
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    CIE wrote: »
    Keep repeating it like someone might believe you. Just because you say it's not "suitable for high-speed running" doesn't mean it's not; that especially goes for the operator if said operator makes such a claim. One certainly cannot prove an alignment's capabilities when one runs commuter DMUs on there in what is supposed to be intercity service.

    Do you know what tilt trains do? Hint: it has to do with curved alignments...another hint: it also has to do with traditional alignments. Tilt trains are not built for super-high-speed 300-km/h alignments; they run non-tilting trains there. A tilting train with high acceleration should easily raise average speeds, even if you (absurdly) stick yourself with a 161-km/h top speed instead of 200 km/h.

    It's a little hard (and somewhat hypocritical, with all due respect) to talk of "unjustified expenditure" in the face of the "competition" having had nine to ten times the cost per unit length spent on it. For an "upgrade" that won't reach into the strata of such costs (because the costs of the motorway are already in the realm of the costs of the 300 km/h railway alignments), the line in question can perform at the levels I described...and certainly in the face of rising petrol and diesel costs, justification for more motorway spending is what is going to have the larger spotlight shone on it.

    Are you actually serious or just trying to wind us up?

    I presume you have a knowledge of this line and therefore know how it was built originally and rebuilt recently? You do know the area it serves? And as for your road reference, don't you realise that roads get more spend because there are more of them and it is internationally the most popular form of transport. Roads aren't "competition", they are a fact of life since the goddamn Romans starting building them.

    Here's a history lesson....

    Roads built for carts. Canals replace them with barges. Railways replace Canals with speed and capacity. Roads conquer railways after the invention of the car. Railways retract and offer higher speeds to compete with certain road journeys. Which bit is missing in Ireland? (and your tilting train won't solve the WRC dilemma)


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  • #1452
    CIE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Are you actually serious or just trying to wind us up?

    I presume you have a knowledge of this line and therefore know how it was built originally and rebuilt recently? You do know the area it serves? And as for your road reference, don't you realise that roads get more spend because there are more of them and it is internationally the most popular form of transport. Roads aren't "competition", they are a fact of life since the goddamn Romans starting building them.

    Here's a history lesson....

    Roads built for carts. Canals replace them with barges. Railways replace Canals with speed and capacity. Roads conquer railways after the invention of the car. Railways retract and offer higher speeds to compete with certain road journeys. Which bit is missing in Ireland? (and your tilting train won't solve the WRC dilemma)
    The bit where Ireland moves forward is the missing bit. You can all sit back and be slaves to Germany and the other bigger EU countries if you want, and lament your chance to actually not be Luddites.

    Funny how phrases like "WRC dilemma" suddenly pop up without a definition. What is the dilemma, tell us? I say if there is a dilemma, it's where you have built a modern railway (with concrete sleepers, welded rails and all) and operate at speeds comparable to 4-4-0s before they were rebuilt with Belpaire fireboxes and superheaters.

    Tilt trains, again, operate on traditional railways; yes, railways that have existed for one and three quarter centuries; and they maximise running speeds on those railways without re-aligning them. Trying to pretend that there is a missing dimension beyond that is either not having knowledge of the subject or denying such knowledge when presented. While people on this thread pontificate about "WRC dilemmas" and "greenways" in an empty manner, you have triple-digit average speeds on traditional railways in Germany with tilting ICE-Ts, average speeds between 150 and 175 km/h on Sweden's traditional railways (with the X2000), and even the decades-old Intercity 125 (diesel, non-tilting) achieved average speeds of up to 168 km/h. Oh yeah; while Ireland is being dictated to to be "austere", Germany's expanding their railway spending.


  • #1453
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    CIE wrote: »
    The bit where Ireland moves forward is the missing bit. You can all sit back and be slaves to Germany and the other bigger EU countries if you want, and lament your chance to actually not be Luddites.

    Funny how phrases like "WRC dilemma" suddenly pop up without a definition. What is the dilemma, tell us? I say if there is a dilemma, it's where you have built a modern railway (with concrete sleepers, welded rails and all) and operate at speeds comparable to 4-4-0s before they were rebuilt with Belpaire fireboxes and superheaters.

    Tilt trains, again, operate on traditional railways; yes, railways that have existed for one and three quarter centuries; and they maximise running speeds on those railways without re-aligning them. Trying to pretend that there is a missing dimension beyond that is either not having knowledge of the subject or denying such knowledge when presented. While people on this thread pontificate about "WRC dilemmas" and "greenways" in an empty manner, you have triple-digit average speeds on traditional railways in Germany with tilting ICE-Ts, average speeds between 150 and 175 km/h on Sweden's traditional railways (with the X2000), and even the decades-old Intercity 125 (diesel, non-tilting) achieved average speeds of up to 168 km/h. Oh yeah; while Ireland is being dictated to to be "austere", Germany's expanding their railway spending.

    Im not a slave to Germany or a luddite. But your thinking is bonkers and I say that in a manner that isn't empty. The WRC is not a traditional railway in any European sense. I'm desperatley trying to visualise Limerick - Athenry with an Inter city 125 blasting up and down it at 168 km/h. (after Athenry it gets worse)

    Irish railways suffer from a lot of nonsense speed restrictions, but the current WRC speed is based on the fact that it was and always will be a very poorly built railway. No amount of fancy rolling stock will take from that. If you want higher rail speeds between Limerick and Galway, you need a complete rebuild.


  • #1454
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Im not a slave to Germany or a luddite. But your thinking is bonkers and I say that in a manner that isn't empty. The WRC is not a traditional railway in any European sense. I'm desperatley trying to visualise Limerick - Athenry with an Inter city 125 blasting up and down it at 168 km/h. (after Athenry it gets worse)

    Irish railways suffer from a lot of nonsense speed restrictions, but the current WRC speed is based on the fact that it was and always will be a very poorly built railway. No amount of fancy rolling stock will take from that. If you want higher rail speeds between Limerick and Galway, you need a complete rebuild.

    and to do that you need tens of thousands of potential passengers, who arent there....we have no money and to invest massively in this line and tilting trains fro it for the benefit mainly of free-pass holding passngers would have the "Powers that Be" pulling down the shutters on Ireland right away.


  • #1455
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    corktina wrote: »
    and to do that you need tens of thousands of potential passengers, who arent there....we have no money and to invest massively in this line and tilting trains fro it for the benefit mainly of free-pass holding passngers would have the "Powers that Be" pulling down the shutters on Ireland right away.

    Awh I wanted a go in a tilting train!


  • #1456
    dermo88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭dermo88


    I have to analyse at some key phrases in this, and return to this. Have you registered with the ladies over at the rotary club who fantasise about rail transport, or are is there grounding in reality at Planet CIE.

    "Ireland moves forward" (chuckles)
    "You can all sit back and be slaves to Germany" (Who paid the cohesion funding, and paid for the upgrading, rebuilding and reconditioning of the system)
    "Luddites" Oh lovely. I have to look up a new word. No, I am definitely not a Luddite. You mean I have to throw stones at buses and cars on the N18 so the railway can survive.

    "4-4-0s before they were rebuilt with Belpaire fireboxes and superheaters"

    Bingo - a trainspotter.

    "Tilt trains, again, operate on traditional railways; yes, railways that have existed for one and three quarter centuries; and they maximise running speeds on those railways without re-aligning them"

    Tilters are used on medium traffic main lines. No route in Ireland justifies the additional expense. If a line has level crossings, tight curves, steep gradients, tilting technology will make very little difference. A speed restriction is still a speed restriction, and Microsoft Train Simulator is a toy, its not reality.

    Did I tell you a secret?- the cows look small because they are far away

    Oh yeah; while Ireland is being dictated to to be "austere", Germany's expanding their railway spending.

    Germany - core.
    Ireland - periphery.

    That was why Ireland got cohesion funding, to upgrade a peripheral economy to European standards. Unfortunately, it was siphoned off into swopping rooms for more expensive rooms, which became more expensive again, then some "clever" people thought they could make everyone very happy by making them more expensive again. By the time they became too expensive nobody cared anymore, because everyone thought that they were going to get more expensive again. .......Oh in short, its called irrational exhuberance.


    And Greece - their OSE railway system is having their spending curtailed. So I think a look at Greece rather than Germany is more in tune with the likely reality.

    It is 2011. The economy is 25% smaller than it was in 2007 and the same size as it was in 2002-3.

    As for Fine Gael. Let them sort the unholy mess left to them by Fianna Fail. If it means closing a railway or two, and privatising lines which do not work under CIE, so be it...not soviet, I'd like to see what the CIE unions do. The likely reality is that a privatised network could be better run, but the scaremongering from CIE unions, and management has mislead the public into believing - that "there is no alternative to CIE", that "there is no alternative to CIE". Which is rubbish, as proven by experience in Germany, Denmark, Sweden and even Britain for that matter.

    I am not insulting the workers there, I am certainly targetting the managers and champagne socialist union representatives.

    Now if I see that phrase - "argumentum ad hominem", I may take it you have been expelled from the ladies rotary club also? I'll assume its Hugh Heffner. If so welcome to the forum, and I will try to be civil. I may be abrasive, but it really is nothing personal.


  • #1457
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    CIE wrote: »
    If the "through traffic is very limited", then why does the X51 with its hourly service even exist...? If tilt-train non-stop service started running hourly between the two cities (or even bi-hourly), would that put a dent in route X51's business perhaps? And on top of that, we still have the 51 (which runs through to Cork on a number of trips) running hourly. It's not the railway; it's the rolling stock, and the signalling with that if same does not permit high top speeds (60 mph limit for no reason given).

    I will only deal with your first sentence, through traffic is limited on the railway because of service levels and limited demand plus a better service ahievable by bus. A two hour journey is uncompetitive with the X51, both in terms of price, speed and frequency. Increasing service levels is not justified by the volume of traffic, even if all the bus journies were transferred. The level of bus services is also probably unjustified, I don't know what capacity the X51 is working to, perhaps others might comment, but the cost of one bus in energy terms compared to one train service is highly competitive on environmental terms (a bus from Limerick to Galway will I presume use less diesel then a twenty ton train (don't come back to tell me its 18 ton or something stupid - I am not a trains spotter and wouldn't know a DMU from a SVU). The x 51 is an express service are you suggesting that to compete the train service needs an express service to compete with the X51 plus a stopping service!? That would go down well on every halting stop that was part of the "community based campaign to restore rail services on this strategic piece of infrastructure" I use quotes as this is the kind of babble we got from WOT.

    Your point about tilting trains etc on the rail line - bizare, surreal and ridiculous for all the reasons more eloquently outlined by others.


  • #1458
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    yeah i didnt read it all either!

    Who in their right mind would advocate hi tech tilting trains for a rural byway which are of a higher spec than the freight loco + Mk4 (which arent as good as the mk3) used on the premier main line in the country?

    PS id say EACH Carriage is more than 20 tonnes Westie....

    which is he ? Tom, Bert, or Bill Huggins ?


  • #1459
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    corktina wrote: »
    yeah i didnt read it all either!

    Who in their right mind would advocate hi tech tilting trains for a rural byway which are of a higher spec than the freight loco + Mk4 (which arent as good as the mk3) used on the premier main line in the country?

    PS id say EACH Carriage is more than 20 tonnes Westie....

    which is he ? Tom, Bert, or Bill Huggins ?

    Its interesting how the tree huggers go on about trains been greener but they never say oh BTW you would x litres of diesel to chug a train from Limerick to Galway in two hours and x-y litres to send a bus on the same journey in one hour.

    What would be interesting on the WRC southern branch line is to on the back of an envelope work out - how many litres of diesel are used by week, divide it by the number of passengers carried - and do the same for the all the buses on the same route and work out which format of transport actually is greener? I don't know what the answer would my gut reaction is the train is using a lot more fuel per passenger than the bus. Of course when it comes to mass movements of people in and out of cities - where trains really do work for commuter services the story may be different.


  • #1460
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Im not a slave to Germany or a luddite. But your thinking is bonkers and I say that in a manner that isn't empty. The WRC is not a traditional railway in any European sense. I'm desperatley trying to visualise Limerick - Athenry with an Inter city 125 blasting up and down it at 168 km/h. (after Athenry it gets worse)

    Irish railways suffer from a lot of nonsense speed restrictions, but the current WRC speed is based on the fact that it was and always will be a very poorly built railway. No amount of fancy rolling stock will take from that. If you want higher rail speeds between Limerick and Galway, you need a complete rebuild.

    Fantastic post DWC - You've really made me smile!


  • #1461
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    With Leo Varadkar in charge of Transport I think we can safely say the WRC northern branch line is a gonner.


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  • #1462
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    westtip wrote: »
    With Leo Veradkur in charge of Transport I think we can safely say the WRC northern branch line is a gonner.

    And the rest. I understand that his knowledge of Transport is commensurate with his interest in Sport. An arrogant twit to boot, so much so that he could almost be a clone of Noel Dempsey. :rolleyes:


  • #1463
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Oul Leo won't have much say in the WRC. The Tuam decision will be made above his head.

    FFS I'm sounding like a WOT head, but in all seriousness I still believe that Tuam will be reached despite my dislike of the idea. It will happen before MN/DU.

    As usual I will hold my hands up if I'm wrong.


  • #1464
    dynamick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭dynamick


    Not so great. On these numbers, the subsidy is now about €150 per journey. A chap living along the line commuting in and out 5 days a week would need around 70K a year in subsidies. Enough to buy a new BMW 5 series with tax, fuel and insurance. Every year. For every %&#ing passenger.

    However, maybe all is not lost, with 4 Fine Gael boys including the tee-shock himself in Mayo, we may well see this vital piece of infrastructure completed.
    Rail route numbers low

    PASSENGERS NUMBERS on the long-anticipated first phase of the Western Rail Corridor are falling far short of projections made in the business case for the route.

    In March last year, the €106 million route from Ennis to Athenry – connecting Galway to Limerick by rail – was opened after years of lobbying in the west.

    However, figures provided by the Department of Transport in response to a Freedom of Information request show that passenger numbers between May and September last year averaged 4,800 a month.

    ...more


  • #1465
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Services are below target but frequency is being raised to 6 per direction per day - if only they had thought of that on the South Wexford or Limerick-Ballybrophy :D They were supposed to have started out strongly so must be really whistling past the graveyard now.

    CIE is a repeat spoofer - how would a tilting train deal with a 25mph or 40mph SR associated with a level crossing or an accommodation crossing? Read the IE network statement. In fairness a couple of those are being removed, but you could remove a lot more (not to mention do some flood prevention) with the cost of obtaining stock like Deutsche Bahn Class 605.

    Teddy455 - I honestly think the number of people using Crusheen will be negligible. Oranmore has a chance given local pop density but it's also on the Dublin line.

    Westtip - to a large extent the Ennis-Limerick section operates in much the same way you talk about Gort - that's how the sixth rotation is coming into play by bringing a train from Galway to link up with an existing commuter service.

    Incidentally, the mention earlier of buses. I think Expressways weigh somewhere about 20 tonnes. 2700 class cars weigh 42 tonnes. A 22000 car weighs 63 tonnes, and there was talk about putting three of them on the Limerick-Galway with over 200 seats per set. Short of forcing BE off the road I dunno how that's going to work.


  • #1466
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    dynamick wrote: »
    Not so great. On these numbers, the subsidy is now about €150 per journey. A chap living along the line commuting in and out 5 days a week would need around 70K a year in subsidies. Enough to buy a new BMW 5 series with tax, fuel and insurance. Every year. For every %&#ing passenger.

    However, maybe all is not lost, with 4 Fine Gael boys including the tee-shock himself in Mayo, we may well see this vital piece of infrastructure completed.

    Wow those figures are even lower than I expected - and what i am wondering is this an aggregate figure of circa 65,000 that actually covers the WHOLE LINE, If those only using Ennis - Limerick (the existing commuter line) and those using Athenry - Galway (existing line) are included - the number of through "intercity" journies must be abysmal. If the breakdown of figures from Athenry to Ennis can be got - the picture will I think be even more gloomy. The article isn't entirely clear on this it doesn't clearly state the 65,000 is just Ennis/Athenry, as said if its the whole line, it is a disaster for this project and even if its the linking new bit of the line - it still does not make good reading for supporters of phase 2 and 3. (remember use it or lose it).

    I disagree about the My constituency thing I don't think it will be a big factor in the future decision re northern branch line, I think and hope for the time being that kind of nonsense will leave the irish political stage and actually I think Enda coming from Mayo will work against this project as - he for one will definitely not want to have the finger pointed at him saying there you go local priorities over national priorities. He will be more cautious than anyone in this regard.

    Its also interesting the FOI request had to go through the DOT, Irish Rail where only too quick to tell me that they (Irish Rail) were not covered by the FOI and would not provide the kind of information referred to in the Irish Times article. The cat is now out the bag. We shall see what happens over the next few months.

    Dynamik you may have slightly overstated the subsidy at €150 per journey - the Article states the line subsidy is 2.4 million - if there are 65000 journies made on the line - thats 2.4million/65k = €37 per journey - still ludicrous - and on your five times a week return journey - 10 a week = €370 per week subsidy for a regular commuter (for which apparently there was a huge latent demamd - it seems not). However what does need clarification is the 65,000 journies the aggregate figure for the total line - I am trying to get this from DOT.


  • #1467
    dynamick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭dynamick


    westtip wrote: »
    Wow those figures are even lower than I expected - and I think the figure given is the blanket figure of circa 65,000 actually covers the WHOLE LINE, those only using Ennis - Limerick (the existing commuter line) and those using Athenry - Galway (existing line) are included - the number of through "intercity" journies must be abysmal. If the breakdown of figures from Athenry to Ennis can be got - the picture will I think be even more gloomy.
    I think you may have the wrong end of the stick here.

    Passenger numbers for Ennis-Limerick were reported 3 yrs ago at a healthy enough 220K/year. the key factor was that Ennis-LImerick was faster by rail than bus or car. Also there was good business for Ennis-Dublin. The new section (Ennis-Athenry) appears to be carrying 60-65K additional passengers at a capital cost of 7m per year and an operational loss of 3m per year.

    --edit--
    The 2.4m annual operational loss was based on 200K journeys per year in 5 years. However the line only has 60K journeys. If we take average fare at a tenner, that's an additional loss of 1.4m/year. So it's conservative to estimate the annual operational loss at 3m/year

    The capital cost is a well document 106m. Over 30 years @5%, that's a repayment of 6.8m per year.

    capital cost plus interest plus operational loss will exceed 10m/year.
    divide €10m by 60K passengers and you get a subsidy of €166/trip


  • #1468
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Thanks Dynamik very good points. I think the numbers for Ennis Limerick may have tumbled in the past three years. I have got an email from Irish Rail to say the aggregate figures for Limerick - Galway in 2010 are 110,000 reproduced below with names removed - it actually came from Barry Kenny's PA

    From: yyyy yyyyy [mailto:yyyy.yyyyy@irishrail.ie]
    Sent: 04 February 2011 11:57
    To: XXXXXX
    Subject: RE: user figures for the Ennis to Athenry line

    Hi XXXX
    Total passenger journeys between Limerick and Galway for 2010 were 110,000. This in line with predictions
    We do not have any broken down figures available

    Kind regards,
    YYYY

    So the figures you quoted of three years have already halved.

    Whichever way these numbers are cut and massaged there is very little positive news in it for West on Track - all their arguments about the latent demand for this service have now been washed out into the Shannon Estuary. I don't expect even West on Track to put out one of their press releases on this with a positive spin.


  • #1469
    OurLadyofKnock
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 558 ✭✭✭OurLadyofKnock


    westtip wrote: »

    As usual I will hold my hands up if I'm wrong.

    bog_brother.jpg?t=1299867555


  • #1470
    dermo88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭dermo88


    It did'nt take long did it?

    "Build it and they will come"
    "Dublin is an aberration that needs to be tamed"

    The passenger figures PROVE what many of us here have stated all along. I for one think its a dark day for rail transport in Ireland.

    Shamwari stated - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=70792488#post70792488

    And I quote: I'd like to see an end to the ridiculous nonesense being peddled that one message board and a few trainspotters are being held up as pariahs for the wrongs of the railway. In fact, your rantings here are makes you little better than they are. The very notion that such a small group can control railways for their interest to the detriment of the entire nation is hilarious.

    Not quite, but lets analyse this. The failure of the Western Rail Corridor will be held up as an example to prevent further investment in the rail network. The silence from the ladies over at the rotary club is DEAFENING. What I shame I can't drop in for some tea and cucumber sandwiches and gloat - "Told you so"

    The likes of Guckian peddling railroad gick to county councillors and failed politicians also does the rail transport network no favours. WHY?

    Because when a viable project is proposed, the transport minister will roll their eyes and say -

    "Oh Christ, its another of those wierdoes again"

    It took less than 7 years from objection to construction to failure, and its a shame. But, remember who told you first, who warned you first, and WHY those objections were made.


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  • #1471
    OurLadyofKnock
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 558 ✭✭✭OurLadyofKnock


    Has their been any reaction from WoT to these figures? How they are going to spin this around is beyond me.


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