Found an old group photo in the family attic with De Valera

o1s1n · 08-05-2013 9:50am #1

Hey guys, would any of you have any information on this photograph?

We found it in a family attic. It had been sitting up there for decades unknown to us.

I had a couple of great aunts who were in Cumann na mBan. My gran was saying they're in this photo, along with three other relatives of ours.

Any idea where it might be? What the reason for it is? I see it's signed by Lafayette in Dublin.

Robus · 12-05-2013 9:42am

Can you post a higher res photo of the medal worn by the lady above and to the right of dev?

Jellybaby1 · 13-05-2013 12:56am

The chaps standing at the back also seem to be wearing a medal. I've no idea where this is. It was taken by a photographic studio, looks something like Lafayette? Studios I think, it's written bottom right. Maybe it could be researched at the National Library.

Victor · 13-05-2013 1:08am

I wonder if the building is a hospital - see the beds in the upper windows. I strongly suspect the photo is taken in front of a doorway, however, the facade isn't well kept an may be in a yard or similar. The building is likely to be early 20th century based on the doorway style and the fact that the building face is quite worn and Dev is probably 50-60 years old.

o1s1n wrote: »

I see it's signed by Lafayette in Dublin.

Probably the photographers: http://www.lafayettephotography.com/Main.aspx?Id=6

Is there a date or reference number?

666irishguy · 13-05-2013 1:31am

Could it be a commemoration of the rising? I'd take a good guess the medals are war of independence medals, might explain why they are on show that day. The building might be the hospital that was there before St James' Hospital which was occuppied during the rising.

Robus · 13-05-2013 6:21pm

Dev. has a war of independence & 1916 on, so it’s after 1941, No 50th anniversary no it’s before 1966, a close up of the other medals will probably confirm a military commemoration, if it’s a 16 on a female ( two to Dev’s left has a pair of medals),that will narrow down the search and may give a name.
Why so many women versus men if military though, and why the kids?
The connection may be a location, such as a home town rather than the location of the action?

Victor · 13-05-2013 8:34pm

Robus wrote: »

Why so many women versus men if military though,

That would fit with a Cumann na mBan event.

and why the kids?

Convenience.

Robus · 13-05-2013 8:45pm

Victor wrote: »

That would fit with a Cumann na mBan event.

Convenience.

Agreed but Cumann na mBan were as equally rewarded with pensions and medals as Irish Volunteers & Citizen Army (although not equally allowed entry, by Dev. in particular, in the 1916 garrisons), and as such the ration of each sex with medals would be the same if the group are based on a group of participants from home town for example.
If it’s only purely a Cumann na mBan event why the men in the photo?
Come on Oisin, any chance of enlargements of the medals

Cork boy 55 · 13-05-2013 9:15pm

Robus wrote: »

Can you post a higher res photo of the medal worn by the lady above and to the right of dev?

Robus wrote: »

................

Come on Oisin, any chance of enlargements of the medals

Click on the photo in the OP
This takes you to photobucket.com
Use the "view original " button twice

This gives a better view

Robus · 14-05-2013 5:48pm

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Click on the photo in the OP
This takes you to photobucket.com
Use the "view original " button twice
This gives a better view

Sorry my bad (didn’t know you could do that.
The lady up and left of Dev. has a 1916 & war of independence, the lady to the right war of independence, lads back row WOI also, one Comrac……………so it’s definitely military………probably anti treaty side…………..I still think with a location in common……..OP do you want to give me a surname or a town and I will check my lists?

Jellybaby1 · 14-05-2013 8:07pm

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Click on the photo in the OP
This takes you to photobucket.com
Use the "view original " button twice

This gives a better view

I can't see that button, could you direct me to it or do I need to be signed up for Photobucket?

Robus · 14-05-2013 8:22pm

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I can't see that button, could you direct me to it or do I need to be signed up for Photobucket?

When I clicked on the OP’s photograph, it opened in photo bucket with a magnifying glass button in the bottom right hand side. I hit that symbol twice.

Jellybaby1 · 14-05-2013 8:35pm

Got it, thank you.

o1s1n · 18-05-2013 7:11pm

Sorry guys, meant to get back to this thread sooner.

Thanks for the info. I've attached the picture to this post. Can zoom in a bit better. It's not as high res as it could have been (my mam took the scan unfortunately!). The original photo is crazy high quality. You can use a magnifying glass it look really closely at it. Will see if I can get someone to scan it up again.

o1s1n · 18-05-2013 7:27pm

Victor wrote: »

Is there a date or reference number?

Unfortunately not! Only thing on it is a hand signature from Lafayette. Might pop them off an email and see what they make of it.

Robus wrote: »

Sorry my bad (didn’t know you could do that.
The lady up and left of Dev. has a 1916 & war of independence, the lady to the right war of independence, lads back row WOI also, one Comrac……………so it’s definitely military………probably anti treaty side…………..I still think with a location in common……..OP do you want to give me a surname or a town and I will check my lists?

Interesting stuff! The family name was Guilfoyle. I had two great uncles involved in the rising. My Gran would know a lot more, but one was called Sean. I'm pretty sure this is the pair of them from the Wiki page

John (Sean) Guilfoyle (1893–1943) A Lieutenant in "A" Company during Easter Week 1916, and fought in the Mount Street Bridge area.
Joseph Guilfoyle [2] (1897–1973) Joined the Irish Volunteers in 1913 at The Rotunda. Fought during Easter Week 1916 at Boland's Mill under Commandant Éamonn de Valera's Third Battalion, "B" Company.

Ages ago I tried to see if I could find any info about them by searching the national archives 1911 census and found the following -

Surname Forename Townland/Street DED County Age Sex
Guilfoyle Annie Fingal Place Arran Quay Dublin 20 F
Guilfoyle Joseph Fingal Place Arran Quay Dublin 14 M
Guilfoyle Thomas Fingal Place Arran Quay Dublin 47 M
Guilfoyle Bridget Fingal Place Arran Quay Dublin 21 F
Guilfoyle John Fingal Place Arran Quay Dublin 18 M
Guilfoyle Jennie Fingal Place Arran Quay Dublin 9 F
Guilfoyle Anne Fingal Place Arran Quay Dublin 47 F
Guilfoyle Mary Fingal Place Arran Quay Dublin 23 F

The four women on the far left are the ones which are relations. I'm pretty sure two of them are sisters of Sean and Joseph (so their names should be in the list above)

Robus · 19-05-2013 10:17am

Here is a bit more to look at,

Guilfoyle Joe see page 40 of "Who’s Who in the War Of Independence"
Guilfoyle John Was entered on the National Army Census of 12th November 2012 in Thurles (Tipperary) Aged 18
Guilfoyle John Was entered on the National Army Census of 12th November 2012 in Rathdowney (Laois) Aged 20
Guilfoyle John 47 Pleasant's Street, : Frongoch Roll Call, Sean O Mahony's book "Frongoch: University of Revolution"
Guilfoyle John of 47 Pleasants Street :Occupation Electrician was received at Wakefield Detention Barracks on 6th May 1916 from Ballsbridge
Guilfoyle Jos of 47 Pleasants Street :Occupation Stationer was received at Wakefield Detention Barracks on 6th May 1916 from Ballsbridge
Guilfoyle Joseph Was entered on the National Army Census of 12th November 2012 in Clonmel (Tipperary) Aged 22
Guilfoyle Joseph is listed in the Anvil Books "official" but incomplete Roll Of Honour for the Boland's Mills Garrison, .
Guilfoyle Joseph A Company Third Battalion, Signed the Easter Week Rising, 1916, Roll of Honour, Boland's Mills Garrison
Guilfoyle Joseph 41 Pleasant's Street, : Frongoch Roll Call, Sean O Mahony's book "Frongoch: University of Revolution"
Guilfoyle Robert Was entered on the National Army Census of 12th November 2012 in Abbeyfeale (Kerry) Aged 24
Guilfoyle Thomas Was entered on the National Army Census of 12th November 2012 in Transport, Ennis (Clare) Aged 42

Robus · 19-05-2013 10:27am

o1s1n wrote: »

The four women on the far left are the ones which are relations. I'm pretty sure two of them are sisters of Sean and Joseph (so their names should be in the list above)

Are these the ones to the left of Dev , including the lady with the 1916 medal ?

Whats her name?

Robus · 19-05-2013 12:38pm

o1s1n wrote: »

The four women on the far left are the ones which are relations. I'm pretty sure two of them are sisters of Sean and Joseph (so their names should be in the list above)

http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS1299.pdf#page=6

The link above is a about a Sean Guilfoyle living in Pleasant street with sisters in Cumann Na mBan.

o1s1n · 20-05-2013 12:36am

Oh wow, that's some amount of info Robus, thanks! I'll have a read through that document now.

The women in the photo that my gran pointed out were the ones ringed below. The only name I remember was Annie (as my gran was named after her) - would have been her aunt. So the women in the photo are my great-grandaunts).

Edit - my gran's brother was called Sean. Didn't dawn on me who he was named after.

It's really amazing reading all this as it joins together snippets of stories I was told when I was a kid. (for example them fighting in Boland's Mills)

My grandmother told stories about her mother talking to the Black and Tans as a child when they were raiding the house, looking for guns. One of them was looking in a press and she said 'you'll only find cobwebs in there mister!'

They also had shots fired indiscriminately into the house on one occasion.

There was one story where one of the lads (I'm not sure if it was Sean or Joseph) accidentally discharged his revolver while walking down the steps of the Customs House.

He was then in hospital when Michael Collins was assassinated - I've always wondered if that story was true or not. (I'm sure there should be a record of it somewhere if it happened)

My gran had all of their medals, some uniforms and diaries in the house up until the 70s or 80s. It all went missing at some point though

not sure if it was robbed or what. Always been raging I never got to see it.

o1s1n · 24-05-2013 7:47pm

Robus wrote: »

http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS1299.pdf#page=6

The link above is a about a Sean Guilfoyle living in Pleasant street with sisters in Cumann Na mBan.

Hah, well here's an interesting development. My mam was out in my grans this evening and showed her this document.

When she saw the author she immediately said 'ah! that's my uncle Kit!'

kellyeoin · 16-02-2014 2:18pm

o1s1n wrote: »

Oh wow, that's some amount of info Robus, thanks! I'll have a read through that document now.

The women in the photo that my gran pointed out were the ones ringed below. The only name I remember was Annie (as my gran was named after her) - would have been her aunt. So the women in the photo are my great-grandaunts).

Edit - my gran's brother was called Sean. Didn't dawn on me who he was named after.

It's really amazing reading all this as it joins together snippets of stories I was told when I was a kid. (for example them fighting in Boland's Mills)

My grandmother told stories about her mother talking to the Black and Tans as a child when they were raiding the house, looking for guns. One of them was looking in a press and she said 'you'll only find cobwebs in there mister!'

They also had shots fired indiscriminately into the house on one occasion.

There was one story where one of the lads (I'm not sure if it was Sean or Joseph) accidentally discharged his revolver while walking down the steps of the Customs House.

He was then in hospital when Michael Collins was assassinated - I've always wondered if that story was true or not. (I'm sure there should be a record of it somewhere if it happened)

My gran had all of their medals, some uniforms and diaries in the house up until the 70s or 80s. It all went missing at some point though not sure if it was robbed or what. Always been raging I never got to see it.

Hi Oisin,

I recognise this photograph, as I have a copy of it too. Joseph Thomas (Joe) Guilfoyle (1897-1973) was my grandfather. The women circled are his sister Mary (May) Guilfoyle (in dark clothing with umbrella. 1887-1972); next to her is Joe's wife Annie (Anne) Guilfoyle (nee Kelly) (1899-1977). Directly behind her is Bridget (Bridie) Guilfoyle (1899-1953). I think the woman next to her on the edge of the photograph is, I am almost sure, Sean and Joe's other sister Anne Guilfoyle (1891-1962), or possibly Jane (Jenny) Guilfoyle (1901-1963).

The man next to Bridget is (I think) Sean Guilfoyle's son Austin (1927-1993). The woman next to him is certainly Sean's daughter Carmel Guilfoyle (1922-2013). Sean wife Mary (Mamie) Guilfoyle (nee Lawlor, 1895-1980) is seated next to de Valera on his right.

I have plenty of information on that side of the family. Would love to know how you're connected.

Best,

Eoin

kellyeoin · 16-02-2014 2:48pm

o1s1n wrote: »

Hah, well here's an interesting development. My mam was out in my grans this evening and showed her this document.

When she saw the author she immediately said 'ah! that's my uncle Kit!'

"Uncle Kit" would have been Christopher (Kit) Farrell (1889-1957). He was born in Tipperstown, Stillorgan, Dublin and married Jane (Jennie) Guilfoyle on 25 June 1923 at St. James Church, James Street, Dublin. They lived at 70 Upper Great George's Street, Dun Laoghaire, and had no children. Kit was the son of Luke Farrell (a Blacksmith) and Anne Murphy.

LondonIrish73 · 09-08-2014 10:06pm

The man next to Bridget is (I think) Sean Guilfoyle's son Austin (1927-1993). The woman next to him is certainly Sean's daughter Carmel Guilfoyle (1922-2013). Sean wife Mary (Mamie) Guilfoyle (nee Lawlor, 1895-1980) is seated next to de Valera on his right.

I think you are right about Austin and Carmel, who were my father Francis (Frank) Guilfoyles older brother and sister. But I think my gran Mamie is on De Valera's right. I was 6 when she died but recognise the face.

I have a feeling my dad is the lanky boy in front of her and Dev.

Thanks for the photo, great to see them all again.

kellyeoin · 10-08-2014 10:19am

"But I think my gran Mamie is on De Valera's right. I was 6 when she died but recognise the face."

That's right; Mamie is seated next to de Valera and wearing the light-coloured hat. Her sister-in-law Bridget Guilfoyle died in Dec 1953, so this photo must pre-date that year.

kellyeoin · 10-08-2014 8:07pm

I've asked my mother to have another look at our version of this photograph, and it's one of a pair. The other showing a much larger group including members who served in "A" Company, Third Battalion, Dublin during 1916. It was taken in October 1948, possibly after a commemorative mass at the PRO Cathedral. In addition the other Guilfoyle's already identified; Jane (Jennie) Guilfoyle is at the opposite side of the group in the second row from the front, standing directly behind the two seated women dressed in black. She died in 1963, and is buried at Deans Grange with her husband Kit Farrell.

Noel Guilfoyle · 14-11-2014 2:05pm

Hi all - I have been trying to make the connection with the other Guilfoyles. It seems there was a split during the civil war. My father Daniel Guilfoyle, b. Dublin 1909. was interned in the Curragh during the 'emergency'and told tales of his cousin, Sean or Joseph, who was went back into the 'free state' army and was one of his guards! My grandfather and Great grandfather were both Francis Joseph... tailors and originally from Nenagh. Thanks again. Noel Guilfoyle

kellyeoin · 14-11-2014 6:35pm

Hi Noel,

I'm intrigued with this information - thanks! I can't make a connection just yet, but will dig around a bit further.

According to his military pension record, Sean Guilfoyle was living in Limerick in November 1938 and released from Permanent Service in December 1940 (He died in April 1943). So I wonder was it Joseph who was one of the "guards"? I do know he was recalled for The Emergency in 1939, and is mentioned as being based at GHQ, Parkgate, Dublin in 1941. I need to dig a bit deeper to find his connections with the Curragh. He himself was interned there (Rath Internment Camp) in September 1921 after the War of Independence.

From the current information I have on the family, I don't think it's likely they were first cousins, though quite possibly second ones.

There is certainly some story to be explored. I will have a root around.

Best

Eoin

Noel Guilfoyle · 14-11-2014 7:04pm

Hi Eoin,
Thanks for responding...I have quite a bit of info on 'my' Guilfoyle line... so yes I suspect they were second or possibly even third cousins... Noel (p.s. I could email you the info I have if you like...not a very happy tale!)

kellyeoin · 14-11-2014 7:21pm

Hi Noel,

That would be great. Don't know if I'm allowed to put my actual email address on here for spam reasons, but it's my username followed by Hotmail and dot and com.

Eoin

o1s1n · 12-03-2016 4:50pm

Don't mean to dig up an old thread, but I stumbled across this today and found it pretty amazing. An interview with Joe Guilfoyle. It's so bizarre hearing words spoken from someone whom you only known from stories told by your grandmother.

https://soundcloud.com/stories-from-1916-podcast/023-joe-guilfoyle

Found an old group photo in the family attic with De Valera

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