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N8/N25/N40 - Dunkettle Interchange [under construction]

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Comments

  • #32
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,239 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Doesn't the M8 already extend to the Dunkettle Interchange? SO the motorway order is so they can alter the motorway.


  • #33
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Victor wrote: »
    Doesn't the M8 already extend to the Dunkettle Interchange? SO the motorway order is so they can alter the motorway.

    Well technically there's 400m of all-purpose N8 before the interchange.

    So they wouldn't need a motorway order unless they had to alter something beyond that 400m.


  • #34
    larryone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭larryone


    That's only for the southbound carriageway - there is a merge about 400m before the interchange. The Northbound carriageway is motorway right from the start. If they are putting in a left turning slip at the NW part of the interchange, then it will carry motorway restrictions too.


  • #35
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    This escaped my attention last spring:
    Ring road ‘will be M50 bottleneck’ if offices go ahead

    CORK’S Southern Ring Road could become a bottleneck like Dublin’s M50 if major development continues along its corridor, the National Roads Authority (NRA) has warned.

    In a detailed objection to a €200 million office plan in Mahon, Cork, which has the potential to create almost 1,500 jobs, the NRA said its experience of traffic congestion on the M50 was a key reason in its decision to appeal this project.

    The NRA has already objected to residential plans by O’Flynn Construction at Dunkettle, and by McCarthy Developments at Mahon.

    There are now fears that the authority is preparing to block future developments along the road pending the completion of the Dunkettle interchange upgrade.

    John Cleary Developments (JCD) secured planning permission from Cork City Council last month after city councillors voted unanimously to rezone the site between the Project Management building and the internal Mahon Point Shopping Centre road.

    Councillors agreed to address traffic concerns by ring-fencing some of the estimated €3m in development contributions which will be paid by JCD to build an extra lane for traffic going into the site.

    But full details of the NRA’s objection to it became available yesterday that show it is objecting on eight key grounds, including:

    * The protection of public investment in the N25’s intended transport function.

    * An over-reliance on a strategic national road to gain access to the proposed development.

    * The limited public transport services to the Mahon area.

    * And "overstated" and "inadequate" mitigation measures proposed by the developer.

    The authority acknowledged the Mahon area has been designated for development but it said the focus is excessively dependent on the use of private cars, and dependent on the national road network for access.

    The NRA said it considers JCD’s proposed development will set an "undesirable precedent for similar types of development adjacent to the national road network".

    It said before the M50 upgrade, that road was the most heavily congested national road in the country – caused by its increased usage as a distributor road and significant development pressures on its interchanges.

    "The NRA would highlight that the experience of development pressure on the M50 and its associated interchanges was a key reason in the decision to lodge this appeal so as to avoid similar development practices emerging along the N25," its objection states.

    It said the N25 is an expensive strategic national road which should not, because of inappropriate development along its corridor, become a distributor road.

    It is the NRA’s view that the benefits of publicly funded investment in the road are not eroded by inappropriate development.

    The NRA also said Mr Cleary’s project has the potential to adversely affect the capacity, efficiency and safety of the N25, the Jack Lynch Tunnel and the Dunkettle interchange.

    The NRA said it was not notified by Cork City Council about JCD’s planning application either during the planning process, or during the public consultation phase which led up to the rezoning vote.

    "This action has deprived the authority of its entitlement to participate in the planning process as intended by the legislation," the NRA said.

    And it also pointed out the limited provision of public transport to the Mahon area.

    Just three buses – the no 10, no 2 and no 19 South Orbital route – service the area, leading to an over-reliance on the private car.

    It said a private shuttle bus the developer has been asked to provide will have minimal impact.

    Meanwhile, it has emerged that the NRA is seeking tenders from contractors to provide design and environmental services associated with the N8/N25 Dunkettle Interchange Improvement Scheme.

    Part of the work will involve the successful candidate providing the NRA with full planning advice on development and proposals in the study area, and any application that may impact on the performance and capacity of the N25 South Ring Road.

    The contractor will be required to prepare reports on the application if a planning appeal is required.

    The NRA said tenderers should allow for up to 18 applications in the Cork area over the course of the 24-month appointment.

    Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfkfideykfey/rss2/#ixzz0zXbhbWpr


  • #36
    tharlear
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭tharlear


    Drove from kinsale to cahsel resently, First time I've ever driven this route.
    Kinsale R600 to n27 to n25 to M8.
    It was a friday morning about 10.30 when I passed cork airport. The N27 junction to N25 is a mess. One of the worst junctions I've come across (mind you most of my driving is outside of ireland) then arrived at the N25 M8 junction, This needs a major upgrade. Allowing any further development along the N25 near either of these junction before they are ungraded would be foolish.
    If this developers wants to develop a 200m center, make him pay for the infrastructure improvements before he is allowed to proceed.

    Developers should have to build the roads, water and sewer/stormwater and electrical , parks etc before they are allowed to proceed with a commercial or residential development. It works in other countries.

    Question on a friday afternoon how long does it take to get through the tunnel and onto the M8?


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  • #37
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    tharlear wrote: »
    Question on a friday afternoon how long does it take to get through the tunnel and onto the M8?

    On any evening around 5-6pm you can get the south ring entirely backed up for a good three or four kilometres -- and this is in addition to the blockages at the Bandon and Sarsfield roundabouts. It can take a good while to get through: well over twenty minutes going nowhere fast at times.

    Most of this traffic is not heading for the M8 (though this is still around 19,000 vehicles per day), but for the N25 East (i.e. to Middleton, Carrigtwohill, Youghal, etc.).

    The long and the short of it is that Dunkettle is grossly underpowered. Any further developments on the N25 prior to the creation of a free-flowing Dunkettle Interchange should be out of the question.


  • #38
    tharlear
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭tharlear


    Is there any work being done on the Dunkettle junction?

    It looks to me as if there are at least 3 roundabouts that need to be eliminated.

    Also the numbering of the road is a bit of a mess,looking at google map it appears to be N22,n28,n27,n25,
    Some renumbering might be an idea. Similar to n20,n18,n17 but over a much shorter distance.


  • #39
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    tharlear wrote: »
    Is there any work being done on the Dunkettle junction?

    That's what this thread is about. The NRA tendered for a plan to make Dunkettle freeflow, and they've called it the N25/N8 Dunkettle Interchange Improvement Scheme. We've no more details yet unfortunately. I sent an email to them yesterday asking for an update.
    It looks to me as if there are at least 3 roundabouts that need to be eliminated.

    Correct: Dunkettle itself (which is covered in this thread) and the Bandon and Sarsfield Roundabouts, which are both covered in this thread. Plans for these two roundabouts are finalised and work, some would have us believe, might start at the end of this year or early next year. But that's for that thread.
    Also the numbering of the road is a bit of a mess,looking at google map it appears to be N22,n28,n27,n25,
    Some renumbering might be an idea. Similar to n20,n18,n17 but over a much shorter distance.

    It is Cork's M50 and so you have a lot of national routes converging on it.


  • #40
    tharlear
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭tharlear


    It is Cork's M50 and so you have a lot of national routes converging on it.

    I understand that but,
    on OSm.org it the n22 becomes the n25 at bandon roundabout.
    On google map
    N22 becomes n28 at bandon roundabout,
    which becomes the n27 and n28 at pouladuff road,
    this then becomes the N25,n27,n28 at the kindsale roundabout
    then the n25 and n28 after the roundabout and final the n25 after the n28 branches off.

    While I understand that one peice of physical infastructure may have more than one route number applied to it over a given stretch, in this case it rather confusing for some one not familiar with the area. If it's going to be corks M50 they might think of giving it it's own seperate designation.
    When I drove from kinsale to cashel, none of the intersection I encountered in cork city were easy to nagavitate. I became the guy consentantly changing lanes as I tried to figure out where I was going.


  • #41
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    tharlear wrote: »
    I understand that but,
    on OSm.org it the n22 becomes the n25 at bandon roundabout.
    On google map
    N22 becomes n28 at bandon roundabout,
    which becomes the n27 and n28 at pouladuff road,
    this then becomes the N25,n27,n28 at the kindsale roundabout
    then the n25 and n28 after the roundabout and final the n25 after the n28 branches off.

    While I understand that one peice of physical infastructure may have more than one route number applied to it over a given stretch, in this case it rather confusing for some one not familiar with the area. If it's going to be corks M50 they might think of giving it it's own seperate designation.
    When I drove from kinsale to cashel, none of the intersection I encountered in cork city were easy to nagavitate. I became the guy consentantly changing lanes as I tried to figure out where I was going.

    Hmm... I think Google Maps is very wrong in that case! This is accurate: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.8791580200195&lon=-8.48453521728516&zoom=13

    The N25 is what the bulk of the South Ring is. It becomes the N22 here, just as the M50 becomes the M11 here.

    The N27 runs from the airport through the Kinsale Road Roundabout here and proceeds to the City Centre, but at all times it passes under the N25.

    The N25 continues all the way to the Jack Lynch Tunnel and beyond. At no point does it share any carriageway with the N28, which begins at a trumpet interchange here.

    I think you were just bamboozled by all the N twenty-something route numbers. My father also finds the South Ring very hard to follow, but he's old school and doesn't use route numbers at all. What improvements to signage would you suggest, given that several people have expressed confusion with the directions signed on the route? I've no problem with them myself.


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  • #42
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Hang on: I've just spotted the N28 here. Apologies. That strikes me as bizarre and unnecessary alright. Anyone know why it's there?


  • #43
    invinciblePRSTV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Furet wrote: »
    Hang on: I've just spotted the N28 here. Apologies. That strikes me as bizarre and unnecessary alright. Anyone know why it's there?

    Surely an error by whoever put it up seeing as it's a slip from the N27 to the SRR & Togher Flyover. There's certainly no N28 signage on it anyway.

    Another reason why you should never to fully trust new fangled sat nav and DIY online maps :cool:.

    As for upgrading the SRR, that means we won't be able to build some a motorway to the middle of nowhere out in the schticks. Couldn't have that now could we?.


  • #44
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
    Surely an error by whoever put it up seeing as it's a slip from the N27 to the SRR & Togher Flyover. There's certainly no N28 signage on it anyway.

    Another reason why you should never to fully trust new fangled sat nav and DIY online maps :cool:.

    As for upgrading the SRR, that means we won't be able to build some a motorway to the middle of nowhere out in the schticks. Couldn't have that now could we?.

    before the tunnel was built the south ring road went to the bloomfield interchange , there was no road past the present N28 trumpet interchange to mahon and beyond. also the ring road stopped at the bandon road so originally before the tunnel was open all of the south ring road was N28 so some maps still probably show it as that..it only all became N25 when the tunnel was opened.


  • #45
    invinciblePRSTV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    charlemont wrote: »
    before the tunnel was built the south ring road went to the bloomfield interchange , there was no road past the present N28 trumpet interchange to mahon and beyond. also the ring road stopped at the bandon road so originally before the tunnel was open all of the south ring road was N28 so some maps still probably show it as that..it only all became N25 when the tunnel was opened.

    All well and good but the slip road which was marked N28 on the link above only came into existence with the construction of the KRR a few years ago did it not? it hardly was allocated a N28 designation in 2006 when the SRR itself was given the N25 designation in the late 1990s.


  • #46
    tharlear
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭tharlear


    Its is possible to have more than one road number on a piece of road wher ethe share the same carrageway
    think you were just bamboozled by all the N twenty-something route numbers. My father also finds the South Ring very hard to follow, but he's old school and doesn't use route numbers at all. What improvements to signage would you suggest, given that several people have expressed confusion with the directions signed on the route? I've no problem with them myself.

    On the other hand my father in his eighties in the passanger seat had no problem telling me where to go. But i was the one driving. The road signage was only part of the problem
    the junction themsevles are not intuative. Once you done it once however it not a problem.
    Coming into the kinsale rounabout there is a traffic light on the airport road at grane road. If you're not in the correct (right) lane at this light then you are trying to get across traffic on a rounabout while stopping at 2 lights on the roundabout. If you know whre your going it not an issue.
    (turn left a mile before you come to the cross roads with murphys bull)

    It appears to me to be another case of a junction being build with the money available with no thought to the future requiremnents.


  • #47
    Steviemak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭Steviemak


    invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
    All well and good but the slip road which was marked N28 on the link above only came into existence with the construction of the KRR a few years ago did it not? it hardly was allocated a N28 designation in 2006 when the SRR itself was given the N25 designation in the late 1990s.

    Not sure what you mean by the construction of the KRR (ie original roundabout or new flyover) but that slip was constructed with the original South ring.


  • #48
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    OSM is correct apart from that bit of N28 thats floating about on the Kinsale Road junction. Just fixed that :D


  • #49
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,239 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    "In a detailed objection to a €200 million office plan in Mahon, Cork, which has the potential to create almost 1,500 jobs, the NRA said its experience of traffic congestion on the M50 was a key reason in its decision to appeal this project."

    Buildings do not create jobs. Especially when there is vacant office space.


  • #50
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    Buildings do not create jobs. Especially when there is vacant office space.

    Well, even for a start, building them does, along with a lot of traffic movements. More pertinently, it would be highly unlikely that anyone would actually build office space at the moment, but would wait until things picked up, PP in hand. Clearly, developers would dearly love to build along the N25/SRR, and the NRA want to protect their (our) investment.

    This is critical an issue for the City/County Councils. They have to decide if they want to build City West style developments along the SRR, and choke that up, or to zone and plan properly, ideally putting office developments in cities themselves.


  • #51
    mackerski
    Registered Users Posts: 2,276 ✭✭✭mackerski


    tharlear wrote: »
    Its is possible to have more than one road number on a piece of road wher ethe share the same carrageway

    Are you sure about that? I've never seen that done in Ireland. Indeed the Statutory Instruments defining the routes of the national and regional roads have many instances of routes being interrupted as they join another route, then resuming as they diverge from it again. So I've always taken the view that multiplexing of this sort is never done in Ireland.

    What I have seen is many cases of signs failing to use brackets where they should.


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  • #52
    tharlear
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭tharlear


    Are you sure about that? I've never seen that done in Ireland. Indeed the Statutory Instruments defining the routes of the national and regional roads have many instances of routes being interrupted as they join another route, then resuming as they diverge from it again. So I've always taken the view that multiplexing of this sort is never done in Ireland.
    Ive mainly seen this in US and in some asian countries. I do not know the what the law in Ireland is.

    It may will be that google have it wrong on the map. Looked at the OS ma, no help



    I've seen bracket indicating that one road leads to another.


  • #53
    number10a
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭number10a


    Speaking of the South Ring, has anyone noticed the new signage for it on the Airport Hill from the Airport Roundabout down as far as the traffic lights at the Bull McCabes? All the signs now refer to the South Ring as the Cork Ring :confused::confused: Yet as soon as you get past the traffic lights, you're looking at signs for South Ring. Certainly not an issue for locals, but the inconsistency could be confusing for tourists who are coming down from the airport.

    Apart from that, it's a ridiculous name for it. I mean nobody is going to find a sign for the South Ring ambiguous and want clarification as to what city it's in. Are such things usually designed by a pen-pusher in Dublin, or would they be done here at local level?

    On a seperate issue: Whoever they got to make the signs obviously has no grasp of Irish (or how to use Google/Wikipedia) because they got the Irish for Cork Airport wrong too.


  • #54
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    i think there is ample room to improve the junction and thus make it free flow, particulary as the local access to little island is to be removed although im surprised at that, they will probably have to find a way to provide a link there as otherwise all little island traffic would clog up the exit at the train station.

    i cant seem to get any picture up, i done a wee drawing over goggle earth
    image of possible future interchange , keeping the existing bridge and using the loop on the south east side..


  • #55
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    NRA ‘stifling growth’ in city

    By Sean O’Riordan
    Friday, September 17, 2010

    THE Construction Industry Federation (CIF) is seeking a meeting with senior National Roads Authority officials amid claims it is stifling growth in Cork.

    The claim was made last week by developer Michael O’Flynn after Bord Pleanála turned down permission for his €400 million, 1,200-house development at Dunkettle.

    The NRA objected to his development on the grounds it would generate enough traffic to seriously affect already gridlocked local roads and the major interchanges at the Jack Lynch Tunnel and Dunkettle roundabout.

    It was the second time Bord Pleanála had refused planning permission for the Dunkettle development and the second time the NRA had objected to the project.

    CIF director for the southern region, Joe O’Brien, said he was very disappointed. He said he was concerned that job creation in the construction sector was being stymied because major projects were being held up because roads in the area need upgrading.

    The NRA also successfully objected to plans by Iarnród Éireann to build a park and ride railway station at North Esk, near Dunkettle.

    The NRA were also asked to comment on a Port of Cork plan to build a container terminal in Ringaskiddy. Board Pleanála also refused permission for that project. The NRA said the extra traffic resulting from the move would create further pressure on the tunnel.


    This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Friday, September 17, 2010

    Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/nra-stifling-growth-in-city-131063.html#ixzz10Yq46hpc

    While I think the NRA is right to protect infrstructure from inappropriate developments, a trend has emerged which indicates that until Dunkettle is made free-flow, practically nothing can go ahead south of the Lee. This is a totally unsustainable position which will inhibit Cork's development as a serious economic hub for the south of the country. In the other on-going thread I placed Dunkettle below the North Ring in terms of importance; but actually, it seems that Dunkettle is more important after all.

    NRA objections to the proposal were summarised as follows in the planning inspector's report:
    The submission by the NRA, which is accompanied by a report by Faber Maunsell,
    can be summarised as follows:

    5.5.1 Impact on National Road Infrastructure and Strategic National Traffic

    • The N28, N25 and in particular the N8/N25 interchange are part of the Atlantic corridor which has been identified for development under Transport 21 and will carry much of the long distance traffic between Waterford, Cork, Limerick and onto the northern gateways.
    • Development generated traffic must be controlled so as not to unduly interfere with the strategic movement of goods and people to/from the Cork region along these national roads.
    • The impact of local development traffic is significant.
    • Currently the AADT using the interchange is 100,000 vehicles. National and local traffic converge on this junction resulting in severe congestion at peak times. The interchange is currently over capacity at peak times.
    • Increased traffic trip generation is set to continue. Land use and employment strategies have encouraged orbital car based movements along the N25 Cork southern ring road. Car based volumes will continue as the CASP objective of strengthening Carrigtohill and Middleton comes to fruition.
    • The intensification of traffic weaving at the interchange as a result of traffic volumes from the IBIS slip is undesirable and will lead to significant safety concerns.

    5.5.2 Prematurity Pending Provision of Required Improvements

    • The NRA has undertaken preliminary work in relation to required improvements but substantial work remains to be done to devise a preferred
    solution. Thus, the development continues to be premature pending the determination of a future transportation infrastructure and road layout including proposals for Dunkettle interchange.
    • The road improvements included in the Council’s decision could potentially form part of the upgrade determined for the national roads in the area and in particular the Dunkettle interchange.
    • The permission measures do not constitute a comprehensive response to ensure that the function of the interchange in catering primarily for strategic interurban and interregional traffic is maintained.

    Source (p. 22)


  • #56
    invinciblePRSTV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    What can the NRA do eh? dependent on the whims of their political masters for any funding, the Dunkettle upgrade will still be a long way down the list of road funding priorities despite it's AADTs and strategic importance. Gotta build all those 'corridors' to nowhere first.

    Can't see much changing even if LAB/FG take power and manage to find some money from somewhere for new builds. I wager there'll be Motorways to Castlebar, Carrick-on-Shannon & Clones before Dunkettle gets looked at.


  • #57
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,239 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    In fairness, the developers are trying to build a "donut city", which isn't acceptable. Plenty of unused land in the city centre, while Cork County Council are building away.

    The county council object to the city council trying to expand the city boundary ont he argument that there is still development land in the city. If there is development land, why are they allowing development all over the place in the county?


  • #58
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    The NRA expects the EIS for the Dunkettle Interchange improvements to be published in Q1 2012.


  • #59
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Victor wrote: »
    In fairness, the developers are trying to build a "donut city", which isn't acceptable. Plenty of unused land in the city centre, while Cork County Council are building away.

    Why aren't developers looking to build in the docklands? Is it because of the proposed new bridge not being built?
    Victor wrote: »
    The county council object to the city council trying to expand the city boundary ont he argument that there is still development land in the city. If there is development land, why are they allowing development all over the place in the county?

    Cork City Council's boundary should be extended by about 16km in all directions and there should be one planning authority for city and county, with a remit to ensure that major developments are concentrated in the city, with office developments as close to the centre as possible, and the larger county towns.


  • #60
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    The NRA have partly updated the Road Scheme Activity section of their site. This has appeared:
    Local Authority: Cork County Council
    Start County: Cork
    End County: Cork
    Description: This scheme involves the upgrading of the Dunkettle Interchange between the N8 and N25 national routes on the outskirts of Cork City. The current interchange arrangement has free flow for the traffic going in an east - west direction but forces north - south traffic and turning traffic to use a traffic signal controlled roundabout. It is proposed to upgrade the interchange to fully free flow in all directions and to include measures to remove locally generated traffic from the interchange.
    Mainline Length (km): 1km
    Current Project Phase: Route Selection


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  • #61
    KevR
    Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    Aidan1 wrote: »
    Well, even for a start, building them does, along with a lot of traffic movements. More pertinently, it would be highly unlikely that anyone would actually build office space at the moment, but would wait until things picked up, PP in hand. Clearly, developers would dearly love to build along the N25/SRR, and the NRA want to protect their (our) investment.

    This is critical an issue for the City/County Councils. They have to decide if they want to build City West style developments along the SRR, and choke that up, or to zone and plan properly, ideally putting office developments in cities themselves.

    I don't really know Cork that well but I can make the point that there is a lot of unnecessary traffic in Galway and Dublin because of sprawling low rise office developments on the outskirts of both cities. Everyone is forced to drive to/from work because public transport links to these business parks/industrial estates are so poor and difficult to improve. Ideally, most office developments would be in a central location in medium or high(ish) rise buildings close to train/bus stations. Manufacturing should obviously be on the outskirts close to the motorway network so goods can be moved around quickly.

    There is still hesitation as to whether high rise buildings in certain locations in Central Dublin should be allowed; I think this is insane! Land in the City Centre isn't exactly cheap so it wouldn't be worth anyone's while to buy a site there with the intention of building new offices as they would only be allowed to build low rise. They will more than likely choose to locate on the outskirts where land is cheaper and build a low rise there (unfortunately generating more traffic). If high rise was allowed then it would be more worth their while to build in the City Centre near good public transport links.


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