Two interesting motions at the GUI AGM

Russman · 26-11-2014 5:07pm

alxmorgan wrote: »

Interesting points made. Would you/how would you address team events then ? Throw your hat at it and accept they are for bandits ?

Tbh I don't know what the solution is re team events, or even if there is one. I'd be very much afraid of throwing the baby out with the bath water though.
I think, to an extent, so called handicap cheating is a bit like drugs in sport, no matter how many rules are brought in, humans will always try to gain an advantage somehow.

Maybe reduce the prizes or the value of the prizes ? What's the incentive to hold an artificially high handicap if all you can win is, I dunno, a club sweater ?

I think linking handicap to prizes or to finishing position is a very dangerous road to go down. IMO handicap is against the course, and the statement or definition of someone's ability at golf shouldn't be dependent on the strength of the opposition or the field.

Most of these classics etc are run based on their own rules and aren't covered by CONGU, where do we draw the line when the motion says other similar events ? Practice rounds where someone observes joe blogs making 3 birdies that he "shouldn't" make ?

Russman · 26-11-2014 5:18pm

alxmorgan wrote: »

I think this is understating it somewhat. I am not at this game long but it hasn't taken me long to figure out that team events are rife with cheats. You will of course get cheats in singles comps but less so as they know they will get cut.

The vast majority of golfers i know won't enter team comps or only do so for the craic as they know, being honest, that even their best day will hardly even get them near the podium. Perhaps I'm overstating but I don't think so.

And the fact that this has been accepted for so long both reflects badly on the GUI and also perhaps reflects clubs fear of losing money by upsetting the current situation even if they know the score.

I'd argue you are maybe overstating it a little.
I only ever enter team events for the craic, as it happens I won one this year, mostly because we had a genuinely complete beginner who held a heap of putts, none of us played well, we just dovetailed well. It was some weird form of scramble, can't even remember the exact format but in no way representative of any of our games. I'm Cat 1 so it doesn't impact me either way, but if I wasn't I'd be reluctant to enter one if I thought I could lose half a shot for no good reason.

The gui can't really tell clubs to stop having team events, ultimately they're private made up comps, outside of the normal rules. Most people only ever enter them for the craic to support the charitable cause or to kill a bank holiday morning IMO.

alxmorgan · 26-11-2014 5:18pm

Russman wrote: »

Tbh I don't know what the solution is re team events, or even if there is one. I'd be very much afraid of throwing the baby out with the bath water though.
I think, to an extent, so called handicap cheating is a bit like drugs in sport, no matter how many rules are brought in, humans will always try to gain an advantage somehow.

Maybe reduce the prizes or the value of the prizes ? What's the incentive to hold an artificially high handicap if all you can win is, I dunno, a club sweater ?

I think linking handicap to prizes or to finishing position is a very dangerous road to go down. IMO handicap is against the course, and the statement or definition of someone's ability at golf shouldn't be dependent on the strength of the opposition or the field.

Most of these classics etc are run based on their own rules and aren't covered by CONGU, where do we draw the line when the motion says other similar events ? Practice rounds where someone observes joe blogs making 3 birdies that he "shouldn't" make ?

I agree that prizes have a lot to do with this but can't see anything being done for fear of losing revenue

alxmorgan · 26-11-2014 5:21pm

Russman wrote: »

I'd argue you are maybe overstating it a little.
I only ever enter team events for the craic, as it happens I won one this year, mostly because we had a genuinely complete beginner who held a heap of putts, none of us played well, we just dovetailed well. It was some weird form of scramble, can't even remember the exact format but in no way representative of any of our games. I'm Cat 1 so it doesn't impact me either way, but if I wasn't I'd be reluctant to enter one if I thought I could lose half a shot for no good reason.

The gui can't really tell clubs to stop having team events, ultimately they're private made up comps, outside of the normal rules. Most people only ever enter them for the craic to support the charitable cause or to kill a bank holiday morning IMO.

Perhaps I am - maybe a poll would sort it out

I just know from a big event I entered this year that the stories of the winning teams were interesting. Let's just say they wouldn't give you confidence in a level playing ground.

I entered purely to play the courses involved and meet like minded golfers and I was happy out. But I'm competitive by nature and it irks me to think I can give my best and still not have a hope cause there's a team of handicap Ben Johnsons up ahead

FixdePitchmark · 26-11-2014 5:23pm

The motion is very small reductions.

Lads could still win 5 or 6 events with shots to spare.

I was at a 3 man team event and lads were getting over 100 points (2 to score).

But Russman - is right there - if a lad wants to cheat - he will.

Russman · 26-11-2014 5:25pm

alxmorgan wrote: »

I agree that prizes have a lot to do with this but can't see anything being done for fear of losing revenue

Totally agree.
So, where does that leave team events and legislating for them ? Someone will come up with an event they can claim isn't covered by the motion or rule, no doubt about that.
If people insist on holding classics with weekends in Spain as prizes, it's naive to think the bandits won't come like moths to a flame and that someone playing to their handicap has a chance. These events are so removed from real golf they're almost a different sport.

If the clubs holding these events are getting full time sheets they won't care whether it's a sheet full of rogues or genuines.

alxmorgan · 26-11-2014 5:26pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

The motion is very small reductions.

Lads could still win 5 or 6 events with shots to spare.

I was at a 3 man team event and lads were getting over 100 points.

But Russman - is right there - if a lad wants to cheat - he will.

That's true but we don't have to make it easy for them. It's like saying athletes will take drugs so let them at it (which interestingly has been suggested).

Hard one but something like the 3 qualifying comp requirement not applying to team comps seems to me like the GUI saying "we know these events are the wild west, but we can't risk affecting the money they bring in"

FixdePitchmark · 26-11-2014 5:30pm

alx is right there.

You still have to lead by example.

I'd be taking 1 shot off a cat 0 - 2 off cat 1 - 3 off cat 2 - etc.

I'd be far more radical.

alxmorgan · 26-11-2014 5:33pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

alx is right there.

You still have to lead by example.

I'd be taking 1 shot off a cat 0 - 2 off cat 1 - 3 off cat 2 - etc.

I'd be far more radical.

Not like you

Russman · 26-11-2014 5:33pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

The motion is very small reductions.

Lads could still win 5 or 6 events with shots to spare.

I was at a 3 man team event and lads were getting over 100 points (2 to score).

But Russman - is right there - if a lad wants to cheat - he will.

Exactly, it's more a "punishment" motion, than anything to do with accuracy of handicap. And it's dragging the UHS into somewhere it's not meant to be.

Most guys would gladly trade half a shot for some of the prizes you see on offer. Maybe the one we won was only because it was a pair of shoes for first prize !!

2 to score out of 3, and 100 points is f--king madness, 0.4 of a cut isn't going to do squat for the likes of that.

FixdePitchmark · 26-11-2014 5:39pm

Russman wrote: »

Exactly, it's more a "punishment" motion, than anything to do with accuracy of handicap. And it's dragging the UHS into somewhere it's not meant to be.

Most guys would gladly trade half a shot for some of the prizes you see on offer. Maybe the one we won was only because it was a pair of shoes for first prize !!

2 to score out of 3, and 100 points is f--king madness, 0.4 of a cut isn't going to do squat for the likes of that.

True these guys had about 7 to 10 shots in bag for some of them . :eek:
Not only that they played together and knew each other very very well.

You could make my idea a bit more fair by applying a mulitlier relative to CSS - or field size.

So (CSS - (your team )/(team member number) )
Or just apply normal handicap adjustment after this.

Yes they need to send a message out - but 0.6 etc above is a joke when you have 7-10 shots in the bag for one player in team.

PARlance · 26-11-2014 5:42pm

I don't think the "you get cut 6 shots for a win" motion would be passed Fix!

Every little helps.

Russman · 26-11-2014 5:44pm

alxmorgan wrote: »

That's true but we don't have to make it easy for them. It's like saying athletes will take drugs so let them at it (which interestingly has been suggested).

Hard one but something like the 3 qualifying comp requirement not applying to team comps seems to me like the GUI saying "we know these events are the wild west, but we can't risk affecting the money they bring in"

But should events like these really be policed by the gui ? They're essentially not covered by the rules of golf and the handicap system because there are so many different formats. How can someone's ability at golf be determined based on a format where he can potentially pick his ball up on every hole and take it to a more advantageous position ?

I take your point re the drugs but the governing bodies are more likely to test at an Olympics than at a provincial event in Ireland, team events just aren't that relevant or high on the radar.

For sure the money and "realpolitik" is a factor but I'd say it's more just a case of there not being an equitable solution when any event organiser can put in rules as he sees fit for his particular classic.

slave1 · 26-11-2014 5:45pm

I don't really play in those classics but was shoveled into one in New Forest for some school fund raising at €35, golf and food. We all played really well in our 3ball scramble and had a 7 under, had great craic. Came in around 9/10 and told they stop serving the food at 6 and we were dripping for food, handed our card in and left thinking that must be in with a chance, not a hope, they had prizes for the first 9 teams and we were nowhere, 15 under won it!!!

spacecoyote · 26-11-2014 6:53pm

Russman wrote: »

I only ever enter team events for the craic, as it happens I won one this year, mostly because we had a genuinely complete beginner who held a heap of putts, none of us played well, we just dovetailed well.

<_<
>_>

Bandits

FixdePitchmark · 26-11-2014 7:18pm

If you made cuts . Not as big as my idea. But a real cut . Not bloody 0.6.

You would think twice about playing with known bandits.

GreeBo · 26-11-2014 8:01pm

PARlance wrote: »

I would have no issue getting a cut for a team event win or placing, even if I played poorly. Get a prize, get cut. That's fine with me.

In fact, I suggested the same motion some time ago, delight and surprised to see the home of links golf, Thurles, forwarding it.

Prizes have nothing to do with cuts or handicaps, or rather they are supposed to have nothing to do with them.

Why not cut people on having a hole in one, or maybe the best GIR score?

Its not golf, focus on getting handicaps correct for individual events and limit prizes further.

GreeBo · 26-11-2014 8:02pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

You would think twice about playing with known bandits.

No it wouldnt. You only get cut for winning, thats the point. So irrespective of who you played with, bandits or otherwise, a win = a cut.

Russman · 26-11-2014 8:03pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

If you made cuts . Not as big as my idea. But a real cut . Not bloody 0.6.

You would think twice about playing with known bandits.

But would that kill off team events ? It seems that anyone who wins one, or anything these days, is assumed a bandit (I know the post above was in jest). So would genuine players stop playing for fear of an unwarranted cut and gaining a reputation ? You could win an event with a terrible score and be cut, that's not right IMO. There can't be a link between handicap and finishing position IMHO.

alxmorgan · 26-11-2014 8:34pm

I hear what ye are saying but what is the alternative ? Just let them at it ?

It's not a perfect solution but IMHO it's better than the current situation.

FixdePitchmark · 26-11-2014 8:42pm

Russman wrote: »

But would that kill off team events ? It seems that anyone who wins one, or anything these days, is assumed a bandit (I know the post above was in jest). So would genuine players stop playing for fear of an unwarranted cut and gaining a reputation ? You could win an event with a terrible score and be cut, that's not right IMO. There can't be a link between handicap and finishing position IMHO.

But I'm saying cuts should be based on CSS - in this day and age you could make sure all score are entered ( I know this will only apply to certain type of events)

Yes there are bandits , but there are lads playing with bandits , knowing they are bandits , this should be punished too - sorry.

Send a message out.

Russman · 26-11-2014 9:19pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

But I'm saying cuts should be based on CSS - in this day and age you could make sure all score are entered ( I know this will only apply to certain type of events)

Yes there are bandits , but there are lads playing with bandits , knowing they are bandits , this should be punished too - sorry.

Send a message out.

But you see that's just it for me, "knowing they are bandits" - what is a bandit ? It's too subjective to bring in a cutting mechanism based on how you played against the field, which could be very weak or very good depending on any number of random factors. Cutting a lad who possibly did nothing in a team event and was carried by his mates, purely because one of them may be a bandit doesn't seem right.

Banditry will never be stamped out (personally I don't think it's anywhere near as prevalent as some) because it's too grey an area.

I think there's a danger that the message you would send out is "don't play in team events at all" which would be bad because for a lot of clubs they are a major part of their find raising.

FixdePitchmark · 26-11-2014 9:35pm

Russman - what is wrong in say a stableford format of all scores going into Golfnet ?

Can't just let them off - lads are winning by 6 /7 / 8 - points better than handicap each.

Crazy stuff.

Russman · 26-11-2014 9:47pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Russman - what is wrong in say a stableford format of all scores going into Golfnet ?

Can't just let them off - lads are winning by 6 /7 / 8 - points better than handicap each.

Crazy stuff.

Nothing wrong with it. But as soon as it started organisers would make every classic a scramble or some other format where the ball is picked up and moved, and would render any scoring mechanism pointless from a handicapping perspective.

Is it not to be expected (to a degree) that scores should be way better than handicap in a team event ? If your handicap is based on 18 holes, presumably it takes your good and bad holes into account, bearing in mind very few people play to their handicap in the theoretical way, like say 9 bogeys and 9 pars for a 9 handicapper. Chances are there may be a few doubles in there with maybe a birdie or two. If a team is dovetailing well and effectively only each players good holes are being counted, I don't think it's that unusual for scores to be very high (within some reason). I'm sure we've all had times when 3 players had 3 points on a hole with only two to score, and we've wished "if only I'd had that birdie on the next" - what if that actually happens and the pieces all fall into place ?

Also, what if they don't win with 6 or 7 better per man, what if they win with an average of level to handicap or worse ? This motion suggest a cut simply for winning no matter what the score, as if winning is some sort of offence. Someone will win every event, they're not all bandits, sometimes they just played well.

FixdePitchmark · 26-11-2014 10:01pm

Russman wrote: »

Nothing wrong with it. But as soon as it started organisers would make every classic a scramble or some other format where the ball is picked up and moved, and would render any scoring mechanism pointless from a handicapping perspective.

Is it not to be expected (to a degree) that scores should be way better than handicap in a team event ? If your handicap is based on 18 holes, presumably it takes your good and bad holes into account, bearing in mind very few people play to their handicap in the theoretical way, like say 9 bogeys and 9 pars for a 9 handicapper. Chances are there may be a few doubles in there with maybe a birdie or two. If a team is dovetailing well and effectively only each players good holes are being counted, I don't think it's that unusual for scores to be very high (within some reason). I'm sure we've all had times when 3 players had 3 points on a hole with only two to score, and we've wished "if only I'd had that birdie on the next" - what if that actually happens and the pieces all fall into place ?

Also, what if they don't win with 6 or 7 better per man, what if they win with an average of level to handicap or worse ? This motion suggest a cut simply for winning no matter what the score, as if winning is some sort of offence. Someone will win every event, they're not all bandits, sometimes they just played well.

Well then you discourage that by applying a heavier cut if it is a pick up event.
We are just encouraging people to do the right thing. Team golf can stay the same - but all should know it is counting.

I'd argue - individual scores are used versus CSS what is the issue. It is a team event but - you have a chance of a cut (great).
If you chose to go and play in non counting events you get a cut by crude rule above - it is your choice, in fact I would make this cut deeper. Also lads choosing to play with bandits know they are facing a cut. These teams know each other - they know when they are picking a bandit.

Yes dovetailing is a possibility - but just apply CSS to individual scores.
Something has to be done - over 100 points is a joke.

And if all that fails - ban classics by GUI motion, unless they are GUI handicap adjusted. At the end of the day lads are entering classics with GUI handicaps.

GUI have power they are not using. Anything that is undermining the system is not good for golf in the long run - people are genuienly losing faith in the Handicap system -

a couple of shots in the bag is one thing - but these are lads who can play off 6 to 8 - playing off 15 :eek:

Russman · 26-11-2014 10:41pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Well then you discourage that by applying a heavier cut if it is a pick up event.
We are just encouraging people to do the right thing. Team golf can stay the same - but all should know it is counting.

I'd argue - individual scores are used versus CSS what is the issue. It is a team event but - you have a chance of a cut (great).
If you chose to go and play in non counting events you get a cut by crude rule above - it is your choice, in fact I would make this cut deeper. Also lads choosing to play with bandits know they are facing a cut. These teams know each other - they know when they are picking a bandit.

Yes dovetailing is a possibility - but just apply CSS to individual scores.
Something has to be done - over 100 points is a joke.

And if all that fails - ban classics by GUI motion, unless they are GUI handicap adjusted. At the end of the day lads are entering classics with GUI handicaps.

GUI have power they are not using. Anything that is undermining the system is not good for golf in the long run - people are genuienly losing faith in the Handicap system -

a couple of shots in the bag is one thing - but these are lads who can play off 6 to 8 - playing off 15 :eek:

But you can't ascertain individual scores if a fella is only on the card, say, 6 times or he's using another player's drive half the time. Nobody knows how he'd perform over 18 holes with card and pencil, which is really what your handicap is supposed to reflect.

Team golf is so different to singles golf, CSS could never work, unless of course you devised a system of having a singles handicap and a classic handicap.

You can't ban classics, they're private events not covered by the usual rules, held on private property. They're barely even golf. GUI handicaps are used purely for convenience. I guess they're effectively banned insofar as they are not recognised or covered by the rules.

Lads off 15 who can play to 6 or 8 - maybe there are some but I just don't buy that there are that many of them tbh. It's too easy to see a guy's best 11 holes when he's on the card and extrapolate out that he should be off X, doesn't work like that. Most people are probably carrying a couple of shots anyway in that if they play well they'll beat their handicap, otherwise no one would ever get cut. Carrying a couple of shots AND being able to deliver when required is a whole other ball game to simply carrying a couple of shots IMHO.

Right, it's late, I'm out for now.

Afterthought, maybe something like a random draw for teammates in every group of 3 lines on the time sheet might do more than cuts........

Rikand · 26-11-2014 10:51pm

cat 1 getting shafted as usual

opinionated3 · 26-11-2014 11:08pm

To be fair something has to change. The banditry is completely out of hand imo. We had a situation in our club a few weeks ago when, in a regular open singles comp, 2 members refused to sign the card of a player that had been with them through the 18 holes. He was quite blatantly pulling up and actually thought it hilarious when the other 2 refused to sign the card. Very insulting to players who are trying to play in the honorable spirit of the game.

FixdePitchmark · 26-11-2014 11:13pm

opinionated3 wrote: »

To be fair something has to change. The banditry is completely out of hand imo. We had a situation in our club a few weeks ago when, in a regular open singles comp, 2 members refused to sign the card of a player that had been with them through the 18 holes. He was quite blatantly pulling up and actually thought it hilarious when the other 2 refused to sign the card. Very insulting to players who are trying to play in the honorable spirit of the game.

:D:D:D:D class.

But how do you know someone is 100 % pulling.

Seen it in Corballis a few weeks ago - your man told me it is a great place to come and get a .1

I was breaking me balls to get in buffer - made it too.

Keano · 26-11-2014 11:24pm

Very easy. Plays great golf for 15 holes and then all of a sudden starts knocking down drives or blazing putts past the hole. Fair play to the lads for not signing his card.

Two interesting motions at the GUI AGM

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