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Man Vs Black belt Woman?

  • 09-09-2010 11:24pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,730 ✭✭✭sxt


    I know that katie Taylor would beat the hell out of most men her size but she is a professional fighter, one of the best in the world


    I was speaking to a girl in work today and she was convinced that when a girl becomes a black belt in martial arts ,which her friend is, than she would have the beating of any untrained man of her equilvalent weight?

    Does anyobody think this is possible :confused:


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    To be honest I think more important is the discipline of the black belt rather than the sex of the fighter


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,720 ✭✭✭Sid_Justice


    In what context? Street fight? MMA fight? Matching guys and girls up on weight isn't really that worth while either. You could get a 145 lb guy who could tear the arms of a 145 lbs woman.

    I don't know enough aobut boxing to speculate how katie taylor would do with a a male, like she'd obviously knock the head of a beginner or intermediate boxer but put her in the ring with a male of her own age and weight and experience and she may not win. I'm going to go as far and say the guy would probably win due to size, if we gave her a 10 kg weight advantage maybe it would be fairer.

    SO is the girl fighting a skinny muscle-less junkie hand bag thief or what?

    I would also say a black belt in TKD (which seems the most popular ma for a girl to get a blaclbekt in my experience) to be almost completely and utterly worthless in either scenario.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,730 ✭✭✭sxt


    The girl in question was taekwondo but she said it didn't matter...I am probably wrong here but can't you get a black belt without ever sparring/ fighting? or being strong? Is it all about learning off moves?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,730 ✭✭✭sxt


    In what context? Street fight? MMA fight? Matching guys and girls up on weight isn't really that worth while either. You could get a 145 lb guy who could tear the arms of a 145 lbs woman.

    I don't know enough aobut boxing to speculate how katie taylor would do with a a male, like she'd obviously knock the head of a beginner or intermediate boxer but put her in the ring with a male of her own age and weight and experience and she may not win. I'm going to go as far and say the guy would probably win due to size, if we gave her a 10 kg weight advantage maybe it would be fairer.

    SO is the girl fighting a skinny muscle-less junkie hand bag thief or what?

    I would also say a black belt in TKD (which seems the most popular ma for a girl to get a blaclbekt in my experience) to be almost completely and utterly worthless in either scenario.


    Okay yeah, say a Woman Black belt in any fighting disipline is against a skinny muscle-less junkie of similar weight ...I presume the woman would still need to have been in countless riglourless hours of sparring in order to defeat someone that is alot stronger?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    sxt wrote: »
    Okay yeah, say a Woman Black belt in any fighting disipline is against a skinny muscle-less junkie of similar weight ...I presume the woman would still need to have been in countless riglourless hours of sparring in order to defeat someone that is alot stronger?

    You've never fought a female Aikidoka so. They have a natural advantage over males with a lower centre of gravity and greater flexibility


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  • Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    sxt wrote: »
    The girl in question was taekwondo but she said it didn't matter...I am probably wrong here but can't you get a black belt without ever sparring/ fighting? or being strong? Is it all about learning off moves?

    Black belt in Taekwonda and Karate and most / many other disciplines is next to useless against someone fairly handy naturally. This lady seems a right numpty anyway, the better you get at any martial art or self defence the more you realise how vulnerable you are. You are correct about getting a black belt without sparring in many disciplines. I did kick boxing for a while years ago (I was not too good at it), we used to spar with each other. Few of the other folks had black belts in Karate, they didn't really rate it. In saying that a few other folks had 3rd, 4th Dan grades in Karate, they'd take your head off before you knew what was going on.

    a World Champion kickboxer, at the peak of his physical powers and he was a big strong lean athlete, throughout the book he repeatedly gets in fights and whatnot, most of the time he conveys the fact that before a scrap he never ever counted his chickens.

    Loads of folk who have never done any self defence reckon that after a year or two at it you'll be Jackie Chan and invincible, not true at all.

    The old saying a little knowledge is a dangerous thing applies so so much to self defence in my opinion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭rom


    I think you can only solve this one with top trumps cards for the two parties :rolleyes:

    german%20cards0092.jpg


  • Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    You've never fought a female Aikidoka so. They have a natural advantage over males with a lower centre of gravity and greater flexibility

    Aikido is a great example, most people doing it would puke their guts up at the thought of actually poking someone's eye out or breaking a finger / arm. It takes years to accustom oneself phychologicaly to inflict that sort of damage to somone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,730 ✭✭✭sxt


    You've never fought a female Aikidoka so. They have a natural advantage over males with a lower centre of gravity and greater flexibility

    I Have no doubt that a fully commited Aikoka artist would beat a a man of a similar size..but I don't think that would be the norm


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭FruitLover


    sxt wrote: »
    when a girl becomes a black belt in martial arts ,which her friend is, than she would have the beating of any untrained man of her equilvalent weight?

    A) If a woman gets attacked, I'd imagine it's not likely that she'll be of equivalent weight to her attacker. Anyway, a man of equivalent weight would probably have more strength where it counts (plus any man who goes around attacking women presumably has plenty of experience in violence).

    B) Not all black belts are equal (I mean this in terms of both the grade and the person) so it's impossible to say definitively that a 'black belt' is of 'x' capability. One black-belt might be a natural fighter, train hard, keep fit, etc. The next might have plodded through their gradings, see their martial art as more as a by-the-numbers routine than a fighting art, not think defensively when out and about, etc.

    In summary: it's possible, but unlikely.
    sxt wrote: »
    The girl in question was taekwondo but she said it didn't matter...I am probably wrong here but can't you get a black belt without ever sparring/ fighting? or being strong? Is it all about learning off moves?

    It's entirely possible (and common) for people to get to a black belt level in a martial art without being a proficient fighter. Whether this happens or not depends on the person, the club, the instructor(s), the organization and possibly even the martial art itself. There's (still) an awful lot of mysticism about the 'black belt' and martial arts in general that leads people to believe that a couple of years in a dojo will lead to abilities to defeat 5 armed baddies with a few twirling kicks and backwards somersaults (flaming tomahawks optional).


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Doug Cartel


    You've never fought a female Aikidoka so. They have a natural advantage over males with a lower centre of gravity and greater flexibility

    Have you ever fought a female Aikidoka? Like actually fought, with hard contact?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭yomchi


    RoverJames wrote: »
    Black belt in Taekwonda and Karate and most / many other disciplines is next to useless against someone fairly handy naturally.

    What if the black belt was also fairly handy naturally. Gotta love some of the wild generalisations that get flung around this forum from time to time. What experience have you got yourself?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭yomchi


    sxt wrote: »
    I know that katie Taylor would beat the hell out of most men her size but she is a professional fighter, one of the best in the world

    Katie is an amateur fighter, not professional.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 131 ✭✭Pontificatus


    Too many variables. It almost doesnt matter if said person is a man or a woman, what matters is whether they can defend themselves in a live environment ie not on the mats with control and compliant opponents.

    Katie Taylor (as would alot of boxers) would smash a man of similar weight and possibly a lot of heavier men simply because she trains in an actual combat sport against non compliant opponents.


  • Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭conor678


    My 2 cents is that in this hypothetical situation that if the lady in question is a black belt in a MA that actively trains in aliveness situations, i.e. spars regularly in training, such as Judo, BJJ or afaik Shokotan and Kempo (not 100% but think there's a karate that promotes regular sparring in order to move up ranks, open to correction here though) then the lady regularly trains in active situations so it is plausible that she could handle herself. For example wither throw the attacker, submit or choke him.
    Tae Kwon Do not so much


  • Registered Users Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    It's not the art and it's not the grade, it's the individual.

    So no, not every female black belt will be able to handle any untrained man of the same weight.


  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭Craptacular


    Katie Taylor (as would alot of boxers) would smash a man of similar weight and possibly a lot of heavier men simply because she trains in an actual combat sport against non compliant opponents.
    No she doesn't. She trains and competes against people who have agreed to comply with rules. When was the last time she had someone kick her knee or throw a knee into her ribs?

    That said I've no doubt Katie would kick my ass and I'm considerably bigger than her. She, as far as I can remember, grew up sparring with blokes and can undoubtedly take a dig and keep coming.

    As for the original question, it depends entirely on the two individuals.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 131 ✭✭Pontificatus


    No she doesn't. She trains and competes against people who have agreed to comply with rules. When was the last time she had someone kick her knee or throw a knee into her ribs?
    .

    I cant tell whether you're being serious or not. Think about what i meant by compliant opponent.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭NG-DOC


    sxt wrote: »
    I Have no doubt that a fully commited Aikoka artist would beat a a man of a similar size..but I don't think that would be the norm

    I presume you mean a female Aikoka who is fully committed could defeat a male who wasn't trained in in "aikido match" or whatever the term is?

    If you are suggesting that a female trained in aikido would beat an untrained man of similar size in a real life street fight/organized full contact fight. I'm afraid i'm definitely going to have to call you out on that one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Doug Cartel


    NG-DOC wrote: »
    If you are suggesting that a female trained in aikido would beat an untrained man of similar size in a real life street fight/organized full contact fight. I'm afraid i'm definitely going to have to call you out on that one.
    For the record my issue was that sxt had framed his/her statement as if a woman's physiology actually gives her an advantage when using aikido in a fight.

    All other things being equal, being bigger and stronger is always an advantage.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,400 ✭✭✭RedXIV


    When I used to train (years and years ago) in TKD, we used to do an awful lot of self-defence and other stuff that didn't really go along with the general syllabus of TKD. But I can remember when I was starting, at a good size (about 6ft4, 100KG) that there were two black belts girls that had been training for years and they were not able to do any of the self defence moves that had been taught to them to someone my size.

    On the flip side, we went to another club for a sparring exercise and i had been in the club for about a year. Little bit cocky and they paired me up against this STUNNING black belt (think she was a 2nd Dan). Well she kicked me around the place, I couldn't even lay a finger on her.

    I think she would have been fine but shows that from the 3 from my memory, only one would be ok fighting a man


  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭Craptacular


    I cant tell whether you're being serious or not. Think about what i meant by compliant opponent.
    I think what you mean is an opponent who will not just stand there and be hit but will try to punch and won't be holding back on the punches.

    What I'm saying is that, while such an opponent is no picnic, they are still compliant in a way as they are agreeing only to punch and only to target certain areas and to take a break after a few minutes. Remove this compliance and, while the odds are still in Katie's favour, it's not so clear cut.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    When I've dealt with women who've been attacked, one of the most common things they say to me is "I just froze".

    It's not just about the body. It's about the head. A guy attacking a woman is likely trying to do some very bad things to her, which would add much more of a psychological edge to the proceedings than if you're a bloke who's being started on by some skanger who's just trying to be the big man in front of his mates.

    Having said that, my bird is a 2nd degree BB in TKD and dealt out some whoop ass to a guy who tried to attack her on holidays.


  • Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭antybots


    Hi,

    I've just joined this forum and I've been reading a lot of posts on various topics. From what I can gather it seems that if I ever get in a fight in the street, I will prevail if :

    A) I practice some form of ground fighting no matter who I am against.
    b) I do no martial art at all and I'm fighting against someone who does a TMA.
    c) I'm not a woman fighting a man.

    Obviously I'm being a bit tongue in cheek, but I do find these opinions that 'joe average wins against useless TMA' really generalistic.

    My own 2 cents are as follows :

    There are so many variables to take in to account that it is impossible to state who would win any fight. Anybody can beat anybody else given differing circumstances and because you can never determine what circumstances are going to happen during a fight, saying who would beat who is just guesswork.
    It just depends on the people involved.

    TKD and Aikido seem to get a lot of stick on this forum. For what it's worth, I know a fair few ITF TKD blackbelts and while there are more than a few who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, I also know more than a few who could bust you wide open. Again it depends on the persons attitude to fighting, not the art they are training.

    I'm sure you could go through every martial art and find someone who is crap and someone who is great, so so you can't say what would work and what wouldn't as different things work for different people.

    PS I've seen a few fights on the street and mostly the guys I knew who were martial artists won because they hit more often and with more accuracy than the dudes they were fighting, forcing the dude to cover up and end the fight (except one martial artist who fell over and got stomped into a coma).

    I think the generalisations are harmful to people who are thinking of taking up a MA and come here looking for opinions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Dermighty


    sxt wrote: »
    I know that katie Taylor would beat the hell out of most men her size but she is a professional fighter, one of the best in the world


    I was speaking to a girl in work today and she was convinced that when a girl becomes a black belt in martial arts ,which her friend is, than she would have the beating of any untrained man of her equilvalent weight?

    Does anyobody think this is possible :confused:

    If the untrained man has aggression and cardio, she'll probably die.

    If he does not, then she might be able to knock him out or pull off a choke/submission that he'd have no escape from.

    I'll agree with the previous poster, this woman/girl sounds like an idiot.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭HellsAngel


    I would also say a black belt in TKD (which seems the most popular ma for a girl to get a blaclbekt in my experience) to be almost completely and utterly worthless in either scenario.
    yomchi wrote: »
    What if the black belt was also fairly handy naturally. Gotta love some of the wild generalisations that get flung around this forum from time to time. What experience have you got yourself?
    Yes Sid_Justice, what TKD experience have you got yourself?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭HellsAngel


    RoverJames wrote: »
    Black belt in Taekwonda and Karate and most / many other disciplines is next to useless against someone fairly handy naturally. This lady seems a right numpty anyway, the better you get at any martial art or self defence the more you realise how vulnerable you are. You are correct about getting a black belt without sparring in many disciplines. I did kick boxing for a while years ago (I was not too good at it), we used to spar with each other. Few of the other folks had black belts in Karate, they didn't really rate it. In saying that a few other folks had 3rd, 4th Dan grades in Karate, they'd take your head off before you knew what was going on.

    a World Champion kickboxer, at the peak of his physical powers and he was a big strong lean athlete, throughout the book he repeatedly gets in fights and whatnot, most of the time he conveys the fact that before a scrap he never ever counted his chickens.

    Loads of folk who have never done any self defence reckon that after a year or two at it you'll be Jackie Chan and invincible, not true at all.

    The old saying a little knowledge is a dangerous thing applies so so much to self defence in my opinion.
    Contradicting yourself a bit there Rover ? Ok I'm posting this from a male perspective but like I stated in another discussion, TMA's such as Karate, TKD etc can give a guy the tools to defend yourself against Mr Average in striking. ( If it goes to the ground, your even as he knows little about ground grappling as Mr TMA does. Sorry but it's the truth )



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,720 ✭✭✭Sid_Justice


    yomchi wrote: »
    Katie is an amateur fighter, not professional.

    katie is a professional athlete competing in the sport of amateur boxing, she's on a irish sports council scholarship. it's not the same as being a professional soccer player but she's getting paid to train and that's my view on it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 314 ✭✭Mr Cawley


    katie taylor would knock out an average non trained man easily, she'd turn/step/swivel away from your attack and put one on your jaw before you'd blink!


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  • Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    HellsAngel wrote: »
    Contradicting yourself a bit there Rover ? Ok I'm posting this from a male perspective but like I stated in another discussion, TMA's such as Karate, TKD etc can give a guy the tools to defend yourself against Mr Average in striking. ( If it goes to the ground, your even as he knows little about ground grappling as Mr TMA does. Sorry but it's the truth )

    How am I contradicting myself ? I reckon a black belt in karate is not great but I would highly rate the higher grades. Also earlier when I mentioned about someone naturally handy not being bothered by a black belt in karate I was referring to folk with a black belt who were not otherwise handy or aggressive. About my own experience, not much really, 2 years kick boxing which I have already said I was not good at, a weekend or two at krav maga. I would be quite street wise and have only been in one physical altercation in my near 30 years of city dwelling.


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