Boer war- Why were Irishmen fighting Irishmen?

jonniebgood1 · 01-01-2012 8:26pm #1

Reference is made in 'the story of Ireland' to battles in the Boer war that saw Irishmen fighting irishmen in several battles in this conflict. I would like to look into this in more details to understand how this came to be. If anyone has any insight in this please contribute freely.

I have came across some background information on the British side and that of the Boers reflecting Irish participation:

The anti-recruiting campaign in Ireland reached its climax at the time of the Boer War. Constitutional nationalists and separatists associated the Boers’ fight against the British with their own struggle for home rule or independence, and the 200 soldiers of MacBride’s ‘Irish Brigade’, who fought with the Boers, were duly praised. But the gallantry of soldiers in the Irish regiments serving in South Africa was also acclaimed. There were around 28,358 Irish non-commissioned officers and men in the British army at the time and the 1st and 2nd battalions and the 3rd (militia) battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers saw active service in South Africa. http://www.historyireland.com///volumes/volume6/issue1/features/?id=176

So it seems both were commended but surely there must be more to the story with Irish travelling to a different hemisphere and ending up fighting each other?
How many Irish divisions of the British army were there and was the Irish representation proportionate?
How did nationalists end up in Southern Africa?
And how did they feel to be facing Irishmen?

francis1978 · 02-01-2012 2:12pm

Just a quick reply, I remeber seeing some where about the 1916 rebellion that there wasa rifle which had been used in the boer war, it had carvings on the stock etc. maybe someone who knows more can put up a link. On the subject of irish men fighting other irish men its has happened in numerous places, not least of all here in ireland, but in the US civil war, before that in the US war of independence, look up the San Patricos in the the US/ mexiocan wars.

Tazium · 02-01-2012 2:16pm

Because there was no other worthy opponent.

Owryan · 02-01-2012 2:25pm

Battalions from all the irish regiments served in the boer war. They enlisted in the british army so they expected to have to go on campaigns

The irish brigade that fought with the boers was only one of several international groups who were raised to resist british "imperialism".

mathepac · 02-01-2012 2:34pm

To answer part of your question in a different way, apparently as much as 30% of the British armed forces in the 19th century consisted of Irishmen. I can't cite references off-hand but I believe it gave rise to the saying in relation to the British Empire that "the Irish won it, the Scots ran it and the English lost it".

raindog.promo · 02-01-2012 2:35pm

Alcohol?

Cardinal Richelieu · 02-01-2012 5:16pm

Owryan wrote: »

Battalions from all the irish regiments served in the boer war. They enlisted in the british army so they expected to have to go on campaigns

The irish brigade that fought with the boers was only one of several international groups who were raised to resist british "imperialism".

Interesting reply on Roots Web.

Roots Web

The British Army has always recruited from the whole of the United Kingdom that included the whole of Ireland until 1922. Indeed Irish men provided a significant proportion of British Army manpower over the centuries, in both regiments with Irish names and Irish territorial affiliations, and in all other regiments and corps. At the time of the South African War of 1899-1902, the British Army included the following Irish regiments:

Cavalry: 4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards; 5th (Royal Irish) Lancers; 6th (Inniskilling) Dragoons; 8th (The King's Royal Irish) Hussars, 13th Hussars (King's Royal Irish).
Infantry: The Irish Guards (formed 1900); The Royal Irish Regiment disbanded 1922; The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers; The Royal Irish Rifles redesignated 1922 Royal Ulster Rifles; The Royal Irish Fusiliers (Princess Victoria's); The Connaught Rangers disbanded 1922; The Prince of Wales's Leinster Regiment (Royal Canadians) disbanded 1922; The Royal Munster
Fusiliers disbanded 1922; The Royal Dublin Fusiliers disbanded 1922.

A typical infantry regiment in 1899 consisted of two regular
battalions, some 1,000 men strong, a reserve (militia) battalion and two or more volunteer (part-time) battalions. However, the Irish Infantry regiments did not have any volunteer battalions.

The Second Boer War (South African War) was a major operational commitment involving elements of practically every regiment and corps in the period between 12 October 1899 to the Treaty of Vereeniging ending the war on 31 May 1902.

The following Irish regiments participated in the Second Boer war:

Cavalry: 5th (Royal Irish) Lancers; 6th (Inniskilling) Dragoons; 8th (The King's Royal Irish) Hussars; 13th Hussars (King's Royal Irish).

Infantry: The Royal Irish Regiment (1st Battalion); The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers (1st and 2nd Battalions); The Royal Irish Rifles (2nd Battalion);
The Royal Irish Fusiliers (Princess Victoria's) (2nd Battalion); The Connaught Rangers disbanded 1922; The Prince of Wales's Leinster Regiment(Royal Canadians) ; The Royal Munster Fusiliers (2nd Battalion); The Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

The only inducement to persuade any British citizen to enlist were the pay, the uniform, the prospects of travel and for many, the opportunity to improve oneself. There were different pay rates for different ranks and at times a bounty system, where men who extended their engagement were paid a
sum. The final inducement was the pension paid to men who served for 22+ years.

Foreign Brigades that fought for the Boers included

Scandinavian Corps
American
French
German
Holland
Irish
Italian
Russian
Swiss

On a sidenote among the Dutch Corps was one of Vincent Van Gogh brother's who committed suicide in POW camp.

Cornelis (‘Cor’) Vincent van Gogh (1867-1900) attended high school, and in 1884 became an apprentice at the engineering works of Egbert Haverkamp Begemann in Helmond. He worked in England for a while, in a factory in Lincoln, and in 1889 left for South Africa, where he worked for the Cornucopia Gold Company near Johannesburg. He also worked as a civil servant with the Netherlands South African Railway Company. In 1898 he married Anna Catherine Fuchs in Pretoria, but the marriage lasted only eight months. Cor fought as a volunteer in the Boer War. He committed suicide in 1900

jonniebgood1 · 02-01-2012 8:16pm

Owryan wrote: »

Battalions from all the irish regiments served in the boer war. They enlisted in the british army so they expected to have to go on campaigns

The irish brigade that fought with the boers was only one of several international groups who were raised to resist british "imperialism".

francis1978 wrote: »

On the subject of irish men fighting other irish men its has happened in numerous places, not least of all here in ireland, but in the US civil war, before that in the US war of independence, look up the San Patricos in the the US/ mexiocan wars.

The Irish were in America in large numbers though. Why were they in South Africa or did they go just to fight the British?

The answer it seems is most likely a bit of both.
A look at the causes of the Boer war shows that the situation was similar to that in Ireland with a clash of ideology:

Two political ideologies namely British imperialism and Afrikaner nationalism were to clash at the turn of the nineteenth century in South Africa. Britain sought the unification of whole of South Africa under the British flag. The existence of the two Boer republics namely the South African Republic (Transvaal) and the Orange Free State therefore was a stumbling block. The two republics on the other hand wanted to preserve their independence and to build their republics into regional forces. They were therefore not prepared to become part of a united South Africa under British authority. http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlcar2/Boer_War.htm

It seems that part of the opposition to the British came from Irishmen working in the mines in Traansval.

A Pro-Boer campaign in Britain and Ireland also took off drawing public attention to the conflict and this would naturally attract Irish nationalists. Thus the campaign had strong support in Ireland.

The events of October 1899 were the first of an extended nationalist campaign to draw widespread attention to the South African conflict. The nationalist campaign was designed to unsettle the perpetuation of British power in Ireland through solidarity with the Boers. Anglo-Boer belligerence highlighted how multi-faceted a movement Irish nationalism had become since the demise of Parnell in 1890-91. As F.S.L. Lyons wrote in Ireland Since the Famine, ‘… the outbreak of the South African War offered a chance for nationalists of different persuasions to combine in opposition to a British policy, which all of them deeply and instinctively abhorred…’ Although revolutionary nationalists utilised England’s difficulties in South Africa with the most fervour, constitutional nationalists were not blind to the usefulness of the conflict as a means of highlighting their desired political objectives. Men like John Dillon and William Redmond were vehement in their support for the Boers and opposition to the British invasion of the Republics. They referenced the war as an unlawful instance of attempted Imperial dominance and were not opposed to voicing these opinions at Westminster, the epicentre of British politics. In fact, Dillon was so avid a supporter of the Boer cause, he drew the attention of one of the figureheads of Boer solidarity, General Christian de Wet, who wrote to Davitt asking him to, ‘tell Mr. Dillon we are all grateful to him for his speeches in Parliament.’ http://scolairestaire.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48:irish-nationalism-a-the-anglo-boer-war&catid=34:irish-history&Itemid=27

The "Dublin transvaal committee" was set up in 1899 to agitate against the British (as shown in this anti recruitment poster from the era).

I would imagine there should be links from this anti-British committee to people who would later be involved in the 1916 rising and war of independence. It could have been an education in both history and organisation if this was the case. Did this comittee have a role with the Irish Transvaal brigade?

Fratton Fred · 02-01-2012 8:24pm

Not everyone in an Irish regiment was Irish, just as not all Irishmen joined Irish regiments.

My Great Grandfather joined the Royal Enniskilling Fusiliers who were, at that time, based in Portsmouth and had been for a while. Any local lad joining the army would have joined whoever was local at the time.

He was seriously injured on the first day of the battle for Hart's Hill and was discharged from the army.

R.Dub.Fusilier · 02-01-2012 8:46pm

As Ffred mentioned above not all members of Irish regiments were irish born but at the time the percentage would have been high and regiments with english county names stationed in Ireland would have recuited localy.

from what i have read the Irish pro-Boer brigades mostly worked in the mines , as did those who joined anti-Boer forces in SA.

McBrides Brigade was the most active of the two Irish commandos and even captured some lads from Dublin.

on a whole the anti-recuitment protests only managed to slow down recuitment into the army.

jonniebgood1 · 02-01-2012 8:49pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Not everyone in an Irish regiment was Irish, just as not all Irishmen joined Irish regiments.

My Great Grandfather joined the Royal Enniskilling Fusiliers who were, at that time, based in Portsmouth and had been for a while. Any local lad joining the army would have joined whoever was local at the time.

He was seriously injured on the first day of the battle for Hart's Hill and was discharged from the army.

There was a short summary in the Irish Times last May of the Irish involvement in the British army. I would presume the lack of work in Ireland would be the reason for the larger proportional representation of Irishmen.

In the 1750s, Irish recruitment to French service had fallen away: and as Britain's overseas empire expanded enormously, Irish recruitment into the British forces rose dramatically. By then, the East India Company's army had very many Irish, and so too had the Royal Marines, the Royal Navy and the Royal Artillery. In the 1790s Irish Catholics were, in effect, conscripted into defending Ireland and Britain against the threat posed by revolutionary France. By the end of the Napoleonic wars, perhaps 200,000 Irish may have served in the British army and navy. During the Crimean War more than 40 per cent of the rank and file of the British army were Irish Catholics, and the first two recipients of the Victoria Cross were Irish servicemen.

The Irish proportion in the British army declined throughout the later 19th century as the ravages of the Great Famine and the resulting mass emigration greatly reduced the Irish population base. However, despite a growing campaign against Irish recruitment led by Maud Gonne and James Connolly ("enlisting in the English army is treason to Ireland") by 1901 Irish soldiers still made up 13.5 per cent of the British army even though they comprised only 12 per cent of the overall population.

The heroic exploits of Irish soldiers in the South African war won them many accolades and honours. Irish soldiers were similarly over-represented in 1914 when the Great War began and Irish recruitment continued at a respectable level throughout that conflict. The Easter Rising of 1916 had no discernible impact on Irish recruiting, which actually increased during 1918. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0516/1224297084456.html

A look at the actual figures would be interesting. I have seen them recently but cannot remember where.

At the start of the 19th century, Irish soldiers formed a considerable proportion of the British army, and by 1830, there were more Irish than English soldiers in the army. http://www.cruithni.org.uk/overview/over_10.html

Do you have any more on the battle Fred? Were the Irish pro-Boer brigades involved?

The Scientician · 02-01-2012 10:48pm

The conflict seemed to have fit in with the Fenian idea that any attack on the Empire like in Canada in the 1860s strengthened Ireland's position. There's also the simple old adage, my enemy's enemy is my friend. Many of those who threw their lot in with the Boers were also working in the area at the time and perhaps they were worried what repercussions would be if the Boers had won. Edited to add: I mean repercussions for them if they didn't side with the Boers and the Boers won.

Anyway, I'm not sure if it's entirely relevant, but I was reading a local history website and came across an account by Richard Coleman of Swords, Co. Dublin at the time of the Second Boer War. It appears to have been transcribed or written badly in the first place so I've edited it slightly for comprehension but anyway here's the relevant passage:

About this time 1898-1900 the Boer war was raging, we were all for
the Boers. The policemen's children and the Protestant children
were all for the British, the sweet shops used to sell little
coloured badges of the British and Boer leaders for half penny.
The R.I.C. kids wore badges of the Lord Kitcherner, General Buller
and Lord Roberts with strips of red white and blue ribbon.
We Boer fans wore badges of general Kruger De Wet and general
Gronje B]Cronjé presumably[/B.
There used to be pictures showing the relief of Lady Smyth and
also of the British being entangled in barbed wire crossing
the River Modder, some of the local militia of the British army were sent out and gave vivid accounts of the starvation when
their food train was captured and they had to eat the cavalry horses.
There were great accounts of the Boer's ''Long Tom'',
apparently it was the only large field piece they had.
A brother of one of the local farmers, John Duff, left the U.S.A
with a party of Irishmen to join McBride's Irish Brigade who
fought with the Boers. He never could come back to Ireland while
the British were in power.

Cardinal Richelieu · 02-01-2012 10:57pm

I read on other South African sites that the Irish Brigade were more trouble than it was worth at times due to frequent breakdowns of discipline due to alcohol or food. The below source points out that most of the Irish in the brigade were Irish American, Arthur Lynch was also an Australian by birth.

SAmilitaryhistory.org

Irishmen in the Service of the Boer Republics
Up to this point the Irish contribution to the British military effort in South Africa had been discussed, whether this contribution was in the form of Irish units forming part of the regular British military establishment or autonomous ('colonial') units, as in the case of Driscoll's Scouts. However, it should be remembered that the Irish military tradition with regard to the British was in the shape of a two-edged sword. Whereas many Irishmen served in units composed of their countrymen which were to found distinguished records in the annals of the British Army, others remained bitter opponents of the Protestant monarchy. This was particularly true of those Catholics who, during the course of the 18th century served as 'soldiers of fortune' (the 'wild geese'), and were particularly prominent in the 'Irish Brigade' of the French Army. This tradition of mercenary service in foreign armies, conjoined with opposition to Britain, reappeared in the Anglo-Boer War in the form of the Irish Brigade, which served with the forces of the Boer Republics. Divided into two sections ot 100 men each, led by Cols Blake and Lynch, it comprised mainly Irish Americans, whose motives varied widely.

Col. J.Y.F. Blake

They either loved fighting, hated the British, or had high hopes of future rewards from their employers (and frequently all these motives were present at once). In common with the other foreign corps serving with the Boers, the Irish Brigade adopted Boer tactics. Generally speaking, they were courageous but inferior to the Boers in skill, and more than on one occasion, (e.g., at Elandslaagte and Magersfontein) allowed themselves to be surrounded, captured or destroyed. Relations between the Irish Brigade and the Boers were often strained (as were relations between other foreign volunteers and the Boers). The former invariably expected more than they were either accorded or received(7). Blake's section distinguished itself at Pepworth, near Ladysmith, where it stood its ground under a hail of British shrapnel, dragging a great deal of ammunition up the hill. This unit was later engaged in the operations at Brandfort and in the surrounding regions. The Section under Col Lynch was also involved in the fighting around Ladysmith and was particularly acclaimed following its stand near Dundee in the general Boer withdrawal. Indeed, it was said to be the one Foreign Corps in the general confusion of the time that achieved some distinction. By resisting the British advance for over an hour it gained valuable time for the remainder of the force engaged. Towards the end of the War Lynch's section was in action in the Barberton and neighbouring regions.

Officers of the Irish Brigade outside Ladysmith in 1899.

Pro British Irish units were also formed in South Africa drawn from Irish living in South Africa.

samiltaryhistory.org

Autonomous South African Units shaped by Irish Influences
The first South African unit with a truly Irish background was the Cape Town Irish Rifles, raised by Maj O'Reilly in 1885. In 1891 the unit was absorbed into the Duke of Edinburgh's Own Volunteer Rifles as 'H' (Irish) Company. Regrettably, there is very little information available concerning the Cape Town Irish Rifles specifically, but it is hoped that further research will produce additional information. The helmet plate of the regiment is a magnificent specimen and closely resembles that of the Connaught Rangers who were contemporary. The Cape Town Irish Rifles may be said to represent the first predecessor of the South African Irish Regiment, in so far as it was the first indigenous South African unit with a distinct ethnic Irish component.
During the Anglo-Boer War, 1899-1902, the second predecessor of The South African Irish Regiment was formed. Driscoll's Scouts was founded by Capt D.P. Driscoll, who had previously served in Burma during the earlier part of the Anglo-Boer War and who decided to come to South Africa with the specific intention of forming an Irish unit. This was motivated by the losses suffered by Irish units within the British Army during the early battles of the War. Eventually totalling a strength of just under 500 men of all ranks, it first served with the Colonial Division and was present at the siege of Wepener and operations around Lindley and Fouriesburg. In one particular action at Wepener, in which Driscoll's Scouts assisted the Cape Mounted Riflemen, the Scouts had an adventurous and hazardous ride across open ground from their bivouac, being exposed to the concentrated fire of two Maxim machine guns, a pom-pom, small arms fire and, at the end, to a barrage of shells from a field gun, during their entire four kilometre ride. Their action helped to stabilize the British position(6). Later the Scouts formed part of 8 Division and were part of the force concentrated to oppose the incursions into the Cape Colony by the forces of Gen Smuts. Driscoll's Scouts also took part in the final operations directed against Gen de la Rey in the Western Transvaal.

Major D.P. Driscoll, DSO, commander of Driscoll's Scouts during the Anglo-Boer War 1899-1902.

Fratton Fred · 03-01-2012 10:52am

I found this, which may be of interest http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/no-passingbells-for-queens-irish-who-died-like-cattle-at-the-battle-of-harts-hill-46400.html

It is a little dramatic, but from what I have read about the battle (whilst researching my family tree) the reports of the dead and dieing laying in the heat for the entire day seems pretty true.

I believe at the end of the second day of battle, the Boers and British agreed a cease fire to remove the dead and wounded from the battle field.

Snickers Man · 03-01-2012 11:52am

My mother, a Dubliner, used to sing a street song learned from her childhood in the 1930s. To the tune of "The British Grenadiers":*

The Boers they were marching
And the British went to fight
The Boers took out their rifles
And they blew them out of sight

Sound the bugles Sound the drums.
Three cheers for Kruger!
To hell with the Queen and her ould tambourine
And Hurrah for Kruger's army.

Paul Kruger (pronounced Krewdger in the Dublin vernacular) was the president of the Boer Republic. The "ould tambourine" was a reference to the shield of Britannia depicted on the old Penny piece at the time. It looked like a tambourine.

My mother was familiar with the song despite the fact that one of her uncles had served with the British army in South Africa and had died there before the First World War. He may or may not have been in the Boer War; we suspect he was too young.

It is not at all unusual for men from stateless nations, as Ireland was at the time, to end up fighting on different sides in the same war. Many Polish generals of the second world war, for example, had fought for one of three armies in the First, depending largely on what part of Poland they came from; Russia, Austria Hungary or Germany.

* For those of you unfamiliar with, or with an aversion to, military music, The British Grenadiers is the marching tune used as the theme music for Blackadder Goes Forth.

ejmaztec · 03-01-2012 12:50pm

Snickers Man wrote: »

My mother, a Dubliner, used to sing a street song learned from her childhood in the 1930s. To the tune of "The British Grenadiers":*

The Boers they were marching
And the British went to fight
The Boers took out their rifles
And they blew them out of sight

Sound the bugles Sound the drums.
Three cheers for Kruger!
To hell with the Queen and her ould tambourine
And Hurrah for Kruger's army.

Paul Kruger (pronounced Krewdger in the Dublin vernacular) was the president of the Boer Republic. The "ould tambourine" was a reference to the shield of Britannia depicted on the old Penny piece at the time. It looked like a tambourine.

My mother was familiar with the song despite the fact that one of her uncles had served with the British army in South Africa and had died there before the First World War. He may or may not have been in the Boer War; we suspect he was too young.

It is not at all unusual for men from stateless nations, as Ireland was at the time, to end up fighting on different sides in the same war. Many Polish generals of the second world war, for example, had fought for one of three armies in the First, depending largely on what part of Poland they came from; Russia, Austria Hungary or Germany.

* For those of you unfamiliar with, or with an aversion to, military music, The British Grenadiers is the marching tune used as the theme music for Blackadder Goes Forth.

That second verse doesn't rhyme too well, was something lost in translation, or couldn't they find a word to rhyme with Kruger?:D

jonniebgood1 · 03-01-2012 1:58pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I found this, which may be of interest http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/no-passingbells-for-queens-irish-who-died-like-cattle-at-the-battle-of-harts-hill-46400.html

It is a little dramatic, but from what I have read about the battle (whilst researching my family tree) the reports of the dead and dieing laying in the heat for the entire day seems pretty true.

I believe at the end of the second day of battle, the Boers and British agreed a cease fire to remove the dead and wounded from the battle field.

The General refered to in the independent piece was Fitzroy Hart. He came in for criticism from his compatriots in the British army but seemed unrepentent in letters written about the events in the Boer war. General Hart was Irish but I have not found from where. I found his letters in regard of the battle at Harts hill (Tugela Heights) online where they can be read at this link. (links on left panel of page)

To the Editor of the " Times "

SIB, I have read to-day in the Times of the 29th inst.,
with reference to the battle of Colenso, that Sir Redvers
Buller said to the Royal Commission as follows :

"As the guns were getting into position I noticed
that the 5th Brigade were advancing beyond the posi-
tion that I had allotted to them, and sent at once to
stop them. My messenger was delayed by bad ground,
and the brigade, continuing to advance, came under fire.
Very shortly afterwards they received from me an order
by a second messenger to withdraw at once out of
range."

Allow me to say, with full respect due from me to
Sir Redvers Buller's military rank, that this statement is
incompatible with facts. There was no such position
allotted to my brigade, nor was it withdrawn out of
range on account of any unauthorised advance.

So he gave the standard military response, he was acting under orders.

Sir Redvers Buller's orders, given first verbally by
himself, were soon after issued in writing, and are
public. The original sketch-map and orders are before
me now.

With regard to sending the Irish soldiers into an unprotected loop in the river General Hart offered this:

The enemy's fire encountered in the loop was warm;
it was cross-fire from three directions of invisible en-
trenchments on the farther bank, and bombardment from
the hills. There was no cover ; still the Irishmen forged
slowly and surely ahead in short rushes, lying flat between
to send back much lead where they thought lead came
from, and always gaining ground.

The leading men had got to 300 yards from the Kaffir's
ford when Colonel Stopford rode up to me in the middle
of the loop and said Sir Redvers Buller had sent him to
say he could see we could not do it meaning force the
passage of the Tugela so the brigade was to retire, and
Sir Redvers Buller would cover its retreat by artillery
fire. This was done. There was no question of having
advanced beyond any allotted position, no corrective
recall out of range.

Since the war I have learnt, by personal inspection of
the ground, that no ford ever existed at the place marked
on the sketch-map ; and I have been told by my an-
tagonist, General Botha, that the water at the Kaffir's
ford at the time was up to a man's armpits at least.
The Tugela, therefore, was unfordable by infantry in
action that day, and the Kaffir was a delusion. I am,
Sir, your obedient servan

The letter quoted is from page 310 approx of the linked book of his letters. The same events are described in greater detail in a letter (or diary entry) that follows this in the same book. It does not apportion the same level of blame and seems to precede his public criticism in the newspapers which was 3 years later.

ejmaztec · 03-01-2012 3:19pm

Is there anything to show what happened to any Irishmen captured by the British? Were they treated in the same way as other POWs, or did they face treason charges? Things must have been complicated if they were in the camps, some of which would presumably have had Irish guards.

Snickers Man · 03-01-2012 3:38pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

That second verse doesn't rhyme too well, was something lost in translation, or couldn't they find a word to rhyme with Kruger?:D

It fits the scansion pretty well though. Try singing it out loud.

jonniebgood1 · 03-01-2012 4:34pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

Is there anything to show what happened to any Irishmen captured by the British? Were they treated in the same way as other POWs, or did they face treason charges? Things must have been complicated if they were in the camps, some of which would presumably have had Irish guards.

Good question. I don't know the answer to this yet but from the other side of things the Irish soldiers captured by McBrides Brigade for the Boers I have read that they were well treated. Donal McCrackens book on the Boer war alleges that McBrides brigade tried to get their fellow Irish men to change sides :

"Even 10,000 kilometres from home nothing was simple for the Irish." Quite - pace Roger Casement, who later in the war denounced the Boers for allowing Irish prisoners of war (captured as British soldiers) to enlist as soldiers in the pro-Boer Irish Brigade. Tut tut. And what is one to make of Arthur Lynch, a fighter for the Boers who was sentenced to death by the British but reprieved, and later became MP for Galway, later still a colonel in the British army? http://www.roguery.com/family/docs/boer.htm

Belfast · 11-01-2012 6:36pm

why did the Irish fight in the Boer war?
part of along tradition of the Irish fight on both sides of wars.

The Irish are always on the winning and losing side of all these wars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Igz3EoorJV8

Looks like the Irish will fight on any war any where and normally both sides.

Royal Dublin Fusiliers

10th Tennessee Irish
Brigade Regiment 1864 Confederate army

johnny_doyle · 12-01-2012 12:40am

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

A typical infantry regiment in 1899 consisted of two regular
battalions, some 1,000 men strong, a reserve (militia) battalion and two or more volunteer (part-time) battalions. However, the Irish Infantry regiments did not have any volunteer battalions.

not sure the Roots web poster is totally correct. RDF for example had volunteer/militia battalions as follows :

3rd Battn was formerly the Kildare militia
4th Battn was formerly the City of Dublin militia
5th Battn was formerly the County of Dublin militia

5th Battn the Royal Irish Rifles was the South Down militia and fought in S. Africa, as did the 3rd Battn Leinster Regt, formerly the King's Co militia.

5th Battn the Royal Munster Fusiliers was the Limerick County militia. They didn't serve in S.A. but were posted to Malta to allow a regular battalion to go . The North Cork Militia had somehow become the 9th Battn Kings Royal Rifle Corps and served in SA.

Donal McCracken in "Forgotten Protest" indicates 10 Irish militia/volunteer battalions were asked to serve in SA.

Amongst those trying to prevent the militia and any Irish leaving to fight the Boers were Maud Gonne, James Connolly and Arthur Griffith.

Interesting to see Belfast's posting of the Fredericksburg video. Just been reading about the Irish Brigades who there (Ian Kenneally's Courage and Conflict). As per the Boer War, a lot of effort to prevent Irish emigrants leaving to serve in the Union forces.

Belfast · 21-01-2012 2:20am

Irish Fighting Irish
By Brian McGinn
"During the US Civil War of 1861-65, the sentries of encamped Union and Confederate armies were often posted within shouting distance. A story is told of a pair of Irish pickets who one night engaged in a good-natured verbal duel across a no man's land.

'What are you fighting with them Rebels for', queried the Union sentry?

'Eleven dollars a month', replied the Confederate picket. 'Why the hell are you fighting for those damn Yankees?'

'Two dollars more a month than you', replied the triumphant Union soldier."

http://www.illyria.com/irish/mcginn_irishagains.html

jemaro · 08-01-2014 8:24pm

I would like to share this photo of my Great Uncle who was a Lenihan from Limerick. My Mother and Father were from Limerick so it would be her Uncle. I left Limerick when I was 9 for New York with my family. I have retired to sunny Florida.

The man on the right is Lenihan (don't know his first name). My Uncle Edward gave me this photo back in the 80's and explaining to me that the man on the left had lost his arm in that Campaign. On there lapel is the 3-leaf Shamrock signifying the Irish Regiment.

My Mother would always say, "The Irish fought everyones battles except their own."

Enjoy,
Jemaro

GideonMcGrane · 10-01-2014 8:06pm

I read MacBride's book some time ago, I think it was called John McBride's Brigade. Quite a good read.

MacBride says that the Brigade performed well and won significant victories against the British. He paints a picture whereby the enemy ran away more often than not when The Irish Brigade showed up. I'm pretty sure he spoke of fighting against the Munsters or other 'Irish' British regiment.

He blames others for its downfall. The irish-American leader took over when MacBride had to come home and discipline became lax. Also the Boers downgraded the Brigades involvement and moral failed, hence the drinking and other problems.

crockholm · 11-01-2014 8:48pm

I had a great-grand uncle who allegedly (according to my grandmother) fought against the British Army in South Africa.His name was Dan O Mahoney,his reasoning being that he was republican/anti-British (whereas said grandmother was definitely more pro-British).
There was a strange tree growing in the Towns disused Railway station that my grandmother claimed was brought over as a seed from her uncle in South Africa after his war effort was over.The tree and remaining stationhouse were demolished circa 1991.

jemaro · 11-01-2014 9:09pm

crockholm wrote: »

I had a great-grand uncle who allegedly (according to my grandmother) fought against the British Army in South Africa.His name was Dan O Mahoney,his reasoning being that he was republican/anti-British (whereas said grandmother was definitely more pro-British).
There was a strange tree growing in the Towns disused Railway station that my grandmother claimed was brought over as a seed from her uncle in South Africa after his war effort was over.The tree and remaining stationhouse were demolished circa 1991.

From what I've been reading there were about 200 Irishmen that answered the call to fight with the Dutch as well as many other men from other countries. They did so against unpopular British imperialism which eventually would take hold in our own Easter, 1916 uprising.

GideonMcGrane · 11-01-2014 10:45pm

Dont know if this is posed or an actual action photo, if it is genuine it must be one of the first action war photos. Reputed to be the Irish Brigade.

GideonMcGrane · 11-01-2014 10:49pm

Irish Brigade, MacBride on the right.

Very wild west, if you said it was the James gang you might believe it :eek:

RIRI · 13-01-2014 10:55pm

Like jemaro just wanted to share the attached. It's my Great Grand Fathers Medal record from the Boer War - 10093 Cpl Chalkley W.G. Now he wasn't Irish, he was from London & in the Medical Corps, he was later posted to Ireland where where met my Great Grand Mother.

johnny_doyle · 14-01-2014 12:01pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

Is there anything to show what happened to any Irishmen captured by the British? Were they treated in the same way as other POWs, or did they face treason charges? Things must have been complicated if they were in the camps, some of which would presumably have had Irish guards.

Arthur Lynch faced a charge of High Treason after the Boer War under a 1543 Act of Parliament. When arrested and tried he was MP for Galway. Edward Carson was involved in the trial as Solicitor General. Lynch was found guilty and sentenced to hang; the sentence was commuted and he was later pardoned. He was involved in raising a battalion for the British Army during WW1.

Not heard of any other treason (not a capital offence) or high treason (a capital offence) trials relating to the Irish Brigades in the Boer War.

Roger Casement was with the British on political duties in South Africa during the Boer War and awarded the Queen's South Africa campaign medal. In 1916, he was charged with High Treason under an older 1351 statute. Casement's colleague in Germany and at Banna Strand, Robert Monteith, was also a recipient of the Queen's South Africa medal.

Boer war- Why were Irishmen fighting Irishmen?

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