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Lee Kuan Yew, founder of Singapore dies.

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    #32
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    No, you just called anyone who spoke positively of him a hypocrite, while being happy to do the same for Chavez who ultimately was no different, beyond being less successful.

    I'd bow out, if I were you; you've lost all credibility here.

    When did I ever have credibility with you?


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    #33
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    karma_ wrote: »
    When did I ever have credibility with you?
    You misunderstand; you've lost credibility with pretty much everyone here.


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    #34
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    karma_ wrote: »
    Again Permabear, I'm just coming from an angle of intent, no more, no less. I just found it a more interesting point in this when I saw where the eulogies were emanating from. How is intent for one admired but not the other?
    Yet admiration for Yew's good intentions is hypocritical, but for Chavez's intentions is all right? Or are you presuming that only Chavez had good intentions?


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    #35
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    You misunderstand; you've lost credibility with pretty much everyone here.

    You know, I think I will bow out now.

    By the way, not the only double standard on this forum I see.


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    #36
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #37
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,472 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    I think there is a couple of significant differences between LKY and Chavez. Guarded approval for LKY's economic legacy is not the same as open and warm approval for Chavez.

    The key difference is that LKY was successful at promoting economic prosperity for his people. Chavez on the other hand was not. That's more than a trite observation: economic prosperity brings political stability. Its a virtuous circle, and not one Chavez was able to achieve - or even seemed interested in achieving.

    Singapore has practically no natural resources and is short of everything, including water. Venezeula on the other hand has huge oil reserves. Singapore's economic success is built on a hugely open, trade orientated economy, friendly to FDI and business, and politically stable. Of course, thats not to disregard that LKY also directly interfered in the economy to achieve specific ends, but political stability and business friendly environments do require rule of law. The case of Singapore is obviously going to be cited by those who see free trade, low taxes and business friendly policies as key to economic development. I dont think LKY was an anarcho-capitalist though, far from it. I think he just went with what worked.

    Venezuela on the other hand has huge natural resources - Chavez had an immense advantage, which he wasted. The economy of Venezeula is a basket case. As the oil price has collapsed, the tide has gone out and all the mismanagement, populism, corruption, incompetence and hostility to business and trade has come home to roost. Say what you like about Chavez, well meaning or not he had no idea how to develop or run a successful economy.

    The other difference to my mind is that LKY was an authoritarian, but within the rule of the law (though easier because he was writing it I guess). Chavez was a populist dictator - a political streetfighter. The difference might seem slight, but Chavez spent much of his time pursuing slights, rabble rousing, insulting political opponents and foreign investors, and picking fights with domestic business and otherwise playing to the gallery. All of this served to undermine the rule of law in Venezeula and create a state of chaos that is obviously not going to be either politically or economically successful.

    I don't approve of either, but Chavez supporters were thrilled by his strongman antics so its a bit rich that LKYs undoubted economic/political success is struck out on the basis of LKY suing reporters for libel and some odd social engineering attempts.


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    #38
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    karma_ wrote: »
    Again Permabear, I'm just coming from an angle of intent, no more, no less. I just found it a more interesting point in this when I saw where the eulogies were emanating from. How is intent for one admired but not the other?

    That is the ultimate cop out.

    Perhaps you should re-read my post as you speak like a classic politician.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94821508&postcount=18

    Note this part.
    He was regarded as the ultimate practical politician who would dump policy if it did not work even though ideologically if could be favored. He looked at the results of his polices not the good intentions which the vast majority of politicians do. Every politician has good intentions but when policies fail, they normally double down and keep at it rather than admit failure and change. He was not afraid of this.

    Chavez and his cronies may have the same intent as Lee Kuan Yew, however the latter is judged on the results while the former is judged on his intent. Funny that, one is the card carrying socialist the other the ultimate pragmatist. Again, its a cop out. One should ALWAYS judge a legacy on the results as for that is what ultimately matters....

    One country is rich in natural resources (second largest oil reserves in the world) yet one cannot buy simple goods like toilet paper or bread. The other has no natural resources but affords its citizens a quality of life unparalleled anywhere else in the region and similar to that of places like Switzerland. So yes, people will look somewhat favorably to LKY and his achievements.


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    #39
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    On the matter of LKY suing reporters for libel. Is this not fair game, or do people think reporters should be allowed to say what they like? Of all the libel cases LKY brought to court he never lost.


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    #40
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    http://www.city-journal.org/2015/eon0323td.html

    a good article by Theodore Dalrymple on Singapore and Lee Kuan Yew

    I wish we had a leader like LKY in Ireland or even in Europe


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    #41
    feargale
    Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    porsche959 wrote: »
    ^ fourth post and and we're Godwinned. :)

    I don't want to comment for or against the fourth post but:
    Fifth post and we're Godwinlawed. Godwin simply postulated that Hitler or Naziism would sooner or later come up in internet discussion, or words to that effect. He never said it was a mortal sin to mention Hitler or Nazis or compare them to something. Godwin is now a cyber-hostage, an infallible cyber-Pope, almost as ubiquitous as Adolf himself. Maybe that was Godwin's plan, to achieve immortality.
    Anyone remember that scene in The Life of Brian where the man was being stoned to death for uttering "Jehovah"? And as he was stoned he shouted "Jehovah, Jehovah, Jehovah." Here, stone me to f---g death. Hitler, Hiter, Hitler. Naziism, Naziism, Naziism. Third Reich, Third Reich, Third Reich!


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    #42
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    karma_ wrote: »
    Nah mate, it sums up your philosophy that the economy trumps human rights. Well played missing the entire point by the way. Let's just dispense with democracy while we're at it eh?

    Considering that Singapore's economic strategy since independence has been essentially sending out girls in bikinis holding giant signs saying "we're an offshore tax haven! Come here and hide all your taxable income!" it's not even really a case of the economy trumping human rights, it a case of the private law (where privilege literally comes from) of a tiny few trumping the rights of the majority.


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    #43
    Duffy the Vampire Slayer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/49691/fareed-zakaria/a-conversation-with-lee-kuan-yew

    An interesting interview with him here.


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