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Boards Beef Discussion Group

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  • #422
    reilig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    blue5000 wrote: »
    Can anyone post a link to indo?

    Article doesn't appear to be on line yet.


  • #423
    Muckit
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Muckit


    blue5000 wrote: »
    Can anyone post a link to indo?
    Sorry blue5000, I read it in the paper itself and couldn't find a link to it online!!


  • #424
    freedominacup
    Registered Users Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    rancher wrote: »
    Dawn meats did some trials on dairy bull calves, never saw any results, does any one know how they went, calves wouldn't need to be any dearer than they are now

    They wanted them done too young at too light a weight with too much meal required to leave much profit.


  • #425
    freedominacup
    Registered Users Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    moy83 wrote: »
    Shirley will drive the price of the fr calves up another few bob for the dairy boys , ye are pulling it in every side freedom :p

    We're doing FR bull beef here on and off for more than 20 years. We made great money on calves bought in winter '08 and '09 for €60-€80 and grain at €125-€150. We were getting some looks in the marts that time "buying those yokes", "what would ye be doin' with them":rolleyes:.


  • #426
    Farmer Pudsey
    Registered Users Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    reilig wrote: »
    No doubt it was on some of the best land in the country with 10 week winters, calves knee deep in grass for 9 months of the year etc. ?

    I suppose don't knock it till you try it.
    Would it suit many part-timers to have to mix up milk morning and evening?
    It kinda brings you back to work load of the dairy farmer - twice a day for several months of the year. The day of going away with the wife and kids for a night would be lost. At least with a suckler you only have to be around when she's calving - which is quite often at night!

    Calves are not that bad biggest issue is having suitable housing not just some old house to rear a few in. It is a totally different matter rearing 30-50 calves buying at 10days to 4 weeks of age, Biggest issue is bring in a second or third bunch as disease builds up there is about 8-10 weeks work in them and that is bringing in 2-3 bunches.
    rancher wrote: »
    Dawn meats did some trials on dairy bull calves, never saw any results, does any one know how they went, calves wouldn't need to be any dearer than they are now
    freedominacup wrote: »
    They wanted them done too young at too light a weight with too much meal required to leave much profit.

    This is the issue with the fresian bull beef the factories want them from April-June to fill a gap in supply but do not want to pay a premium. It is unenomical in Ireland as we have no access to by-product. Grain based diets are now too expensive for these as conversion rates are not good enough. You are also fighting nature as these animals do not mature until 30 months. Even killing at 18-20 months is a struggle.

    Teagasc did a trial on them and the 16 month was the least profitabe. In Ireland to go through a grain based finishing period you need a long grass based period to cover costs due to no access to cheap by-products.
    freedominacup wrote: »
    We're doing FR bull beef here on and off for more than 20 years. We made great money on calves bought in winter '08 and '09 for €60-€80 and grain at €125-€150. We were getting some looks in the marts that time "buying those yokes", "what would ye be doin' with them":rolleyes:.

    There is a great opportunity to buy those yokes again even yearling fresians are under priced compare to other cattle. I am sorry I filled the end of last year. If not I be buying any good fresian I would come accross.

    It amazes me the way intelligant people cannot do the sums A hereford cross will make 300 euro a contenintal more a good fresian a month old 100 when they are slaughtered at two years there may not be that much between them especially the Hereford and the Fresian. Even in allowing for the hereford premium and the higher QA the fresian looks the best value oyt there


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  • #427
    pakalasa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,552 ✭✭✭pakalasa


    We used to finish 30 month old British Friesan type bullocks years ago. I reckon we made more money then, than we ever did. But these were all R grading types.
    In the article a figure of 2,000 Euro per hectare was touted. That seems incredible, in fairness. Oh, it was Gross Profit of course.:(


  • #428
    Dozer1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Dozer1


    presume this is the artical, alot of profit is added when you have their land type though

    http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/move-over-suckling-and-make-way-for-new-look-calftobeef-29138335.html


  • #429
    Muckit
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Muckit


    reilig wrote: »
    I suppose don't knock it till you try it.
    Would it suit many part-timers to have to mix up milk morning and evening?

    Of course it would all depend on your setup. Not that I'm that well up on it, nor claim to be. But debate is good.

    Things have moved on a bit from the galvanized bucket. I'm sure a lad could tailor a handy setup that would take a lot of the work out of it. But perhaps you are right, it might be a tad labour intensive... more so than watching suckler cows at calving time and watching again for heats and bringing them in for AI? Debatable! The more weight dry stock put on, they are making beef = €€.

    I wonder, hypothetically speaking, if a part time suckler lad could pull €35K+ from the dairy calf to beef system, would he be tempted to end his love affair with the suckler cow, change his farming enterprise, be a 'stay at home Dad' and rear a few calves as well as a few kids?

    There might be more (money wise) out of the calves!! :D


  • #430
    reilig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    Muckit wrote: »
    Of course it would all depend on your setup. Not that I'm that well up on it, nor claim to be. But debate is good.

    Things have moved on a bit from the galvanized bucket. I'm sure a lad could tailor a handy setup that would take a lot of the work out of it. But perhaps you are right, it might be a tad labour intensive... more so than watching suckler cows at calving time and watching again for heats and bringing them in for AI? Debatable! The more weight dry stock put on, they are making beef = €€.

    I wonder, hypothetically speaking, if a part time suckler lad in wexford, waterford, cork, kilkenny, carlow, kildare, Tipperary or laoiscould pull €35K+ from the dairy calf to beef system, would he be tempted to end his love affair with the suckler cow, change his farming enterprise, be a 'stay at home Dad' and rear a few calves as well as a few kids?

    There might be more (money wise) out of the calves!! :D

    I edited that a little bit for you. :D

    The article did suggest that it was a more sustainable enterprise on good land. I seem to recall he said something like " there's nothing like a suckler cow for producing milk while grazing on poor land".

    Like suckling, if enough people change over to it, then there will only be profit for those guys with natural advantage such as good land and short winters. If sucks go to the price that they were last year, there will be nothing in it for anyone but the dairy men.


  • #431
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Just to clarify I'm not actually John Shirley;):D


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  • #432
    just do it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,422 ✭✭✭just do it


    He refers to rough grazing rather than wet land. I think this is important as the calves-yearlings would potentially suit soft land better than 700kg suckler cows. That's assuming the land can grow quality grass.

    What is obvious from the figures is the gradual improvement in gross margin over 4-5 years. Rather than drop the system 5 years ago when the GM was around €350/ha he kept at it making improvements each year. I think this is a key point. I think a lot of lads don't have a clear idea of what their system and target market actually are.


  • #433
    pakalasa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,552 ✭✭✭pakalasa


    Every year or so there is an article in the papers that highligths some beef system or another, that's very profitable. Justin McCarthey has had a few of them, Guy up north with AA cows, guy in kilkenny finishing his own char calves. To read them, you would think it was the next best thing.
    Aside from the hard work and ingenuity of the farmer, there is often favorable market conditions, be it cheap calves, cheap ration, good beef prices. I think to look at a system, you have to take an average of profit over 5 years or so, and include all cost, right down to the bottom line. That means all depreciation and maintenance cost for buildings and machinery.


  • #434
    Muckit
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Muckit


    just do it wrote: »
    He refers to rough grazing rather than wet land. I think this is important as the calves-yearlings would potentially suit soft land better than 700kg suckler cows. That's assuming the land can grow quality grass.

    What is obvious from the figures is the gradual improvement in gross margin over 4-5 years. Rather than drop the system 5 years ago when the GM was around €350/ha he kept at it making improvements each year. I think this is a key point. I think a lot of lads don't have a clear idea of what their system and target market actually are.

    This is what I think too. The Weesst has always been touted as the place for suckler cows. They are big animals. I was never as glad to be out of sucklers as last year. I had lighter drystock out in spots that sucklers would have ploughed. I also had cattle out until first week in November, actually two weeks longer than a very good neighbouring dairy farmer.

    I think 'wet' land can be used as an excuse to let it go to rack and ruin and let suckler cows run a muck among the rushes. I was down around Dingle pennisula not so long ago. You would want to see the way dairy lads were farming there. Bordering rough scrub, they had a maze of drains constructed and the green grass they had growing, with the odd patch of rush to confirm they were working heavy soils. Make you think.

    You are right also about sticking to a system. No point throwing in the towel at the first obstacle you meet.


  • #435
    Farmer Pudsey
    Registered Users Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    At present a lot of dairy farmers are putting dairy straws to there cows hence the large amount of fresian calves about. In 3-4 years time this will change as they move to beef straws. However on marginal land the productiopn of forward store should be possible. Biggest issue is the price of calves. There is no point in buying calves at 300/head and trying to make a profit.It should be possible to be able to produce a 450+kgs store at 18 months from marginal land or a 500+ at 24 months

    It will require however good calf management skills the quality and thrive of a calf is decided in the first weeks of life any setback will reduce his potential. The other issue is will finishers and factories be willing to allow these producers make money idealy you would need an active export market as well


  • #436
    bob charles
    Registered Users Posts: 6,343 ✭✭✭bob charles


    Dozer1 wrote: »
    presume this is the artical, alot of profit is added when you have their land type though

    http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/move-over-suckling-and-make-way-for-new-look-calftobeef-29138335.html

    "grazing costs are 30c a day to produce 1.3kgs of liveweight"

    yeah:rolleyes:

    unless they have changed the laws of Physics since I was in school, they are getting more energy out, than what they put in


  • #437
    freedominacup
    Registered Users Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    bob charles wrote: »
    "grazing costs are 30c a day to produce 1.3kgs of liveweight"

    yeah:rolleyes:

    unless they have changed the laws of Physics since I was in school, they are getting more energy out, than what they put in

    Ahem....



    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSIcaaEnSMBRjNnCp_Ylccs4TDcbm17h6wK_y1_TqYm3HFHehY9


  • #438
    1chippy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,716 ✭✭✭1chippy


    reilig wrote: »
    No doubt it was on some of the best land in the country with 10 week winters, calves knee deep in grass for 9 months of the year etc. ?

    I suppose don't knock it till you try it.
    Would it suit many part-timers to have to mix up milk morning and evening?
    It kinda brings you back to work load of the dairy farmer - twice a day for several months of the year. The day of going away with the wife and kids for a night would be lost. At least with a suckler you only have to be around when she's calving - which is quite often at night![/QUOTE

    I would have said it was pure hardship too, but that was up until last year, i ran abatch of limo heifer calves and ended up having to take some of the friesian bulls off the farmers too to keep them happy.
    I was buying around 3-4 weeks old. then having to feed on for at least another 4 weeks. Things were a bit staggered and a bit chaotic with feeding watching them ect. But the end result is i have 14 good lumps of stores that didnt break the bank, which in my own mind were a trouble when buying the limo heifers. not great for farm snobbery but still something to sell with a bit of a turn.
    This year i decided to do the same only i bought in marts and a few farmers calves a couple of weeks older but still around the same money. i still check all the cattle morning and evening and its not hard to warm a bit of water while im checking through the cows, I have gathered an even bunch of 10 and the feeding will only be for a few minutes for a couple of weeks and they will be as easy looked after as most stores. There isnt that much hardship with them and in my eyes it is a lot easier to make a couple of hundred clear with them than having to share the costs of a cow with an average weanling. what i see however is that there is a margin to made at whichever option your at once you push it out to the last.
    Whether that be by having a big no of bucket feds in big even batches or producing top quality weanlings.
    Its those bucket feds that will be paying for the shed that im putting up for the sucklers.
    And i originally didnt even want them round the place.


  • #439
    severeoversteer
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭severeoversteer


    does anybody have proof that cattle thrive better indoors on a straw bed or rubber mats as opposed to on concrete slats?
    i buy in weanlings and finish at 20- 25 months and i have yet to see animals gaining more than 0.5 kg per day indoors on slats. i'm feeding them to their appetite and calculating diet requirements based on weight age , finishing weight breed etc. i weigh regularly about every 2 months and have good continental stores. no problems with lameness also.

    it mightnt pay to change housing to include straw bed area but im keen to know anyones experiences.

    housing period is so long that i would like to keep them moving if you know what i mean ;)


  • #440
    Juniorhurler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭Juniorhurler


    The boss was at that walk. He said that they are on over 300 acres of great land.

    He also said that it is as labour intensive a system as he has ever saw on a beef farm.
    He said they must be picking their calves from selected farmers and a base of sellers built up over time as there was not one Holstein type among the 80 calves he saw.

    Hard to know, but as a part timer I don't think I will go this road. All I know is I played a bit of football against Tom English and the workload has aged him ten years in the last three.


  • #441
    pakalasa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,552 ✭✭✭pakalasa


    Juniorhurler wrote: »
    ..
    He said they must be picking their calves from selected farmers and a base of sellers built up over time as there was not one Holstein type among the 80 calves he saw....
    I read the article in the Journal. Any idea how these bulls were grading in the factory. Like your Dad said there is probably a lot of British Friesan blood in them. We finished British Friesn bullocks years ago. Out of 30 or so, we would have only 1 or 2 grading 'O'. Everything else would be an 'R'. We were hand picking them in marts. As the years went on, it was next to inpossible to get them, with the Holstien influence taking over.


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  • #442
    Farmer Pudsey
    Registered Users Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    pakalasa wrote: »
    I read the article in the Journal. Any idea how these bulls were grading in the factory. Like your Dad said there is probably a lot of British Friesan blood in them. We finished British Friesn bullocks years ago. Out of 30 or so, we would have only 1 or 2 grading 'O'. Everything else would be an 'R'. We were hand picking them in marts. As the years went on, it was next to inpossible to get them, with the Holstien influence taking over.

    Grading is a lot tougher that 5-6 years ago, I think when mechanical grading came in that they made the grading harder. It is hard to get Angus and Herefords garde ''R'' not to mind Fresians. Fat score is harder as well you need a lot of cover on fresians to grade fat score ''3''.

    fresians bulls find it hard to score above ''O''+ unless they carry a lot of weight which the factories do not want . I would imagine that these 18-20 month bulls would grade O+ with a sprinkling of R's if they were good quality british Fresians.


  • #443
    just do it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,422 ✭✭✭just do it


    Anyone done their profit monitor yet? Had made a start at it about 6wks ago but then got sidetracked. We were due to have it handed in at month end but tonight we were asked to have it for the next meeting on April 23rd. A few weeks reprieve before the bad news:rolleyes:


  • #444
    1chippy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,716 ✭✭✭1chippy


    just do it wrote: »
    Anyone done their profit monitor yet? Had made a start at it about 6wks ago but then got sidetracked. We were due to have it handed in at month end but tonight we were asked to have it for the next meeting on April 23rd. A few weeks reprieve before the bad news:rolleyes:
    done for last year and with some very shocking results. Doing a detailed breakdown week by week at the moment and even sticking in those 10 and 20 euro cash expenditures that usually get forgotten about.nobody really owned up to what was their profit monitors which i thought could help and identify where things could be changed. i put myself on the line but i dont know whether lads were shy or afraid of offending me but i got no suggestions.


  • #445
    just do it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,422 ✭✭✭just do it


    1chippy wrote: »
    sticking in those 10 and 20 euro cash expenditures that usually get forgotten about.

    Yeah I think you're right, you could make over a 100 of those in a year without realising it!


  • #446
    leg wax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭leg wax


    did mine for 2011 and 2012, group was here in feb and put up my figures against the top herd, mine was 480 gainst 1015 , my figures for 2012 have gone up to 680 ,i think its very poor of farmers not showing their results as we still cannot learn anything, and as a result the last meeting i was thinking of walking out as i seemed to be the only fool at it who was not afraid to put the results out there to be discussed.anyone see the way the profit monitor has changed the figuers on the bar graph page , they have moved out our income ranges from 1100 out now to 1400 but my very big gripe is that they did not move out the costings as well, so i got on to the teag man about it and asked him with his fert plan for this farm and the costs that i should be spending on fert i would have to be buying fert at 230 a ton.his answer dont worry about them ranges,are you going to change them ,no. so when you look at all my costs the little star is in the red and at a quick glance ,this farm can save a lot of more money when in fact it cant if they put in the correct ranges.


  • #447
    Toplink
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Toplink


    Hi Folks, sorry if this has been posted already but is the profit monitor spreadsheet available on line? My Dad isn't part of the beef discussion group but I would be interested in doing this anyway.

    Thanks in Advance


  • #448
    reilig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    Toplink wrote: »
    Hi Folks, sorry if this has been posted already but is the profit monitor spreadsheet available on line? My Dad isn't part of the beef discussion group but I would be interested in doing this anyway.

    Thanks in Advance

    He can do it on ICBF.ie


  • #449
    hugo29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,267 ✭✭✭hugo29


    reilig wrote: »
    He can do it on ICBF.ie

    didnt even know this thread existed, fcuk it sure i have missed a good bit, on the last subject the profit monitor and meetings, has everyone else BTAP meetings recommenced then, we still have not and no word of profit monitor yet


  • #450
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,615 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    leg wax wrote: »
    did mine for 2011 and 2012, group was here in feb and put up my figures against the top herd, mine was 480 gainst 1015 , my figures for 2012 have gone up to 680 ,i think its very poor of farmers not showing their results as we still cannot learn anything, and as a result the last meeting i was thinking of walking out as i seemed to be the only fool at it who was not afraid to put the results out there to be discussed.anyone see the way the profit monitor has changed the figuers on the bar graph page , they have moved out our income ranges from 1100 out now to 1400 but my very big gripe is that they did not move out the costings as well, so i got on to the teag man about it and asked him with his fert plan for this farm and the costs that i should be spending on fert i would have to be buying fert at 230 a ton.his answer dont worry about them ranges,are you going to change them ,no. so when you look at all my costs the little star is in the red and at a quick glance ,this farm can save a lot of more money when in fact it cant if they put in the correct ranges.

    Hi legs, fair play to ya for increasing the margin by 200 yoyo in a tough year, I think you are selling them all at weanling stage?

    But I don't get what you are on about with the big gripe? Have they set target ranges for the costs or what? Also if you are doing reseeding or if P and K levels have dropped fert costs are going to be a lot higher.

    Still haven't got my results here yet, but keeping a jeep on the road is something that will have to be looked at, fcukin diesel costs are alarming.

    I reckon you'll have no problem getting rid of that pit of silage you were saving:p

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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  • #451
    reilig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    hugo29 wrote: »
    didnt even know this thread existed, fcuk it sure i have missed a good bit, on the last subject the profit monitor and meetings, has everyone else BTAP meetings recommenced then, we still have not and no word of profit monitor yet

    yea, we have had 2 meetings in 2013. Another one coming up before mid april.


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