FAS Work Placement Program

MaceFace · 15-03-2010 9:36am

danman wrote: »

I don't know what your getting worked up about OP.

I worked on a similar scheme at the start of the '90's.
I worked for a company for 12 months.

The experience I gains has stood me well for the past 20 years in full time employment.
I was able to use the experience I gained to move on to a better position, and I've never regreted doing it.

If you apply for a job, not having any relevant experience, do you expect an employer to be excited about the prospect of employing you?
Should they be priviliged to have such a worthy candidate?

No, I would not expect an employer to hire me if I had no relevant experience.

danman wrote: »

Or maybe they will just be realistic and give the job to a candidate that got off their arse and made an effert to gain experience in the workplace.

If an employer really is not contributing one penny to an employee and that employee would be financially better off sitting at home, then what confidence does the employer have that the person will continue to come to work?

danman wrote: »

As a previous poster said, the Celtic Tiger breed a new type of undergraduate.
They expect a job to fall into their laps.

Time for a reality check OP.

You get nothing in this life for nothing. It takes hard work, effort and sacrifice.

Get yourself on one of these schemes and start being proactive instead of coming onto a forum and complaining about "Slave Labour"

Well, according to this scheme, employers get an employee working for them for nothing.

And besides, I was around before the Celtic Tiger and I don't agree with the idea of an employer getting a person to work for them for free.

I really don't like the whole "Celtic Tiger generation" argument because it is generally spewed out by people who use it to benefit themselves (there was Bill Cullen complaining that the Celtic Tiger generation wanted the government to provide jobs for them but somehow didn't see any problem with him wanting the government to provide a bailout for his company).

If an employer needs to rely on free labour, they seriously need to look again at their business.

danman · 15-03-2010 11:05am

I truely do feel sorry for you Maceface, if this is the attitude you want to take.

Any employer should be grateful to have an employee with your attitude.
I really cannot understand why they haven't snapped you up already.

God help Ireland, if all employers continue to act like this.
Imagine, wanting employees that that are self motivated rather than
ones that think they deserve employment handed to them.

To be honest, if I was an employer, I'd use a similar scheme as you gave above to weed out those that are not motivated and welcome those that are making an effort.

Did you read the requirement? A graduate? For working on tills?

Why do you think they might need a graduate to work on tills?

Don't bother answering with a slave labour post, because if you don't see what's infront of your eyes, you will notget employment untill another boom occurs and jobs are simply handed out.

Forgive me if I seem harsh, but somtimes reality checks are needed in this life.

MonkeyBone · 15-03-2010 2:12pm

I have read all the posts here and everyone has a valid point. With regards to ThomasCreeby's original post I can sincerely empathize. I have spent the last 6 years working hard in college and I have gained a lot of work experience during that time. I am 25, I was abroad in Manchester working and came back to Ireland after a bereavement in my family and decided to stay. I spent 6 months trying to find a job and finally went to FAS to get some help. They were useless to say the least and I eventually did a work placement programme that had me working like a slave, taking crap and not getting paid for it. This was a very reputable company but as they were seen as doing me a favour in giving me work experience they clearly abused their position.

Now I am at a consultant level with regards to my education and I got job offers in the UK and I took the one in Manchester but this country is gone to hell at the moment. The WPP1 is a a flawed system. I have seen two graduate programmes pulled and now the jobs they were offering are on the IBEC gradlink site looking for graduates to work for nothing for 12 months. I had made significant progress in these interviews and then they pull them to make use of the Governments genius idea of a Work Placement Programme that has graduates working for nothing. I understand ei.sdraob point of view but this is a ridiculous situation that FAS seem to think is a great idea.

I am sorry this post is so long but if I may make one more point. When I went to FAS and spoke to the work placement officer, she recommended these WPP1 programmes and seemed to think that it would solve all our (graduates) problems. When I pointed out to her that new graduates would be coming out in the tens of thousands this year she seemed to lose her mert. Graduates from last year will be competing with new graduates in a time when there is no jobs. I just think is is ridiculous that we will be competing over jobs that do not pay. It isn't just ironic, it's tragic and that sums up this country at the moment ( and for the next 3 years at least)!

dogbert27 · 15-03-2010 4:29pm

MonkeyBone wrote: »

Graduates from last year will be competing with new graduates in a time when there is no jobs. I just think is is ridiculous that we will be competing over jobs that do not pay. It isn't just ironic, it's tragic and that sums up this country at the moment ( and for the next 3 years at least)!

I think this is the reason Eddie Hobbs advises all new graduates to emigrate to Canada or Australia.

15-03-2010 5:08pm

ThomasCreeby wrote: »

In a time of deep recession I am absolutely baffled how the government can sponsor a program where by companies are paid to take on new staff, who can then work for said companies for periods of up to 12 months while receiving only their dole as compensation for working the guts of a 40 hour week.

Awful lot of FUD there. Companies are not paid to take on staff. The period of employment is 9 months, not 12. And the dole is not their only compensation, they also get invaluable experience

cAr0l wrote: »

It is basically a scheme that allows the government to say that the live register has fallen by whatever amount in an attempt to make themselves look better.

No it's not, for one very simple reason: Participants are still on the live register.

Deleted User wrote: »

In order to be eligible, don't the companies need to have X amount of employees and not have had any redundancies in the last x amount of months? (Not sure of the numbers?)

Doesn't sound like the kind of program intended to help small businesses in the first place.

The number of placements a company can offer are restricted to 10% (rounded up) of their total wokforce, to a maximum of 25 placements. There are a couple of other conditions, designed to prevent companies replacing existing employees with WPP participants:

The business currently has no vacancies in the area of activity in which the placement is offered
The placement will not be provided to displace an existing employee
i)The business has not made any person redundant in the last three months OR ii) There have been redundancies in the last three months but there has been no direct displacement of an employee, and the level of redundancies in the last three months is less than 5% of the workforce.

I fail to see why people have a problem with positions being offered that will give no useful experience. Can someone tell me why a participant would work as a shop assistant for free? What would be the point? The participant has nothing to gain from doing it, and it's completely their choice, so why would they do it? For jobs that actually offer experience, the company is essentially paying you with experience, which to a graduate (especially in this economy) is worth a huge amount

danman · 15-03-2010 5:23pm

Good employment experience is priceless.

If anyone doesn't think so.....
Good luck with your careers.

WalterMitty · 15-03-2010 5:42pm

a lot of the work is basic admin stuff. You'd be getting a yearly figure of around 10k from social welfare for doing that while low level clerical workers in public sector doing same /similar work are striking over getting 30+k for them job. They should be gratefull for their jobs. Always happens in reccesions, those with jobs try to keep as much of their pay and conditions as possible even though highly qualified people are sitting on the dole and willing to do the highly paid jobs of those in emplyment, and in particular public sector emplyment.

RichardAnd · 18-03-2010 3:04pm

Doing an un-paid internship is a well established path to a better life and has been for years in the united states. However, the WPP is a typically short sighed effort from the Irish government that was probably spawned in an effort to win votes by attempting to do something to get people into work.

The problem with it is that it gives employers an opportunity to hire people for free. So, let's say a company needs an accountant, well why not get one from the WPP and avoid forking out a salary. Some employers have the honesty not to do this but, sadly, this is Ireland and something like the WPP is just going to be abused, which it already is. In effect, the WPP will stop jobs being created as what would have been a paying job instead becomes a FAS WPP placement.

Now I'll be the first to say this, most graduates know absolutely nothing about what they have a degree in and really, they need experience. But it's not them I worry for, it's guys who have lost their jobs who now can't find another. This recession is nothing compared to what our grandparents went through but a man with two kids, no job and a Celtic Tiger mortgage to pay is still in big trouble.

In other nations, offering unpaid work is illegal but for a few exceptions. However, this is Ireland after all and forethought seems to be just another of those things we traded for the blight that was the boom.

18-03-2010 3:36pm

RichardAnd wrote: »

The problem with it is that it gives employers an opportunity to hire people for free. So, let's say a company needs an accountant, well why not get one from the WPP and avoid forking out a salary.

How is that different to internships in other countries? They won't get an accountant, they'll get a graduate who needs to be trained

MonkeyBone · 18-03-2010 3:51pm

RichardAnd wrote: »

Doing an un-paid internship is a well established path to a better life and has been for years in the united states. However, the WPP is a typically short sighed effort from the Irish government that was probably spawned in an effort to win votes by attempting to do something to get people into work.

The problem with it is that it gives employers an opportunity to hire people for free. So, let's say a company needs an accountant, well why not get one from the WPP and avoid forking out a salary. Some employers have the honesty not to do this but, sadly, this is Ireland and something like the WPP is just going to be abused, which it already is. In effect, the WPP will stop jobs being created as what would have been a paying job instead becomes a FAS WPP placement.

Now I'll be the first to say this, most graduates know absolutely nothing about what they have a degree in and really, they need experience. But it's not them I worry for, it's guys who have lost their jobs who now can't find another. This recession is nothing compared to what our grandparents went through but a man with two kids, no job and a Celtic Tiger mortgage to pay is still in big trouble.

In other nations, offering unpaid work is illegal but for a few exceptions. However, this is Ireland after all and forethought seems to be just another of those things we traded for the blight that was the boom.

Words of pure wisdom for sure! I fall under the catagory of a recent graduate (2009) and when I started I quickly learned that I didn't know much. I worked very hard during my WPP1 to be a productive member of the company and spent many a late night studying new technologies, coming in extra early and staying late. I viewed it as the best opportunity for me during a recession. The generic paragraph reference I received was a kick in the teeth though. Having said that , I don't have the stress of a mortage but the burden of a far smaller student loan to deal with, which is minor in comparison. All I really had to manage is my rent and the travel expenses which lefts me with very little from the job seekers allowance. I am quite annoyed by the government and these programmes run by FAS. I see so many people I know struggling to find a job or leaving the country and I just wish things would get better. My whinging pales in comparison and puts things into perspective when I think of what thousands of others have to deal with.

Having said that, my opinion of the WPP1 will not change and I think it is a shabbles at the moment.

18-03-2010 4:18pm

MonkeyBone wrote: »

Having said that, my opinion of the WPP1 will not change and I think it is a shabbles at the moment.

Why? You said yourself that you learned a lot while doing it, and you now have an extra position on your CV. 'Generic' references are very common from many companies across all industries. It's up to you to explain to a new company what you did and learned in your placemen, not your former company

MonkeyBone · 18-03-2010 5:03pm

28064212 wrote: »

Why? You said yourself that you learned a lot while doing it, and you now have an extra position on your CV. 'Generic' references are very common from many companies across all industries. It's up to you to explain to a new company what you did and learned in your placemen, not your former company

A valid point, however in a previous post on this thread I explained why. But thank you for pointing that out. Ever since joining boards.ie I am getting a better sense of perspective to my current situation as a graduate.

RichardAnd · 18-03-2010 6:11pm

28064212 wrote: »

How is that different to internships in other countries? They won't get an accountant, they'll get a graduate who needs to be trained

What I said there was a bit misleading. What I meant to get across was that a company who had a job for an accountant that would have put another person in work and have them paying tax would instead be lost because the said company can get someone for free from FAS. This, of course, keeps another person on the dole for another 6-12 months.

18-03-2010 6:35pm

RichardAnd wrote: »

What I said there was a bit misleading. What I meant to get across was that a company who had a job for an accountant that would have put another person in work and have them paying tax would instead be lost because the said company can get someone for free from FAS. This, of course, keeps another person on the dole for another 6-12 months.

Yes, but the person on the WPP gets the experience, thereby helping them. The company is cutting corners by getting a completely untrained graduate. There's no guarantee they would have hired an experienced accountant if they didn't have the WPP option. I very much doubt there are companies out there who think "We need to hire an accountant for this position... actually, lets just get someone with no experience instead, they can handle it just as well"

RichardAnd · 18-03-2010 7:52pm

28064212 wrote: »

Yes, but the person on the WPP gets the experience, thereby helping them. The company is cutting corners by getting a completely untrained graduate. There's no guarantee they would have hired an experienced accountant if they didn't have the WPP option. I very much doubt there are companies out there who think "We need to hire an accountant for this position... actually, lets just get someone with no experience instead, they can handle it just as well"

Yes, if they need an accountant but I was using that simply as an example, albeit, not a very good one. What I mean is that a company that can afford to hire someone and pay them will not because FAS have created a loophole where a company can fill a job and save themselves some money.

Granted, for "skilled jobs", this is less likely but the fact is, this WPP has created a means to facilitate this kind of dishonest behaviour. Experience is all well and good but the fundamental fact of life is that we don't work for the sake of it; we work so that we may live and get through life easier than would otherwise be possible.

I just can't see the WPP being helpful in the long run. There may be good stories to come out of it but as someone else in this thread has already pointed out, paying jobs were removed and replaced with WPP offers. The fact that this is state endorsed is, to me, simply indicative of a much larger problem.

Floppybits · 19-03-2010 1:52pm

This WPP scheme is nothing new. The same scheme existed in 1995. I did a face course probably around 94 and did 2 months work experience as part of the course in France. I guess I was lucky with that course. When I came back I got a job with a good wage doing data entry for a company, however it wasnt what I wanted to do. I got a call from Fas saying that there was a company where I could do kind of what I wanted but I would only get the Fas wage in that job. I took it much to the annoyance of my parents because I was looking at nearly a €200 drop in wages. I spent 9 months in that job and I have not looked back since.

So folks this is nothing new, sometimes you have to take a step back to go forwards as they say. Before you ask I was 23 at the time so I see nothing wrong with this scheme. Yes some employers are going to abuse it but it is up to people who get on it to make the most of it and to keep their eyes and ears open for other job opertunities. Which would you rather say going into and interview, if the interviewee asks you what have you been doing since you last job, Answer A: Ive been on the dole or Answer B, well I was on WPP scheme with company x, too keep my skills up to date and to gain work experience.

I know which I would rather say. I think some people need to take their noses out of the air and stop expecting to get the big job with the big wage, the thing is that you have to work now for a job and if that means going out on a WPP scheme then do it. I will work for you in the long run.

billybigunz · 19-03-2010 10:22pm

I have to argue against the fallacy that using this scheme for experience will make it somebody more likely to gain employment.

The every xistance of this scheme and the willingness of people to get experience is removing jobs from the country. Jobs that could easily be funded by companies at graduate level are now being replaced with WPP schemes. This is causing unemployment and whilst a person might think they are more unemployable with their experience, the reality is that because of their work placement they are actually less likely to get a job in this country.

The recession is bad enough for jobs but this is making things hugely worse as it is undermining the whole concept of paid employment. Please don't be selfish and do not participate in a wpp.

stepbar · 19-03-2010 11:49pm

It's a bit of a joke of a program. I recently seen a local supermarket advertising for people to stack shelves. I really don't think that was the idea in mind when the Government devised the program.

97i9y3941 · 20-03-2010 12:03am

its an sham and a legit way of exploiting workers,i couldn't give two hoots if a person is gaining experience,its just a legit way of avoiding to pay wages,the b#stard who thought of this program should be shot..

donkey balls · 20-03-2010 12:14am

go to the FAS website and click on clerical jobs every 2nd one seems to be a wpp scheme, i reported certain jobs adverts to FAS and they took them down only for the job to appear again a few weeks later:rolleyes:

calamity cockup has a lot to answer for then again i dont think she has ever had a job outside the Dail.

danman · 20-03-2010 12:50am

Fred83 wrote: »

its an sham and a legit way of exploiting workers,i couldn't give two hoots if a person is gaining experience,its just a legit way of avoiding to pay wages,the b#stard who thought of this program should be shot..

would that not be a little extreme?:eek:

billybigunz · 20-03-2010 12:53am

danman wrote: »

would that not be a little extreme?:eek:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1258841/North-Korean-Pak-Nam-Ki-executed-ruining-countrys-financial-affairs.html

97i9y3941 · 20-03-2010 12:54am

no because im pissed off with all these hare brain schemes they have,back in the 80s fas was set up to get people off the dole so it looked like less people on the "dole" on paper,same with this back to education allowance,yes its great for genuine people who want to get back and learn but some only only use it to improve their social life,i think this is where all the problem started,just a botch job and quick fix rubbish,i nearly think if we didn't had this stupid celtic tiger sh#te and spent the money on upgrading our backwards broadband system it might had rewarded us in long term..

billybigunz · 20-03-2010 12:59am

Fred83 wrote: »

no because im pissed off with all these hare brain schemes they have,back in the 80s fas was set up to get people off the dole so it looked like less people on the "dole" on paper,same with this back to education allowance,yes its great for genuine people who want to get back and learn but some only only use it to improve their social life,i think this is where all the problem started,just a botch job and quick fix rubbish,i nearly think if we didn't had this stupid celtic tiger sh#te and spent the money on upgrading our backwards broadband system it might had rewarded us in long term..

I like your thinking.

Things like FAS are just political lip service to a problem. The BTEA has had a negative effect on our economy. I know of a generation of people who pissed about in college for a few years, left without graduating, did Australia, came back and then spent a year or two on the dole partying away. Then the BTEA so they can do college with a bit of money in their pocket and finish up at the age of 30.

__________ · 21-03-2010 4:54am

Floppybits wrote: »

This WPP scheme is nothing new. The same scheme existed in 1995. I did a face course probably around 94 and did 2 months work experience as part of the course in France. I guess I was lucky with that course. When I came back I got a job with a good wage doing data entry for a company, however it wasnt what I wanted to do. I got a call from Fas saying that there was a company where I could do kind of what I wanted but I would only get the Fas wage in that job. I took it much to the annoyance of my parents because I was looking at nearly a €200 drop in wages. I spent 9 months in that job and I have not looked back since.

So folks this is nothing new, sometimes you have to take a step back to go forwards as they say. Before you ask I was 23 at the time so I see nothing wrong with this scheme. Yes some employers are going to abuse it but it is up to people who get on it to make the most of it and to keep their eyes and ears open for other job opertunities. Which would you rather say going into and interview, if the interviewee asks you what have you been doing since you last job, Answer A: Ive been on the dole or Answer B, well I was on WPP scheme with company x, too keep my skills up to date and to gain work experience.

I know which I would rather say. I think some people need to take their noses out of the air and stop expecting to get the big job with the big wage, the thing is that you have to work now for a job and if that means going out on a WPP scheme then do it. I will work for you in the long run.

The very fact someone participates in a wpp scheme means the chances of getting an interview for a "paid job", or of that even existing is much smaller.

There is a fella in my job who started in January on this scheme and my boss has told him there will more than likely be no job there at the end of his 9 month placement but he's pushing on to gain "experience", despite already having 1 years post-grad experience.

danman · 21-03-2010 10:40am

__________ wrote: »

The very fact someone participates in a wpp scheme means the chances of getting an interview for a "paid job", or of that even existing is much smaller.

There is a fella in my job who started in January on this scheme and my boss has told him there will more than likely be no job there at the end of his 9 month placement but he's pushing on to gain "experience", despite already having 1 years post-grad experience.

I wouldn't say that there are jobs at the end. But that isn't the point.

The lad who works in your place, deserves credit.

I love this Celtic Cub attitude of some posters.
The more people with this attitude, the more jobs for those that deserve them. The ones who got off their arses to gain valuable experience.

If none of you recognise the positives of a Work EXPERIENCE scheme, I wish you luck in the job search.

SkepticOne · 21-03-2010 10:58am

If you were to simply volunteer to work for a local employer while claiming the dole you would be cut off. However if the employer regesters with FAS then it is suddenly it is fine. What is the point of FAS in the equation?

There's nothing wrong with internships or work experience but the scheme realy only makes sense if there's some form of quality control at the FAS end. The only point of FAS in this is if they set a certain standard, eliminating the likes of employers that just want their floors cleaned for nothing.

In the current economic climate, that standard may justifiably be set fairly low however in the example given on this thread (http://jobbank.fas.ie/servlet/Watis?...M_OVERVIEW.HTM) they clearly aren't doing their job.

Taxipete29 · 21-03-2010 11:02am

This thread really highlights the horrible sense of entitlement that Irish graduates have. " Oh but that job was normally done by a graduate". A degree entitles you to nothing.

21-03-2010 11:59am

danman wrote: »

I wouldn't say that there are jobs at the end. But that isn't the point.

The lad who works in your place, deserves credit.

I love this Celtic Cub attitude of some posters.
The more people with this attitude, the more jobs for those that deserve them. The ones who got off their arses to gain valuable experience.

If none of you recognise the positives of a Work EXPERIENCE scheme, I wish you luck in the job search.

get off your high horse, he deserves to be paid, "he deserves credit", that does not pay bills. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to be paid - wanting to be paid is not some "Celtic Cub attitude" :mad:

21-03-2010 12:00pm

Taxipete29 wrote: »

This thread really highlights the horrible sense of entitlement that Irish graduates have. " Oh but that job was normally done by a graduate". A degree entitles you to nothing.

The WPP2 is for non graduates so cut out the rubbish about people having a sense of entitlement. You do work you should be paid.

FAS Work Placement Program

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