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CE Stamping of Structural Steel

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  • 11-07-2014 9:19pm
    #1
    Johnnyhpipe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 748 ✭✭✭


    To all engineers/fabricators/contractors on here:

    You may already be aware that as of 1st July all structural steelwork (among many other elements) is required to be CE marked. I'm a structural engineer and we have been advised by our professional bodies that WE will be in breach of the building regulations if we accept steelwork that has not been marked! The genius part is, our glorious leaders appear to have passed this requirement without much consultation with the industry and as a result there are less than 5 fabricators in the entire country that as yet have the facilities in place to be able to stamp the steelwork as now required...

    As such, I have amended my specification to include this requirement on all new projects...however I would put money on the fact that the next site I walk onto on Monday morning will not have stamped steelwork.

    So..engineers - for what is your approach? Specify the CE mark, the builder will get his steelwork from the local small fabricator (for most small jobs), the steel of course will not be stamped and you will arrive for an inspection once it has been erected..do we now tell the contractor to take the entire thing down? Going strictly by the letter of the law we will have to tell him to take it down and go again.. I can only imagine both the builder and the client jumping up and down cursing the engineer...


«13

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    #2
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Johnnyhpipe wrote: »
    To all engineers/fabricators/contractors on here:

    You may already be aware that as of 1st July all structural steelwork (among many other elements) is required to be CE marked. I'm a structural engineer and we have been advised by our professional bodies that WE will be in breach of the building regulations if we accept steelwork that has not been marked! The genius part is, our glorious leaders appear to have passed this requirement without much consultation with the industry and as a result there are less than 5 fabricators in the entire country that as yet have the facilities in place to be able to stamp the steelwork as now required...

    As such, I have amended my specification to include this requirement on all new projects...however I would put money on the fact that the next site I walk onto on Monday morning will not have stamped steelwork.

    So..engineers - for what is your approach? Specify the CE mark, the builder will get his steelwork from the local small fabricator (for most small jobs), the steel of course will not be stamped and you will arrive for an inspection once it has been erected..do we now tell the contractor to take the entire thing down? Going strictly by the letter of the law we will have to tell him to take it down and go again.. I can only imagine both the builder and the client jumping up and down cursing the engineer...

    Isint this just a follow on from the Construction Productions Regulations introduced on 1st July 2013? We have heard of this coming for a year now.


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    #3
    Johnnyhpipe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 748 ✭✭✭Johnnyhpipe


    kceire wrote: »
    Isint this just a follow on from the Construction Productions Regulations introduced on 1st July 2013? We have heard of this coming for a year now.

    Yes, but I'm told that less than 5 steel fabricators in Ireland are geared up for it...so I can guarantee you the next piece of steelwork I inspect on Monday will not have this mark. The client doesn't know it's required, many small contractors i've spoken to seemingly don't know it's required, but if it's not marked I have to tell them to remove and replace it now.


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    #4
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Johnnyhpipe wrote: »
    Yes, but I'm told that less than 5 steel fabricators in Ireland are geared up for it...so I can guarantee you the next piece of steelwork I inspect on Monday will not have this mark. The client doesn't know it's required, many small contractors i've spoken to seemingly don't know it's required, but if it's not marked I have to tell them to remove and replace it now.

    What does the SI say? Is there an interim period where it's phased in?


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    #5
    Johnnyhpipe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 748 ✭✭✭Johnnyhpipe


    Not that I am aware of. I understand 1st July is (was) the date. But I'm awaiting a reaponse from a few professional bodies on how we're expected to handle this so will let you know.


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    #6
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    As usual with our construction "industry" I am being met with ignorance and incredulity wrt the CE Marking and DoP. Contractors I have been dealing with so far (big names included ) pleading ignorance.


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    #7
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Are you sure the steel itself has to be physically marked ?? As distinct from the scheme being designed in accordance with new regs.

    I mean then where does one get the "stamp" you speak of ??

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #8
    Johnnyhpipe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 748 ✭✭✭Johnnyhpipe


    Yes. Each structural steel member itself must be clearly marked. This might take the form of an embossed stamp/weld/plate - i'm not entirely clear on this as yet, but you should be able to walk onto any site and see this stamp/mark on every element.

    Also, I've since found out there's actually 3 fabricators in the entire country who are geared up for this at the moment.


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    #9
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Johnnyhpipe wrote: »
    Yes. Each structural steel member itself must be clearly marked. This might take the form of an embossed stamp/weld/plate - i'm not entirely clear on this as yet, but you should be able to walk onto any site and see this stamp/mark on every element.

    Also, I've since found out there's actually 3 fabricators in the entire country who are geared up for this at the moment.

    Thanks for that - got a link to the regs handy ??

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #10
    Drift
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Drift


    Is the CE marking we are discussing in this case for the steel as a product or the finished fabricated item?

    If it is for the steel itself, then provided steel members (UB, UC, SHS, CHS) etc. are sourced via reputable supply chain the steel can be stamped at the original milling location. You'd imagine any foundary big enough to be milling these members are big enough to obtain certification and implement a CE marking scheme with a stamp being applied to the web of a beam every X no. of metres. In the same way one sees stamping on cables such as CAT6. I admit there may be difficulties here that I am not seeing and it's definitely not happening yet but a system like that would allow fabrications to be created locally using CE marked steel.

    If the CE marking is for fabricated items (e.g. trusses, portal frames, space frames) then it could be HUGELY problematic for small developments in Ireland where a local fabricator whilst perfectly capable just won't have the scale or "paperwork" ability to acheive CE certification let alone stamp/mark his fabrications accordingly. Of course once you are down this road does said CE certification of a fabricated item then imply correct structural design - in which case every fabricator will have to take complete ownership of structural design and/or provide explicit documentation of load carrying ability with every item they create. - PI insurance then becomes an issue too.

    Not sure if I might have missed a major point here or overlooked something? Let me know what you guys think.

    My understanding of a concrete analagy is as follows:
    A cast in-situ concrete beam, for example, would not, in my understanding, have to be CE certified, however the components (concrete and steel reinforcement) each would have to be CE certified. Is it the same with steel components vs a steel truss? However on the flip side a precast concrete lintel should be CE certified as should it's components!!!


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    #11
    Johnnyhpipe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 748 ✭✭✭Johnnyhpipe


    Cant link it here...but google ce marking of structural steel and look at the pdf link on engineers ireland site:

    Check out p15-16. As of 1/7/14 it is now a legal requirement for all fabricated structural steel delivered to site to be marked....but 3 guys in the country have facility to do this. (Only 2 guys at the time of publication noted on p28-29!)


    I also have some documents from ACEI and EI, but can't link them here. They do however give a comprehensive list of what does and does not need to be stamped. However its pretty much all structural sections. Great idea, and I welcome it, but dont tell me, that I (as the specifying design engineer!!!) am in breach of the building regs if i accept steel from 72 out of Irelands 75 steel fabricators because someone else hasn't gotten the finger out on time!


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    #12
    Drift
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Drift


    Refers to BS EN 1090 but is relevant in the Irish context too:
    The harmonised standard covering fabricated structural steelwork is BS EN 1090: Execution of steel structures and aluminium structures.

    Part 1[8] of the standard is the Requirements for Conformity Assessment of Structural Components. It describes how manufacturers can demonstrate that the components they produce meet the declared performance characteristics (the structural characteristics which make them fit for their particular use and function).

    Part 2[9] is the Technical Requirements for Steel Structures. It specifies the requirements for the execution of steel structures to ensure adequate levels of mechanical resistance and stability, serviceability and durability. It determines the performance characteristics for components that the manufacturer must achieve and declare through the requirements of Part 1[8].

    BS EN 1090-1[8] becomes mandatory on 1 July 2014. It will therefore be a legal requirement for all fabricated structural steelwork delivered to site from that date to be CE Marked.

    Fairly onerous stuff!

    Do we have to move away from steel elements on small projects now? It appears if a fabricator even attaches an end plate to a steel beam they need to be CE certified and stamp the product.


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    #13
    agrostar
    Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭agrostar


    Does anyone have anymore information on what is required for the certification of structural steelwork. We operate a small fabricators workshop ourselves manufacturing and erecting mostly farm buildings, which would be put into the least stringent category but information on what we are supposed to do to comply is as scarce as hell. Atleast if only a hand few of fabricators in the country are compliant we definitely aren't the only ones.


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    #14
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    agrostar wrote: »
    Does anyone have anymore information on what is required for the certification of structural steelwork. We operate a small fabricators workshop ourselves manufacturing and erecting mostly farm buildings, which would be put into the least stringent category but information on what we are supposed to do to comply is as scarce as hell. Atleast if only a hand few of fabricators in the country are compliant we definitely aren't the only ones.

    I've been doing some work on this lately and broke it down to the following components:

    1. Design - to use a scheme suitably designed by an SE to latest codes with appropriate PI.
    2. Materials - as above, buy from a good source with traceable supply.
    3. Welding - to have your welders specifically qualified to the appropriate code (my brother is a PED and welding engineer/inspector to highest codes, for gas & oil - handy to be able to tap his knowledge :pac: ).
    4. Marking - your product must be marked. I haven't been able to get anyone to confirm to what level/material. e.g. stamp, plate, stencil, simple marking etc. Afaik every component, bracket, cleat must be marked.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #15
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Drift wrote: »
    Refers to BS EN 1090 but is relevant in the Irish context too:



    Fairly onerous stuff!

    Do we have to move away from steel elements on small projects now? It appears if a fabricator even attaches an end plate to a steel beam they need to be CE certified and stamp the product.

    You won't be able to move away from steel. Even a piece of steel used, say, in a flitch plate, would need it. There's no shortcut.

    Besides, it's impractical to move away - steel is too useful.

    You're right - just plating the end of a beam will require you to have a welding qualification (specific) to do it.

    SE's aren't going to not-specify steel over this issue.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #16
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    I've heard that in order to be able to CE mark your goods, you must have production line certification. On the sites I'm inspecting at present, not many are meeting this regulation.

    I've heard of one company in Dublin CE stamping the structural steel and ill name them if allowed.


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    #17
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,701 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    kceire wrote: »
    I've heard of one company in Dublin CE stamping the structural steel and ill name them if allowed.

    Maybe PM me first.


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    #18
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    kceire wrote: »
    I've heard that in order to be able to CE mark your goods, you must have production line certification. On the sites I'm inspecting at present, not many are meeting this regulation.

    That's not so. The specific elements I outlined need to by certified/qualified.

    Mind you, we're doing both anyway.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #19
    Drift
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Drift


    I'd be interested to know what Irish Steel Suppliers/Fabricators are CE marking their fabrications.

    If anyone has a list / half list / incomplete list I'd be very thankful for a pm!


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    #20
    con1982
    Registered Users Posts: 515 ✭✭✭con1982


    I was at a British Construction Steelwork Association seminar in March this year. Apparently, even modifying structural sections with bolt holes or welded endplates requires the steel fabricator to CE Mark the entire section. They become the 'fabricator/maufacturer' instead of just the distributer.

    NSSS 5th edition says that every element of steel must be CE Marked, but EN1090-2 says that sections can be CE Marked by batch. In my opinion EN1090 takes precedence over the NSSS.

    The BSCA site lists about 10 fabricators on the island with the necessary certification for Execution Class 2. There may be more that aren't linked to the BSCA.


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    #21
    con1982
    Registered Users Posts: 515 ✭✭✭con1982


    Follow this link and search 'Ireland'

    http://www.steelconstruction.org/directories/buildings.html

    9 fabricators


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    #22
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    How many buildings fall down per year in Ireland because of a failure that would be prevented by CE marking to this degree, I wonder..


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    #23
    con1982
    Registered Users Posts: 515 ✭✭✭con1982


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    How many buildings fall down per year in Ireland because of a failure that would be prevented by CE marking to this degree, I wonder..

    You have to remember that most structures are designed to last 50 years plus. The max design loading may only occur a few times in their life. We have to be certain that the materials used correspond with the design properties. The human and financial cost of a structural collapse is too significant. The main aim of the CE marking for steel is to eliminate substandard materials coming from Asia.


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    #24
    Niall2610
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭Niall2610


    I've worked in welding inspection and ndt inspection for almost twenty years and at the moment the company I work for are organising weld procedures and welder qualification tests for a lot companies as part of their ce approval to comply with the new legislation. There will be a lot of contractors approved by the end of the year but there will be far more out there who are not.
    The lack of communication from the relevant departments has lead to confusion and a lot of misinformation from the outset.
    Many smaller contractors are only hearing about it by word of mouth.
    It still amazes me how many companies out there have been welding and supplying steel without having a single welder qualified to carried out the work.
    Not having certified weld procedures may have been understandable a few years ago due to the less stringent checks made on companies but not having welders qualified is a bit irish.
    Just because a weld looks ok it doesn't mean it is ok especially when dealing with butt welded joints.
    The level of work involved in complying with the legislation is going to cause problems for smaller contractors. There are different execution classes for different sizes of structures and different types of structures. Understanding the execution class which is relevant to your general work will save you a lot of heartache and work by not getting classified to a higher standard than you need.
    The ce marking should be a good thing in the long run for the industry once everyone is onboard as it should create a level playing field for all contractors, but a lot will depend on how well it's policed by the relevant auditors and certification authorities. If things are let slid in a year or two then genuine contractors may get undercut on jobs by the chancers. I can't see things sliding though as I've already heard of companies having contracts cancelled because the didn't have their ce certification.


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    #25
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    I still haven't been able to find out how the steel should be marked, physically.

    Some small pieces can't be plated, so will mechanical stamping do ??

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #26
    Drift
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Drift


    A local small contractor told us this week that it would cost him 25k to get set up to CE Mark his products. He didn't go into detail as to how that breaks down. As far as I am aware some of his welders are already qualified.

    He said he couldn't afford it so he won't be doing it. It meant the he was unable to quote for this project - which was only welding a top plate to a beam.


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    #27
    OlManRiver
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭OlManRiver


    This is a list of BCSA members in Ireland. It is not a list of CE approved steel fabricators. There are at least 4 fabrication companies that I know of that are CE approved but not members of the BCSA


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    #28
    OlManRiver
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭OlManRiver


    I still haven't been able to find out how the steel should be marked, physically.

    Some small pieces can't be plated, so will mechanical stamping do ??[/QUOTE]

    There is no requirement to physically mark each fabricated member. Supporting documentation assembled in a file, similar to an end of project file is sufficient. This compromises of steel certs, weld certs and copies of the fabricators CE accreditation etc


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    #29
    mussha
    Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭mussha


    regards steel fabrication does the CE cert only apply to structural steel or does it apply to general fabrication jobs that would be carried out in workshops?

    It is so hard to find correct info regards all this. any websites anybody could recommend for info would be great.


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    #30
    damgrogan
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭damgrogan


    I run a small fabrication workshop specializing in balustrades for staircases and balconies.
    Can any tell me do these require CE marking and if so to what class..?

    Thanks...


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    #31
    Quazzie
    Registered Users Posts: 28,812 ✭✭✭✭Quazzie


    mussha wrote: »
    regards steel fabrication does the CE cert only apply to structural steel or does it apply to general fabrication jobs that would be carried out in workshops?

    It is so hard to find correct info regards all this. any websites anybody could recommend for info would be great.

    Generally anything that is structural needs CE with varying degrees of execution class.

    The company I work for has been CE compliant for over a year now.


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