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Running Diesel cars on Vegatable Oil?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,260 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    Most Indirect Injection engines can be converted to run on straight vegetable oil or waste vegetable oil provided they have mechanical bosch injector pump. The best conversion is a two tank system where you have a small tank for ordinary diesel for starting up and shutting down. When the engine is up to temperature, coolant from the engine can be used in a heat exchanger to preheat the veg oil to reduce it's viscosity using a 3 way valve to switch the fuel supply to the pump from derv to veg and putting the return straight to the pump. It's probably wise to heat the oil before passing it through the fuel filter, some fuel filters have adhesives that melt at relatively low temperatures so it's probably best to get one designed as a heated filter, these are common on peugeots/citroens and some fiats. Another consideration is your fuel tank, if it has a coating or is paintedon the inside, veg oil may dissolve this causing the filter to clog up quickly, this is a particular problem on rover cars using peugeots 1.8 diesel engine.

    Production of biodiesel is a much more costly and messy. It is also quite wasteful and as such not as environmentally sound as it may seem at first. If efforts were concentrated on designing injector pumps to handle higher viscosity fluids, straight vegetable oil would be the best solution.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭Takeshi_Kovacs


    alias no.9 wrote:

    Production of biodiesel is a much more costly and messy. It is also quite wasteful and as such not as environmentally sound as it may seem at first. If efforts were concentrated on designing injector pumps to handle higher viscosity fluids, straight vegetable oil would be the best solution.

    yes the use of straight veg oil would be the most desirable way to go, but for the millions of older diesels out there, biodiesel is a much better option..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Sarsfield


    There was an interesting article in yesterdays Sunday Business Post on the subject.

    Sunday Business Post Article

    Of particular interest is a proposal to build a biofuel factory in Carlow, using sugar beet as the raw material. In the light of the impending collapse of the sugar industry in Ireland, this should have the attention of the Dept. of Agriculture & IFA.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,260 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    yes the use of straight veg oil would be the most desirable way to go, but for the millions of older diesels out there, biodiesel is a much better option..

    On the contrary, older diesels, particularly indirect injection or swirl chamber type engines, common across all marques up until the late 1990's are ideal for conversion to SVO provided they have bosch injector pumps. DIY conversions are not difficult but off the shelf conversion kits are also available from Elsbett in germany. Newer common rail and pumpe deuse type direct injection diesels are not suited to SVO because they operate at much higher pressures and within much finer tolerances so the high viscosity of veg oil will mean certain death for the injection system.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,905 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    I have just looked into the economics of fitting a Elsbett system and was quoted a figure of €950.00 including postage.
    The payback time based on my current usage and Diesel @ 109cent per litre is about 32 weeks.
    I had a look at the system and it looks as though you get a fairly simple system a heat exchanger, modified injectors and glow plugs and a handful of electrical gubbins, relays etc.
    I may think about doing it myself.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,743 ✭✭✭kleefarr


    trap4 wrote:
    you will be found out, if not here by
    the smell coming from your car's exhaust pipe!

    Anyone know what the exhaust smells like? Just out of interest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 816 ✭✭✭dr strangelove


    smells like chips........ really


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,822 ✭✭✭air


    does anyone know where i can buy Methanol (one of those nasty chemicals) by the 20 litre+ at a reasonable price?
    According to this thread on the biodiesel now forums you can buy it from Corcoran Chemicals in Dublin for €110 + vat per 55 gal. drum (01-6778163).

    This is about 200 litres, so your methanol would be costing you about 66 cents per litre including VAT.
    I have a vague notion that you will need about 1 part methanol for every 5 parts finished biodiesel, so your costs should be about 13.2 cents per litre of finished fuel assuming you can get your oil for nothing (which should be easy enough).

    You will also however have to deal with the disposal of the glycerol generated in the production of the biodiesel.

    With the latest tax breaks then, am I correct in thinking that a home user can just make the fuel and use it away without fear of prosecution or does one need to be registered etc?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,743 ✭✭✭kleefarr


    smells like chips........ really

    Not surprising I suppose! ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,621 ✭✭✭GreenHell


    You make a petrol out of some wheat crop as well. Its being tested over in wexford I believe.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,743 ✭✭✭kleefarr


    Anyone tried potcheen? :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭Takeshi_Kovacs


    air wrote:
    According to this thread on the biodiesel now forums you can buy it from Corcoran Chemicals in Dublin for €110 + vat per 55 gal. drum (01-6778163).

    This is about 200 litres, so your methanol would be costing you about 66 cents per litre including VAT.
    I have a vague notion that you will need about 1 part methanol for every 5 parts finished biodiesel, so your costs should be about 13.2 cents per litre of finished fuel assuming you can get your oil for nothing (which should be easy enough).

    You will also however have to deal with the disposal of the glycerol generated in the production of the biodiesel.

    With the latest tax breaks then, am I correct in thinking that a home user can just make the fuel and use it away without fear of prosecution or does one need to be registered etc?

    thanks for the link, i will check up on this crowd, see what the story is... also find out how much delivery would be, if they deliver..
    on the cost of the finished product, it might be lower.. first off 55 gallons = around 250 L , therefore you are looking at around 53 cent a litre for the methanol (excluding delivery costs e.t.c.)

    Now what you said about the 5:1 ratio of veg oil and meth is correct, in that this is the most widely used ratio because you need an excess of methanol to drive the reaction towards biodiesel and glycerin as the finished product.

    But from what i have read, only 12.5 % methanol is used up in the reaction itself, therefore most homebrewers recover the excess methanol (by distilling) to bring cost down even more .
    Now if you succesfully recover all or most of the meth, then you are looking at ratio of 8:1 (oil to meth).
    Therefore assumin all goes right for ye, and you get reasonably clean chipper oil for free, then you are looking at cost of round 7 to 8 cent a litre of biodiesel, (which to me sounds riduculously low, so feel free to point out any and all mistake with the math)
    Even still, if you had to use virgin oil (at around 62 cent a litre in lidl, aldi ), your finished product would still only cost around 70 cent a litre.

    Note: I am excluding all other costs such as cost of the caustic soda, heating of oil to reaction temp, blue barrels for storing the stuff in e.t.c. (also this also relies on the quote of the meth from corcoran chemicals as being correct) , but still seems a lot cheaper than paying upwards of 1.10 euro and rising, a litre....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Sarsfield wrote:
    Sunday Business Post Article

    Of particular interest is a proposal to build a biofuel factory in Carlow, using sugar beet as the raw material. In the light of the impending collapse of the sugar industry in Ireland, this should have the attention of the Dept. of Agriculture & IFA.

    Its great that the papers read boards.ie for ideas! ;)

    Mike.

    ps my opening line shows just how fast oil prices are moving.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 468 ✭✭trap4


    This discussion has thrown up some excellent information - thanks to all. In an effort to organise it I've setup a Wiki at

    http://fresheir.wikispaces.org/

    and everyone is welcome to contribute. I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel becauser there is already a huge amount of information on the web but I've found nowhere that condenses the information specific to the production of Biodiesel in this country.


    QUESTION
    ========
    Has anyone investigated the sourcing of waste vegetable oil? What are most chippers and restaurants in Ireland currently doing? Are they paying people to dispose of it?




    ~~~~~~~~
    -Jim.
    http://eirepreneur.blogs.com/fresheir/


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭Takeshi_Kovacs


    trap4 wrote:
    This discussion has thrown up some excellent information - thanks to all. In an effort to organise it I've setup a Wiki at

    http://fresheir.wikispaces.org/

    and everyone is welcome to contribute. I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel becauser there is already a huge amount of information on the web but I've found nowhere that condenses the information specific to the production of Biodiesel in this country.


    QUESTION
    ========
    Has anyone investigated the sourcing of waste vegetable oil? What are most chippers and restaurants in Ireland currently doing? Are they paying people to dispose of it?




    ~~~~~~~~
    -Jim.
    http://eirepreneur.blogs.com/fresheir/

    good idea on the wiki

    i'm not sure about all chippers , restaurants, e.t.c., but a good few of them dump it, not sure how or where, i know there is a fella collecting waste oil from restaurants in the mid kerry area alright , but i am not sure what he does with it...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Sarsfield


    mike65 wrote:
    Its great that the papers read boards.ie for ideas! ;)

    T'would be even better if the minister read boards too. This is a populist government (the FF bit anyway). If this thread gets enough posts it might result in a policy ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,822 ✭✭✭air


    I heard on national radio that they were having trouble with a new waste water treatment system in Galway city due to restaurants pouring used oil down the sink.
    The oil was combining with hair and causing serious blockages.

    Also on that science show with Richard Hammond on BBC, he went into the sewers in London one night & there was a massive crust on top of the flow which was basically decaying oil. It causes massive problems for them there too.

    However I have seen waste oil wheelie bins outside some large restaurants etc & I think there are companies that actually filter the oil and return it to restaurants for reuse.

    Incidentially the main feature of the BBC program was how unhealthy partially hydrogenated oils are when used for deep frying. The gist of the episode was that pure plant oils like rapeseed etc are infinitely better for you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,822 ✭✭✭air


    first off 55 gallons = around 250 L
    Google apparently uses US gallons by default in its conversion, 55 Imperial gallons is indeed 250L. I would assume that they would be using imperial measurements.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,389 ✭✭✭✭Saruman


    I saw this on tomorrows world when i was a kid. Back in the early 90's i would say. A guy in britain modified his diesel car to run off oil. He used to go around the chippers and take their waste oil off them, i assume clean it and fill up his tank.

    Only downside was his car smelled like a chipper :D

    Would love to have one.. im sick like everyone else of oil prices and of course the environmental issues that go with fossil fuels.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 52 ✭✭Redneck_Rebel


    kleefarr wrote:
    Anyone tried potcheen? :D

    When I was at silage the boss had "a number" of bottles fcuk me that stuff would give your engine a bit of a kick. I was only sipping it and I could feel it going all the way down.
    On the veg oil, I'd hold off on using that til I see some reliability specs. It could be like using unleaded petrol in leaded engines, fine til you drive on or go long distance. It would be fine to get an old E200 car and run that for year to see what happens. You are talking big money to repair new cars with all the electronics + crap and I don't think when you went to the garage with a claped engine smelling of chips saying I tried to save the envioment they would honer the warrenty.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,822 ✭✭✭air


    Many manufacturer warranties cover usage of biodiesel, modifications for running SVO would be a different story.
    There is plenty of information out there on the relative reliability of converting different makes and models of cars.
    Admittedly it makes most sense with an older car that is out of warranty and which you are less likely to be selling on.

    As for the potcheen, I would imagine that it would be in some way related to bioethanol which runs a few million cars in Brazil afaik.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    what would be the implications of selling biodiesel if you made it from waste oil?

    could you set up a little factory yourself?

    if you started making it on a decent scale, and collecting from all your local oil using places (chippers & resteraunts etc.) i'd say even with collection costs you'd be spending no more than 20c per litre, so selling it at 40c would be a good business. just make sure people know what they are getting and what engines are compatible etc. and maybe even offer them a quick look over by a mechanic and give thema little sticker for the windscreen to say so (with your web address etc. for some free advertising) and off you go.

    a small plot on the edge of dublin (maybe somewhere near the M50) and you're set. people queue up for ages outside tesco in clare hall for cheap fuel, so offering (at least diesel owners anyway) something at half the current prices, i'm sure would do well. get a big billboard up advertising it on one side (facing away from the station) with the other side facing the pumps with a FAQ of what it is and how it works etc.

    i'm not a businessman (obviously) but I'm sure there's plenty money to be made there somewhere.
    [align=right]13.16.137.11[/align]


  • Registered Users Posts: 406 ✭✭Cuauhtemoc


    There was an article about this in the Indo today.
    I think it said that there were some companies being licensed. Didn't say anything about individuals though.
    Undoubtably a "License" will be required if you plan to sell it. Couldn't have the government losing out on fuel revenue now could we.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,909 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    I've heard of people who have converted their cars having problems passing an NCT, what is the situation with this?

    Also does it cause problems getting car insurance?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    could you not just bribe them with a bag of chips? :p

    seriously though, my next car's going to be a big old (cheap) diesel merc or similar (being careful to make sure it's the right model), and I'll be going to a lot more takeaways!
    [align=right]13.16.137.11[/align]


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 52 ✭✭Redneck_Rebel


    air wrote:
    There is plenty of information out there on the relative reliability of converting different makes and models of cars.
    Admittedly it makes most sense with an older car that is out of warranty and which you are less likely to be selling on.

    There is information on alot of things and using the right info you can prove about anything, car manufactures have been doing this for years with MPG figures(has anyone had a car that matched those things). I'm not trying to attack you but I'd just hold off on committing all the diesels in the world to a potentialy short and expensive life.
    Do you rember when Diesels were a slow and dirty engine(the difference in the amount of callories in deisel and oil is small but it is there). Well I thing that they will go back to that again for a while with this fuel. After the manufactures have a no. of years to work on the new fuel it would be well worth the added effort in getting it.
    It would be a bit strange going to a chipper and asking for a bag of chips and a fill of fuel, but if its cheap!!!! :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭Takeshi_Kovacs


    iguana wrote:
    I've heard of people who have converted their cars having problems passing an NCT, what is the situation with this?

    Also does it cause problems getting car insurance?

    well there is plenty of evidence of how veg oil or biodiesel very significantly reduces emissions compared with dino diesel
    Try http://www.veggievan.org/biodiesel/articles/emissions.php or http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel.html for some info on biodiesel emissions info..

    Talking about the NCT, i heard recently of a lad who was using veg oil in his car, and when he went for the NCT , they found practically zero emissions, and did the test a few times over, yet still could not figure why, so they asked yer man, but he only gave them a smile, and left with his car fully NCT'ed..


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2 ROMAX


    Hi guys,

    I just got a copy of this e-book on making your own biodiesel check it out.

    www.electricitybook.com/bio0113003


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭Takeshi_Kovacs


    just another plus for biodiesel... i came across this article, which says that even a nontoxic antifreeze ,proplyene glycol (as opposed to that nasty stuff called ethylene glycol) can be produced from the glycerin which is produced as a waste during the biodiesel reaction
    http://munews.missouri.edu/NewsBureauSingleNews.cfm?newsid=5963

    also some good biodiesel sites..
    http://forums.biodieselnow.com/default.asp
    http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums
    http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_mike.html

    build your own reactor.. --> http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/appleseedprocessor/
    http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor10.html


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  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Mucco


    If you're messing around with large quantities of methanol, be careful guys, it's toxic. The glycerol isn't too bad though.

    M


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