Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Government agreement: Free-To-Air RTE in NI, BBC in RoI on DTT platform

1568101114

Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,263 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I agree it was the commercial operators that tried to pull the FTA Beeb proposal, but it was very shortsighted. Would the presence of the Beeb FTA on DTT really cause enough subscribers not to subscribe to the usual suspects? If that was so, then Freesat would have replaced $ky by now. A few quid once-off would get you a freesat box which is connected up instead of the $ky box, and it all free from then on. Why has there not been a wholesale migration from $ky? I suspect that when you have 30 or so channels, it is hard to go back to four, and when you have had 300, it is hard to go back to 30.

    The Beeb FTA would persuade many 4 (or 3) Channel land to get a DTT STB when they become available, but not current subscibers getting 30 or more channels. A few may ditch their subsciptions for Onevision, but not for just the DTT FTA offering on the public mux. It was complete folly for them to act so hastily, as Onevision will now have to pay for the Beeb which would have been free otherwise. Stupid and shortsighted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭Martin_F


    It was complete folly for them to act so hastily, as Onevision will now have to pay for the Beeb which would have been free otherwise. Stupid and shortsighted.

    I thought so too. BBC 1 & 2 free on DTT - should have allowed the Onevision basic subscription to be reduced (since only paying for UTV/C4/Five etc) - thus helping to undercut or match Sky/UPC prices.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,744 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    Martin_F wrote: »
    I thought so too. BBC 1 & 2 free on DTT - should have allowed the Onevision basic subscription to be reduced (since only paying for UTV/C4/Five etc) - thus helping to undercut or match Sky/UPC prices.

    Most of the countries that initially introduced a primary commercial element to their DTT strategy ended up with failure of the pay platform and revertion to a primary FTA platform.
    If the BCI proposed a primary FTA platform 10 years ago we would have been up and running almost immediately with possibly BBC and UTV/ Ch4 on the FTA mux and a top-up Pay TV scenario in operation too. But misguided greed and stupidity have us where we are today.
    With Eamonn Ryan now calling the shots, we now have hyper-stupidity and desperation added to the mix.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭carrolls


    With Eamonn Ryan now calling the shots, we now have hyper-stupidity and desperation added to the mix.
    Great parting shot.:D
    By the way this thread is referenced in Wikipedia on the topic of Irish DTT. With boards.ie nothing can get swept under the carpet.:cool:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    With Eamonn Ryan now calling the shots, we now have hyper-stupidity and desperation added to the mix.

    Ye are being hard on him, he has his priorities straight.

    He launched a tender for an Advanced ICT Technology Initiative to be deployed nationwide only last week.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭carrolls


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Ye are being hard on him, he has his priorities straight.

    He launched a tender for an Advanced ICT Technology Initiative to be deployed nationwide only last week.
    :D:D
    Eamonn Ryan couldn't organise a cycling safari in the Serengeti, let alone organize a modern national Digital broadcasting network.:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 291 ✭✭Biffo The Bare


    84. Deputy Liz McManus asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources the position regarding the free to air BBC services here in view of statements (details supplied) following the publication of the Memorandum of Understanding between him and the UK Government; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10103/10]

    Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan): Following the signing of the Memorandum of Understanding with the UK on digital broadcasting on 1 February 2010, it was found that a reference in the joint press release in relation to facilitating the provision of BBC services in Ireland did not accord with the text of the Memorandum. Following agreement between the two administrations, the press release was amended. The text of the memorandum and the press release is available on my Department’s website www.dcenr.ie.

    In the MOU dated 2001 there is nothing that would facilitate changing the text in the press release

    from

    The Memorandum commits the two Governments to facilitating the widespread availability of RTE services in Northern Ireland and BBC services in Ireland on a free-to-air basis.

    to

    The Memorandum commits the two Governments to facilitating the widespread availability of RTE services in Northern Ireland on a free-to-air basis and BBC services in Ireland on a paid for basis.

    Here is the actual text of the MOU that he is referring to.

    1:Arrangements are made to facilitate the widespread availability on the DTT platforms of BBC services in Ireland and of RTE services in Northern Ireland.
    2: Come to a mutually acceptable financial agreement regarding any transmission and associated costs.
    3: Facilitating the actions set out above in relation to all-island availability of television services.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭carrolls


    In the MOU dated 2001 there is nothing that would facilitate changing the text in the press release
    Surely you are not accusing the esteemed Mr Ryan of being unable to read. He actually set up a successful cycling safari business in a previous life. You have to be able to read to do something like that. Don't you?:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Another Dáil question last Tuesday regarding BBC availability down here, the ball appears to be in the BBC's court.
    Broadcasting Services.

    373. Deputy Liz McManus asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources the reason for his failure to ensure a contract to deliver digital terrestrial television; when that contract is to be signed; if he will commit to ensure free-to-air BBC coverage for the Republic of Ireland and RTE services for coverage in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11175/10]

    Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan): The Broadcasting Act, 2009 requires the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland (BAI), an independent regulatory authority, to provide for the development of commercial digital terrestrial television (DTT) services. On foot of this requirement, the BAI’s predecessor, the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland, launched a competition, which is still ongoing. As the Deputy is aware, the highest placed consortium in the competition withdrew from the process last April. Negotiations then commenced with the next placed bidder, OneVision and this process is continuing. As I stated recently in response to previous questions on this issue, I am not prepared to speculate on the outcome of the commercial DTT process, which is a matter for the BAI. Nor am I prepared to surmise on the ongoing negotiations between the BAI, RTÉ and the OneVision consortium. I have, however, made it clear that I would like to see this process concluded as soon as possible. The conclusion of the process is essential to provide certainty for broadcasters, suppliers and the general public with regard to the development of commercial DTT services in Ireland.

    Under section 129 of the Broadcasting Act 2009 RTÉ is required to ensure that ‘free-to-air’ DTT is available to approximately 90% of the population on such date as may be specified by the Minister. I signed an Order last week specifying this date as 31 October 2010. The Act also requires RTÉ to provide a national ‘free to air’ digital service with capacity to carry RTÉ 1, RTÉ 2, TG4 and TV3 by the end of 2011 or such later date as I may specify. I have written to RTÉ informing them that the date for provision of a national service is 31 December 2011. On 1 February last, I signed a Memorandum of Understanding on Digital Television with the UK. This commits both Governments to cooperating to help ensure the continuing widespread availability on the DTT platform of TG4 in Northern Ireland and that arrangements are made to facilitate the widespread availability on the DTT platforms of RTÉ services in Northern Ireland and BBC services in the Republic. Any such arrangements in respect of BBC services here will be a matter for the BBC in the first instance.

    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20100309.XML&Node=2951#N2951


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,581 ✭✭✭channelsurfer2


    The Cush wrote: »
    Another Dáil question last Tuesday regarding BBC availability down here, the ball appears to be in the BBC's court.

    translated that means when we realised here in the Department that we would actually have to foot the bill ourselves for paying bbc worldwide to make bbc1 and 2 available on dtt free to air we kicked ourselves in the foot and immedediatley did a u-turn as all good departments would do.....and re-worded the document to reflect a "better understanding" of the Departments vision....

    dont hold your breath for bbc to make their services free here at not cost on dtt. there would be an outcry in the daily mail etc" British taxpayers money used to ensure EIRE gets free bbc "!!!


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Is it just me or has the MOU changed again were initially we had an Understanding that BBC NI 1 and 2 available in ROI and TG4, RTÉ 1 and 2 in NI.

    Then just the FTA availability of TG4, RTÉ 1 and 2 in NI with Pay availability of BBC NI 1 and 2 in ROI.

    And now it seems that the MOU insures the availability of TG4 in NI FTA with the Widespread availability of BBC NI 1 and 2 and RTÉ 1 and 2. Meaning Pay services RTÉ in NI and Pay services for BBC NI in ROI.

    Also just to put this out, with the high take up of Sky and UPC and even with the payment of Sky and UPC to BBC WW for BBC NI 1 and 2 both companies shouldn't really be put out by this development. I think if the 3 ROI PSB channels and the 2 NI PSB channels are made available across the Island on an FTA basis that the pay services won't be put out at this late stage. And I don't see why the value of the channels would be reduced through FTA for BBC WW.

    Do Sky and Virgin pay for BBC to be available on their platforms in the UK?


  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭mrdtv2010


    [
    Do Sky and Virgin pay for BBC to be available on their platforms in the UK?[/QUOTE]

    No. BBC is must-carry on cable as are ITV1, 4 and Five. They are 'must-offer' for satellite: BBC and others pay their transmission and EPG listing costs. They saved millions by ditching Sky's encryption which is per subscriber charge for FTV channels, and they only pay Freesat for EPG listings as its the same uplinked streams to 28.2E.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Elmo wrote: »
    And now it seems that the MOU insures the availability of TG4 in NI FTA with the Widespread availability of BBC NI 1 and 2 and RTÉ 1 and 2. Meaning Pay services RTÉ in NI and Pay services for BBC NI in ROI.

    Also: this pretty much exists via Sky, UPC, Virgin, NI Analogue and FTA Sat.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭carrolls


    The BBC u-turn was a mistake of myopic proportions. Maybe Ryan should do the opposite of what his instinct tells him to do from now on and we might have a way out of this DTT fiasco.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,818 ✭✭✭Minstrel27


    carrolls wrote: »
    The BBC u-turn was a mistake of myopic proportions. Maybe Ryan should do the opposite of what his instinct tells him to do from now on and we might have a way out of this DTT fiasco.

    It shows that Ryan is all about making money for whoever runs the Pay tv on the DTT platform.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    carrolls wrote: »
    The BBC u-turn was a mistake of myopic proportions. Maybe Ryan should do the opposite of what his instinct tells him to do from now on and we might have a way out of this DTT fiasco.

    Unlike Minister O'Rourke who asked RTÉ to sell their share in Cablelink, unlike Minister DeValera who told RTÉ "to get their house in order" and that the money from the Cablelink sale should not be used for DTT development (In other words we don't want a Semi-state body holding on to commercial interests). This list of F-ups from Minister Ryan's predecessors in phenomenal.

    Ryan is dealing with an inherited problem far more major problems than what he has created.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭carrolls


    Elmo wrote: »
    Unlike Minister O'Rourke who asked RTÉ to sell their share in Cablelink, unlike Minister DeValera who told RTÉ "to get their house in order" and that the money from the Cablelink sale should not be used for DTT development (In other words we don't want a Semi-state body holding on to commercial interests). This list of F-ups from Minister Ryan's predecessors in phenomenal.

    Ryan is dealing with an inherited problem far more major problems than what he has created.
    DeValera is dead and O'Rourke is semi retired. Whats done is done.
    Ryan is in a position to make decisions NOW with DTT that can make the difference between success and failure. One of those decisions ( The BBC u-turn)has kicked a successful DTT launch into touch for another couple of years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    carrolls wrote: »
    DeValera is dead and O'Rourke is semi retired. Whats done is done.

    Different DeValera. O'Rourke isn't semi-retired enough. Whats done is done is the reason FF get back into government.:mad:

    In fairness to Ryan he has far more of a discussion going than the FF ministers had on the subject. Where are the Noel (keep the head down, what's done is done) Dempsey threads?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,760 ✭✭✭Apogee


    The Memorandum of Understanding PDF appears to have been removed from the previous sites on which it was hosted. Attached below.
    Elmo wrote: »
    This list of F-ups from Minister Ryan's predecessors in phenomenal.

    Ryan is dealing with an inherited problem far more major problems than what he has created.

    I have every faith in the Minister that, come the next general election, he will have created a list of his own f*ck ups which will surpass each of his predecessors.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The MOU is close to an International Treaty but not quite.

    Is Ryan that stupid that he would UNILATERALLY Breach an International Treaty ...before the ink is dry as the saying goes ??

    Is Ryan dumb enough to threaten the status of EVERY cross border agreement by abrogating this one ??

    .....don't answer that, he is :(

    Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of Ireland regarding the Digital Switchover and the provision of digital television services in Northern Ireland and Ireland.


    The purpose of this Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) is to provide a framework for the changes that are taking place in Northern Ireland and Ireland to the technologies used in the reception of television services.
    The Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement of 1998 and the 2006 St. Andrews Agreement, in paving the way for a permanent and lasting peace on the island, recognised the importance of the unique and diverse cultural and linguistic identities that exist on the island.

    In this context these Agreements have put in place arrangements to support a comprehensive sharing of cultural and societal information that is of importance to the communities on the island. This includes the decision by the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to seek to achieve widespread availability of the Irish language television channel Teilifis na Gaeilige (TG4) throughout Northern Ireland. Public service broadcasting supplied from both jurisdictions has a long recognised role to play throughout the island of Ireland in promoting cultural diversity, in providing educational programming, in objectively informing public opinion, in guaranteeing pluralism and in supplying quality entertainment.

    The development of the television transmission system, known as ‘Digital Terrestrial Television’ (DTT), has been put in place to a very significant extent in the UK including across Northern Ireland. This system is now starting to be built in Ireland. The construction of this system will allow for the digital switchover from the free-to-air analogue transmissions to DTT. The Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland plans for this to happen in Northern Ireland in 2012. While no specific date has been set for this in Ireland, the Government of Ireland intends to move proactively towards the digital switchover once the Irish DTT system has been put in place. The European Commission has proposed that Member States switch-off analogue transmissions by 2012.

    Once this has taken place, the DTT systems in both Northern Ireland and Ireland will be the primary means of providing free-to-air public service broadcasting to the television licence holder in both jurisdictions.

    The analogue systems that will be switched off have been the primary means of receiving free-to-air public service broadcasting since the 1950s in Northern Ireland and the 1960s in Ireland. However, it has been a factor of analogue free-to-air public service broadcasting since the 1950s that there has been, given the nature of analogue transmission, significant reception of signals from both jurisdictions throughout the island.

    A large proportion of viewers in Northern Ireland watch free-to-air analogue transmissions of Irish public service channels and a large proportion of viewers in Ireland watch free-to-air analogue transmissions of UK public service channels. Both Governments are mindful of the
    fact these viewers will no longer obtain such analogue overspill signals after the digital switchover has taken place.

    Co-operation

    In light of this, the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the Government of Ireland will cooperate to help ensure:
    a)A smooth transition to digital terrestrial television and the switch-off of analogue services on the island of Ireland.
    b)The widespread availability on the DTT platform of TG4 in Northern Ireland.
    c) That arrangements are made to facilitate the widespread availability on the DTT platforms of BBC services in Ireland and of RTE services in Northern Ireland.
    d)That public information campaigns about digital transition in both jurisdictions are coordinated in both delivery and content where it is mutually decided that suitable overlaps and sharing of information will assist the viewers. These campaigns should include information on the changes in overspill services in Ireland once the analogue signal is switched off.
    e)Arrangements are put in place to facilitate information sharing to allow for the development of digital terrestrial reception equipment which is compatible with the technical standards
    f)That the possibilities are explored regarding the reciprocal sharing in both jurisdictions of public service broadcasting digital radio services. applied in both jurisdictions.

    Actions

    The Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the Government of Ireland will also take the following action:
    a)Ensure spectrum availability on relevant DTT multiplexes in Ireland and Northern Ireland for the Public Service Channels identified above.
    b)Seek the agreement of the providers of the Television Services identified above to operate on the basis set out in this MOU and to facilitate the resolution of any broadcasting rights issues which may arise.
    c)Come to a mutually acceptable financial agreement regarding any transmission and associated costs.
    d)Arrange ongoing meetings between DCMS and DCENR, with other stakeholders attending as necessary, which will focus on:
    i)Sharing information in the context of digital transition information campaigns and on digital transition generally
    ii)Facilitating the ongoing spectrum coordination
    iii)Facilitating the actions set out above in relation to all-island availability of Television Services
    iv)Facilitating the sharing of information around set top box standards and other technology
    v)Exploring options in relation to the reciprocal sharing of digital radio services.

    Each Government will notify the other that it is ready to apply this Memorandum of Understanding. It will come into effect on the date of the later Government notification and will continue in effect until terminated by either Government on six months’ written notice.

    The foregoing record represents the understandings reached between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of Ireland upon the matters referred to therein.

    Signed in duplicate on………………….
    For the Government For the Government of Ireland
    of the United Kingdom of
    Great Britain and Northern Ireland


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭carrolls


    Heres the reason Ryan gave in the Dail when questioned about the u-turn.

    Following the signing of the Memorandum of Understanding with the UK on digital broadcasting on 1 February 2010, it was found that a reference in the joint press release in relation to facilitating the provision of BBC services in Ireland did not accord with the text of the Memorandum.

    I'm at a loss here. Maybe I'm missing something here.:o
    Where does the Memorandum Of Understanding (MOU) conflict with the original press release?
    The only text that was changed was on a free-to-air basis to on a paid for basis
    Where does the MOU say that the BBC services CANNOT be shown on DTT in Ireland on an FTA basis?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    carrolls wrote: »
    Heres the reason Ryan gave in the Dail when questioned about the u-turn.
    Where does the MOU say that the BBC services CANNOT be shown on DTT in Ireland on an FTA basis?

    The MOU says that the PRIMARY method is FTA and equally so on both sides of the border. The only question is whether this FTA service starts after Switchoff or not. The odd ambivalence is that BBC could be charged for until ASO in the South and THEREAFTER it must be free.

    Nor is it stated that it must be available on a PSB MUX in ths south....merely that it must be FTA in the South Post ASO.

    Then he babbled to Liz McManus that the BBC Player is not covered, that should be available in the south too surely.

    From the MoU
    The Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland plans for this to happen in Northern Ireland in 2012. While no specific date has been set for this in Ireland, the Government of Ireland intends to move proactively towards the digital switchover once the Irish DTT system has been put in place. The European Commission has proposed that Member States switch-off analogue transmissions by 2012.

    "Once this has taken place, the DTT systems in both Northern Ireland and Ireland will be the primary means of providing free-to-air public service broadcasting to the television licence holder in both jurisdictions. "

    A Solemn International Agreement is a solemn international agreement.

    Sadly The Only way I can explain solemn international agreements to Ryan is by pointing out D'Unbelievables short and sweet guide to International Law!

    "Ye Can't Be Doing That Lads"



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Apogee wrote: »
    I have every faith in the Minister that, come the next general election, he will have created a list of his own f*ck ups which will surpass each of his predecessors.

    He is trying to fix past F ups. Weather you like it or not the next Minister will be let do few more F ups. Previous ministers hadn't got this far to make this mistake. They did what all good FF minister do and did nothing, well it avoids messes and gets votes.

    The BAI has been on the cards since Higgins (BTW he was good), Sile DeValera (she isn't dead and is still a TD) took a number of years to get some form of a BAI only to back track on that, the other Ministers ignored or brushed away DTT and the BAI on several occasion.

    Minister Ryan came in with the BAI. Unfortunately what ever you say about Minister Ryan and Broadcasting he has actually had to push it on every occasion.

    A Solemn International Agreement is a solemn international agreement.

    The British are well used to breaking them. But what has been their response to this how has their NI minister reacted to this. How did his press release read?

    Lets face it with the money from the sale of Cablelink RTÉ would have been in a position to role out Pay DTT in 1999. But Síle DeValera's role in that will be ignored because Eamon Ryan didn't get FTA BBC on DTT.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,744 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    Elmo wrote: »
    Previous ministers hadn't got this far to make this mistake.
    How far has he actually got? And its ok to be s**t and screw up because the previous ministers were even more s**t and screwed up more?
    Don't defend the indefensible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Elmo wrote: »
    Sile DeValera (she isn't dead and is still a TD)
    She retired from the Dáil in 2007 and is still keeping an eye on things political.


  • Registered Users Posts: 837 ✭✭✭BarryM


    That arrangements are made to facilitate the widespread availability on the DTT platforms of BBC services in Ireland and of RTE services in Northern Ireland.

    Was that wording changed? if so, how? If not then there isn't any committement to do anything. "arrangements made" and "facilitate" are Sir Humphrey speak for seeming to be willing but committing to nuttin.

    Solemn, not on your nelly, it is an MoU, a sort of meaningless goodwill doc.

    The resulting confusion illustrates well the meaningless nature....

    The BBC is 'independent' so they'll look for money.

    Bye, Barry


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    And its ok to be s**t and screw up because the previous ministers were even more s**t and screwed up more?
    Don't defend the indefensible.

    She should have resigned. No I won't defend FF ever, but I think it is stupid to lay the issues that surround DTT fully on Ryan's door and in 2011 when we eventually get a change in government I won't be totally laying the issue of blame on whom ever takes up that position in the future either.

    No it isn't Okay but lets not forget what Ryan has been left with.
    How far has he actually got?

    He set up the BAI, he is possibly going to get into allot of trouble for rolling out DTT, a job that should have been done by his predecessors (but hey whats done is done). And he actually got to sign a MOU on the subject, unfortunately the MOU has been a pain in the ass. He shouldn't have signed anything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,744 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    Elmo wrote: »
    I think it is stupid to lay the issues that surround DTT fully on Ryan's door.
    So almost everybody who writes on this forum is stupid.

    He set up the BAI.
    He changed the 'C' to an 'A'. I learnt to do that at four years old.


    And he actually got to sign a MOU on the subject.
    And then ripped it up before the ink was dry depriving his own countryfolk of any benefits that might come from the treaty.

    Elmo get a grip.:o


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    So almost everybody who writes on this forum is stupid.

    He changed the 'C' to an 'A'. I learnt to do that at four years old.

    And then ripped it up before the ink was dry depriving his own countryfolk of any benefits that might come from the treaty.

    Elmo get a grip.:o

    The BAI now regulates Independent and Public TV and Radio, and has a wider remit.

    I am not suggesting that everyone on the thread is stupid don't make it out to be like that.

    I could go around agree with everyone here but it would be much of a discussions boards if everyone agree with everyone else.

    Get a grip 10000Manics.
    And then ripped it up before the ink was dry depriving his own countryfolk of any benefits that might come from the treaty.

    His predecessors did that along time ago, they never even thought about it.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,760 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Elmo wrote: »
    He is trying to fix past F ups.

    Trying. And failing.


Advertisement