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Scientific explanation for Ghosts?

  • 13-01-2011 6:30pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1


    I don't really believe in the ghosts, probably because I've never experienced anything supernatural. However, my girlfriend is an absolute believer, claiming she saw a ghost when she was 15. Any attempts to try and reason with her gets her angry, and then we get in an argument. She's level headed, extremely bright, and a college graduate. But when it comes to ghosts... :rolleyes:

    So what do you guys think of this?
    There may be an explanation for things like ghosts and hauntings. And it's not your mind simply playing tricks on you.

    Are you hearing weird sounds, briefly seeing ghostly images, feel a presence in the room with you, or an inexplicable and sudden sense of overwhelming fear?

    It just might be infrasound.

    http://zidbits.com/2010/11/25/a-scientific-explanation-for-ghosts/

    Can anyone with a science background confirm? Is there any truth to infrasound being the reason?


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 336 ✭✭cianl1


    There may be some truth to this after all...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrasound#The_Ghost_in_the_Machine

    Seems that it resonates closely to the eye's resonant frequency and that's what makes us see things that aren't there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭Encoder1970


    It could an explanation for some phenomena but there are plenty other sighting etc that cannot be explained this way.
    It doesn't mean it's ghosts, it just means we cannot explain them yet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭gerryk


    My explanation for most hallucinations is this...

    1. our brain is a highly efficient pattern matching device
    2. when functioning normally, the 'false positive' rate is very low
    3. when functioning suboptimally (tired, under influence of chemicals, stressed, emotional) this false positive rate raises, allowing random neural background noise to slip through the filter and be recognised as something... a voice, a human shape etc.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAC_TSR-2
    Test pilot Roland Beamont finally made the first flight from the Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment (A&AEE) at Boscombe Down, Wiltshire, on 27 September 1964.[64] Initial flight tests were all performed with the undercarriage down and engine power strictly controlled—with limits of 250 kt and 10,000 ft on the first (15-minute) flight. Shortly after takeoff on XR219's second flight, vibration from a fuel pump at the resonant frequency of the human eyeball caused the pilot to throttle back one engine to avoid loss of vision.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭FarmerGreen


    Why don't I believe that is remotely possible?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 81 ✭✭Deepwell


    I’m not sure how infrasound would conjure the images that are often associated with ghostly sightings other than it triggers a subliminal event and then our imagination joins the dots based on hearsay.

    I once worked for an engineering director who, for me provided the most plausible, scientifically based (almost) explanation for ghosts. In summary (and as I recall it) it was as follows:

    Most haunting’s are associated with traumatic events, often surrounding the loss of a life and typically occur in old buildings (e.g. castles, etc.) which used a high percentage of natural stone in their construction. Such stone often has significant levels of iron and quartz in their composition.

    During the human trauma the brain generates high levels of electromagnetic energy which can affect the magnetisation of the iron in the surrounding stone, which in effect becomes a recording medium much like a how cassette tape or hard disk platter works.

    Now for playback you need someone who is extra sensitive to these magnetic fields (AKA a “medium”) and a particular set of conditions that facilitate the pickup of the magnetised patterns – possibly through the quartz generating infrasounds?

    I can’t vouch for the scientific basis for this, but for me its more plausible and a lot more comforting than the thought of a ‘spirit with unfinished business’.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Deepwell wrote: »
    Such stone often has significant levels of iron and quartz in their composition.

    During the human trauma the brain generates high levels of electromagnetic energy which can affect the magnetisation of the iron in the surrounding stone, which in effect becomes a recording medium much like a how cassette tape or hard disk platter works.

    Now for playback you need someone who is extra sensitive to these magnetic fields (AKA a “medium”) and a particular set of conditions that facilitate the pickup of the magnetised patterns – possibly through the quartz generating infrasounds?

    I can’t vouch for the scientific basis for this, but for me its more plausible and a lot more comforting than the thought of a ‘spirit with unfinished business’.
    Human brain doesn't generate large amounts of energy , you need very sensitive sensors to pick it up

    To magnetise something you need to raise the magnetic field above a certain level, to do this at any sort of distance would probably need such a strong magnetic field that you'd feel drawn to Ferrous metals near by.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Little Acorn


    Please don't ask me to explain these in great scientific detail, because I won't be able to, but I have heard a few other theories aswell.
    One is that ghosts are people trapped in some sort of time bubble that they can't leave, and so are stuck in the same time period repeating themselves like groundhog day.
    Another is something to do with parallel universes, and for some reason some people are able to get a glance of the people[now ghosts] in them, yet the ghost is unaware that they can be seen.
    Another is that some of us change after death and that ghosts are an energy form that leave the body after death and remain active.

    Just so you know where I stand, I do believe in ghosts. I don't know the reasons of why they are there, but I do believe they exist.
    I just don't think that millions of people all over the world are lying, including a small few people I know who are the biggest skeptics you could meet but have had what would be described as ghostly experiences.
    I have never seen a ghost, but in my college house there was a few very freaky incidents regarding a large heavy item of furniture moving by itself.
    Would this infrasound thing explain items moving by themselves?
    I'm also interested in stories where people claim to have sightings/receive a message from the ghost of a loved one. Or see a vision of a loved one who is many miles away, and then discover that the person had just died at the the same time that they saw them.
    The infrasound thing could explain the quick glimpses of shadowy figures, or hearing noises/voices, but I don't know if it could explained the very detailed ghostly experiences that some people have??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    WoodDoug wrote: »
    claiming she saw a ghost when she was 15.

    I wouldn't try and convince her she didn't see a ghost, I would instead try and just get to think why does she think it was a "ghost" in the first place, in stead of simply an unexplained phenomena.

    This is the problem with a lot of supernatural explanations, people accept the burden of demonstrating it wasn't supernatural claim X, Y, Z rather than the person making the claim having the burden of demonstrating it was.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,048 ✭✭✭partyndbs


    i dont really believe in ghosts much but i want 2 no what the **** called me and my sister from our mum and dads room when we were younger...i wouldnt mind if it was just me who remembers it but so does my sister...like omg that fear i experienced when i heard that voice will stick with me for ever.....calling out our names :eek: omg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,650 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    infrasound is well documented, as is the effects of high emf and even wifi radiation.

    it doesnt though explain all facets of apparent paranormal occurrences.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,650 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Wicknight wrote: »
    rather than the person making the claim having the burden of demonstrating it was.

    personally, i dont believe anyone should have to prove anything. you either believe them or you dont, full stop. people who believe they have experienced a ghost usually arent that interested in convincing someone who never has. its generally the other way around - the person who never had such an experience usually claims it cant happen (as it never happened to them) and therefore demand the other 'proves' their experience. pretty stupid and shortsighted if you ask me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,650 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Deepwell wrote: »

    Most haunting’s are associated with traumatic events, often surrounding the loss of a life and typically occur in old buildings (e.g. castles, etc.) which used a high percentage of natural stone in their construction. Such stone often has significant levels of iron and quartz in their composition.

    I wouldnt say that's really true. especially the 'old buildings' bit. what you describe is typically what people believe though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    maccored wrote: »
    personally, i dont believe anyone should have to prove anything. you either believe them or you dont, full stop. people who believe they have experienced a ghost usually arent that interested in convincing someone who never has. its generally the other way around - the person who never had such an experience usually claims it cant happen (as it never happened to them) and therefore demand the other 'proves' their experience. pretty stupid and shortsighted if you ask me.
    Hence why paranormal stuff is relegated to fringe echo chambers where everyone tells each other stories and gives each other a fright, and isn't taken seriously by mainstream scientists.

    Scientists like to present evidence and argue for the validity of their conclusions with other qualified people. That's how our knowledge of the universe gets advanced.

    If others took your "I don't think anyone should have to prove anything" philosophy seriously, then we'd probably be living in caves at the moment. Thankfully there are people out there who make the effort to back up their claims.

    If you are happy enough to have your outlandish beliefs that you and your pals can talk about, but everyone outside your circle is too cynical or has standards of evidence that are too high to appreciate, then knock yourself out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    I guess it really depends on you're definition to what a ghost is?
    In order to gauge something to be super-natural you must first understand the natural.

    I have a number of friends, actually more so older people I know who have claimed to have seen ghosts, heard ghosts or have had some kind of what they claim to be a super-natural experience.

    I think people simply deem something super-natural when they themselves cannot explain it, then usually with a little imagination the story becomes more fantastical.

    Infra-sound is a natural phenomenon which can cause unusual experiences, this would explain a number of events, but of course not all.
    We have the individual, the experience and the environment.
    Infra-sounds shows that something environmental can have an effect on the individual.

    In many cases you then have to look at the individual, do they suffer from any mental disorders? anything that can cause unusual feelings? anything that can cause strange sensations or even hallucination? or something as simple as being over tired or even over stimulated?

    There is an experience known as "the hag" which people all over the world have experienced. The experience usually is something that happens when the individual is in bed or laying down, the experience can include seeing ghostly apparitions and a feeling of being held.

    In short the explanation is quite simple:
    The brain operates differently when awake to when sleeping, when we sleep a chemical in the body is release to paralyse or disconnect the thoughts / dreams to the rest of the body. However the chemical sometimes is not released properly when we sleep, this is why sometimes as we dream we jump in our sleep usually waking us up completely.
    The opposite can also happen when we wake and have the sensation of not being able to move, commonly known as sleep paralysis.

    When we are tried the brain can take little nano sleeps, during this time it is almost like sleeping and being awake at the same time, where dreams can almost manifest when being partially awake.
    This has explained a lot of so called ghostly apparitions more so the ones involving family members or people we actually know.

    Usually people who claim to have seen ghosts are people who want to see ghosts. Seeing a ghost is no different than saying you have just seen flying aliens by claiming you just saw a UFO!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,196 ✭✭✭the culture of deference


    Please don't ask me to explain these in great scientific detail, because I won't be able to, but I have heard a few other theories aswell.

    Just so you know where I stand, I do believe in ghosts.

    I don't know the reasons of why they are there, but I do believe they exist.

    I have never seen a ghost,

    So you dont know but you choose to believe anyway ???


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So you dont know but you choose to believe anyway ???

    But surely you don't know either?

    It kind of has to come down to what you believe on the basis of what you think. Some people think that the absence of proof is enough for them to say they don't believe, and some people think that the absence of proof leaves them open to believe. I don't believe in ghosts myself, but if someone I know believed in them I wouldn't take it upon myself to "educate" them otherwise.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Little Acorn


    So you dont know but you choose to believe anyway ???

    Yes I believe that people have experienced seeing things that could be described as ghosts, or have had what could be called ghostly experiences.
    Ghosts are just the only word I know to explain these things, I do believe there is probably scientific explanation for sightings, or in my case movement of heavy furniture, but so far science just hasn't found an explanation or answer for these things yet.
    A lot of things can and have been given rational explanations, but some things still haven't, and explanations for them have yet to be discovered.
    I tried to give a few examples of theories I have heard before, but I would not have much knowledge of these theories as I study biomedical science and only physics 101.
    Someone with perhaps more knowledge of physics, or time or energy or parallel universe theories etc. might be able to offer better explanations for those theories.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 dlorde


    A problem with paranormal or supernatural claims regarding ghosts and the like - as popularly represented - (i.e. independent entities, or some kind of playback of recorded events) is that not only is there no good, objective evidence for them, such as measurable or consistently repeatable phenomena, but that there are no plausible mechanisms for them. The majority of non-scientific explanations/descriptions I've heard would involve totally new and unknown physics, and in particular, physics contrary to the laws of thermodynamics, etc. If physics didn't work the way we know it does, our modern world wouldn't be possible - this puts obvious constraints on the kind of explanation that is possible.

    On the other hand, we have become increasingly aware in recent years that the reality we believe we see around us is mostly an internal mental construct generated from expectation and prediction - we are notoriously unreliable observers, and even worse recallers. Not only do we see what we expect to see, but we are primed to see patterns, particularly human bodies and faces, in the world around us, and we have a strong tendency to anthropomorphise unfamiliar or unpredictable events. We become anxious in new or unfamiliar situations, and when we become anxious, the tendencies to see patterns and anthropomorphise are exaggerated - they are survival strategies, and also become stronger when we're tired (and therefore more vulnerable). Darkness or half-light with its visual uncertainty, ancient or creaky structures, and 'spooky' storytelling, all increase these tendencies through the interaction of imagination and anxiety. Infrasound is also known be disturbing and to increase anxiety (hence the use of ultra-low bass to enhance the effect of films & video games).

    Many 'haunted' houses, castles, caves, battlefields, etc., are known because notoriety, such as associations with extreme violence or grim events, attracts visitors, and a haunting adds to the cachet - and the expectations of the visitors.

    Little wonder that people see 'ghosts'! It would be more surprising if they didn't...


  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭Sitric


    Carbon monoxide poisoning probably explains quite a few "sightings". Check your ventilation!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 214 ✭✭Antikythera


    partyndbs wrote: »
    i dont really believe in ghosts much but i want 2 no what the **** called me and my sister from our mum and dads room when we were younger...i wouldnt mind if it was just me who remembers it but so does my sister...like omg that fear i experienced when i heard that voice will stick with me for ever.....calling out our names :eek: omg

    picturestakenattheright.jpg
    wWooOO0owooOO


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,650 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Dave! wrote: »
    If you are happy enough to have your outlandish beliefs that you and your pals can talk about, but everyone outside your circle is too cynical or has standards of evidence that are too high to appreciate, then knock yourself out.

    If you are happy to believe you know it all, and dont mind overly generalising, stereotyping and looking on down on those who have a differing opinion than you, then knock yourself out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Bumps a 9 month old thread only to contribute nothing whatsoever...

    I have no problem with differing opinions as long as they're backed up by evidence and logic

    I'm not into the "live and let live" philosophy that you're promoting, where every opinion is equally valid and everyone has to be taken seriously even if they don't back up their claims in any way


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Can we please get back on topic.

    It's a science forum though so more with stuff that can be measured or demonstrated or interesting thought experiments or how would ghosts etc. interact with the corporeal world in a manner that hasn't been detectable by mainstream science

    stuff like

    Infrasound , microwaves causing auditary sensation in your head, how do huumans humans sense humidity changes or whatever relative to instruments ?

    correlations between ghost sightings and rural electrification, stuff like deja vu , nocturnal animals , frequency of ghost sightings in places like Hiroshima or after famines


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,650 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Dave,. Im not really too worried what you have problems with. I 'bumped' a 9 month old thread as I only just caught your statement. It needed correcting. Personally, I'd love to see you back up your own cynical claims. Where for example, is your information that backs up completely the idea that the paranormal is rubbish?

    Surely you have researched that and can back up your claim with evidence and logic?

    What, you can't? Well - I never.

    Dave! wrote: »
    Bumps a 9 month old thread only to contribute nothing whatsoever...

    I have no problem with differing opinions as long as they're backed up by evidence and logic

    I'm not into the "live and let live" philosophy that you're promoting, where every opinion is equally valid and everyone has to be taken seriously even if they don't back up their claims in any way


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,650 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Infrasound has been proven to replicate some paranormal experiences, and some claim high levels of EMF can do the same. Afaik, ghost sightings aren't very common ... I would certainly be of the opinion that a very very high percentage of reported paranormal claims arent paranormal at all.

    I think this comes down to who is doing the work? There are people out there researching these kinds of claims, who would tell you they have come across less explainable 'paranormal' cases. Then there are those who dont research at all, but see themselves as some sort of all knowing paranormal expert (Hi Dave!). Personally in my mind, if a person isnt out there looking, then I dont really take too much notice of their opinion.
    Can we please get back on topic.

    It's a science forum though so more with stuff that can be measured or demonstrated or interesting thought experiments or how would ghosts etc. interact with the corporeal world in a manner that hasn't been detectable by mainstream science

    stuff like

    Infrasound , microwaves causing auditary sensation in your head, how do huumans humans sense humidity changes or whatever relative to instruments ?

    correlations between ghost sightings and rural electrification, stuff like deja vu , nocturnal animals , frequency of ghost sightings in places like Hiroshima or after famines


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    maccored wrote: »
    Dave,. Im not really too worried what you have problems with. I 'bumped' a 9 month old thread as I only just caught your statement. It needed correcting. Personally, I'd love to see you back up your own cynical claims. Where for example, is your information that backs up completely the idea that the paranormal is rubbish?

    Surely you have researched that and can back up your claim with evidence and logic?

    What, you can't? Well - I never.

    Prove a negative? How do I go about doing that?

    Prove to me that there isn't a giant invisible pink unicorn flying in the sky above the Liffey.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Final reminder to all attack the post but not the poster


    talk about the science / evidence and provide links


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 315 ✭✭happyman81


    Why is being a 'ghost' almost the exclusive domain of former living humans? Why no ghost trees? Ghost dinosaurs? Has this something to do with the notion of a 'soul'?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    happyman81 wrote: »
    Why is being a 'ghost' almost the exclusive domain of former living humans? Why no ghost trees? Ghost dinosaurs? Has this something to do with the notion of a 'soul'?
    People don't like the idea that death means the end - ideas such as spirits and ghosts tie in with the notion of an afterlife, in my opinion.


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