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Dramatic fall in number failing maths

  • 15-08-2012 8:37am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    This isn’t strictly an economics news story, but it’s relevant to many a discussion that’s been had on this forum in recent times:
    In a reversal of recent trends, the number failing maths in the Leaving Certificate has fallen dramatically, while record numbers opted to take the subject at higher level.


    While the number failing maths this year is still relatively high at close to 4,000, this is down by 20 per cent on recent years.


    Last night, Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn welcomed the record number of students who took higher level maths in the exam – 22 per per cent of all maths students took the higher paper, compared to 16 per cent last year. Remarkably, only 256 students of the 11,000-plus who took higher maths failed the paper.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0815/breaking1.html

    Of course, there are the inevitable cries of marking standards being “dumbed down”, but I personally view the fact that so many more students have opted for the higher level maths paper as being extremely encouraging. It’s also not bad news for Ireland’s image abroad either.

    While I am surprised at the magnitude in the change in attitude towards maths (although I’m sure the bonus CAO points played a big part), I’m not surprised at the general reversal in the recent trend of students shying away from the subject. I think the prosperity of the last 10-15 years helped to foster the idea that “difficult” school subjects were not essential for securing course places, jobs and eventually money. Thankfully, it seems this notion has been consigned to the dustbin.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    I dont know how that compares to other countries but it is still quite high. I recall my school days and am still puzzled at applied maths being only the preserve of honours students. I would have thought a lesser student would benefit from the more visual nature of applied maths.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    1 in 10 pupils not sitting Irish also


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭spank_inferno


    The flip side of the Irish language drop is the increase in foreign language take up.

    Which I feel is unfair on native students.
    It's always going to be easier for a Polish child to comprehend their native tongue and construct simple conversation versus an Irish child where (in all honesty) the language is alien to most of us.

    The maths stats are encouraging though.
    I hope its a genuine improvement, rather than a simpler test/curriculum.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    The flip side of the Irish language drop is the increase in foreign language take up.

    Which I feel is unfair on native students.
    It's always going to be easier for a Polish child to comprehend their native tongue and construct simple conversation versus an Irish child where (in all honesty) the language is alien to most of us.

    The maths stats are encouraging though.
    I hope its a genuine improvement, rather than a simpler test/curriculum.
    You really didn't think that through did you? I mean as opposed to all other subjects where the native English speaker has an advantage?
    Also in spite of Poland being one of the larger European countries I would say that we're mostly talking about French, Spanish, German and Italian here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    The flip side of the Irish language drop is the increase in foreign language take up.

    Which I feel is unfair on native students.
    It's always going to be easier for a Polish child to comprehend their native tongue and construct simple conversation versus an Irish child where (in all honesty) the language is alien to most of us.
    I don't really understand what you mean by this?
    The maths stats are encouraging though.
    I hope its a genuine improvement, rather than a simpler test/curriculum.
    Well, as I said above, I'm just happy to see more students tackle the higher level paper.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,135 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Great news on both counts imo.

    That only 22% of students are taking the higher paper is still a cause for concern but such a large increase shows that the bonus points for Maths and media focus on the lack of prospects for poorly qualified graduates is moving things in the right direction.

    Delighted to see less students wasting their time on Irish too. When my daughter begins secondary school I'll be combing the opt-out rules with a fine-tooth comb for a loophole to get her out of it unless it's been dropped as a compulsory subject by then.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8 blakfact


    Terrible News. The only reason the numbers failing has decreased, is because the material at both higher level and ordinary level has been so dumbed down, a trained chimp could do the questions. Good luck in trying to apply to Oxford or Cambridge with an "A" in Maths at either levels, you would be laughed out the door.

    The Public Sector in this country is a disgrace. Dropping standards to "pass" more people is Fraud. The decreased failure rate is attributed to Public Sector Fraud.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,135 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    blakfact wrote: »
    Terrible News. The only reason the numbers failing has decreased, is because the material at both higher level and ordinary level has been so dumbed down, a trained chimp could do the questions. Good luck in trying to apply to Oxford or Cambridge with an "A" in Maths at either levels, you would be laughed out the door.

    The Public Sector in this country is a disgrace. Dropping standards to "pass" more people is Fraud. The decreased failure rate is attributed to Public Sector Fraud.
    Any evidence to back that up or just having a rant?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8 blakfact


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Any evidence to back that up or just having a rant?

    Evidence huh? What other professional body outside of Ireland actually recognise the Leaving Cert as a legitimate qualification? Feck all really. No country has the ability to audit our courses, except Ireland. Conflicts of interest abound.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    blakfact wrote: »
    The only reason the numbers failing has decreased, is because the material at both higher level and ordinary level has been so dumbed down, a trained chimp could do the questions.
    So if I were to pick a question at random from a leaving cert maths paper, any question, you'd have no trouble at all producing the correct answer?
    blakfact wrote: »
    Good luck in trying to apply to Oxford or Cambridge with an "A" in Maths at either levels, you would be laughed out the door.
    So there are absolutely no Irish students at Oxford or Cambridge? News to me.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8 blakfact


    djpbarry wrote: »
    So if I were to pick a question at random from a leaving cert maths paper, any question, you'd have no trouble at all producing the correct answer?
    So there are absolutely no Irish students at Oxford or Cambridge? News to me.

    That is beside the point. I could ask you a question you have not studied before too. That does not mean it's actually challenging however, more a case of "learn this and plonk it down" in the exam, which is systemic in Irish Education. It's the reason Ireland will never amount to a super or even mid power. Getting into either University without sitting their internal exams or the English exams is no easy task. If the Leaving Cert is so respected, why is it only taught in Ireland? Answer me that please.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Hardly surprising after hearing how easy it was to pick up marks from students after the exam.

    I would imagine the rise in passes is due to that, rather than any sort of mathematical revolution taking place beneath out noses.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    blakfact wrote: »
    That is beside the point.
    You said a trained chimp could sit the exam – surely, even without preparation, you could answer one question that a chimp could answer?
    blakfact wrote: »
    I could ask you a question you have not studied before too. That does not mean it's actually challenging however, more a case of "learn this and plonk it down" in the exam...
    Not so much in the case of the maths exam, no – it’s relatively easy to ask the same question in a variety of different ways in order to test whether students really understand the material. But, without seeing this year’s exam, I cannot really comment. But then, neither can you.
    blakfact wrote: »
    Getting into either University without sitting their internal exams or the English exams is no easy task.
    You basically said that anyone applying to Oxford or Cambridge on the basis of their Leaving cert would be “laughed out the door” – you’re now backtracking from that statement?
    blakfact wrote: »
    If the Leaving Cert is so respected, why is it only taught in Ireland? Answer me that please.
    You’re constructing a straw man – I never said the Leaving cert was particularly respected. But, for the purposes of university entry, it is essentially treated as equivalent to A- and O-levels here in the UK (and vice-versa).


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,135 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    http://www.study.cam.ac.uk/undergraduate/apply/requirements/#irish
    http://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate_courses/international_applicants/international_qualifications/index.html

    There you go both the University of Cambridge and University of Oxford accept the Leaving Cert as an entrance exam.

    Or are the two most famous universities in the world not good enough for you?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭ Amirah Lazy Uterus


    blakfact wrote: »
    That is beside the point. I could ask you a question you have not studied before too. That does not mean it's actually challenging however, more a case of "learn this and plonk it down" in the exam, which is systemic in Irish Education. It's the reason Ireland will never amount to a super or even mid power. Getting into either University without sitting their internal exams or the English exams is no easy task. If the Leaving Cert is so respected, why is it only taught in Ireland? Answer me that please.

    It's taught in Libya also.

    Also the Honors Maths paper isn't easy. I'm out of school 3 years and anyone I know who did honours maths basically spent all their study time trying to learn and be able to do it. if it was so easy this wouldn't be the case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    Hardly surprising after hearing how easy it was to pick up marks from students after the exam.
    I heard the reaction was decidedly mixed:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0611/breaking38.html
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0609/1224317568258.html
    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    I would imagine the rise in passes is due to that, rather than any sort of mathematical revolution taking place beneath out noses.
    Nobody is talking about any kind of “revolution”. As said a couple of times already, I’m just pleased to see more students attempt the higher level paper. As already admitted, this most likely has a lot to do with the bonus CAO points.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I heard the reaction was decidedly mixed:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0611/breaking38.html
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0609/1224317568258.html
    Nobody is talking about any kind of “revolution”. As said a couple of times already, I’m just pleased to see more students attempt the higher level paper. As already admitted, this most likely has a lot to do with the bonus CAO points.

    Exactly, it's because of the bonus points.

    The question is whether we should applaud this kind of ducking and diving around attempts to completely overhaul the system as some sort of achievement?


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,135 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    How can an increase in students attempting and passing the higher level paper not be an achievement? TBH, I see it as evidence that the bonus points scheme is beginning to yield fruit.

    Overhauling the entire educations system will take at least a decade. In the meantime, every piecemeal step we can take that improves it should be taken imo. Especially one like this that was effectively a matter of the stroke of a pen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    When my daughter begins secondary school I'll be combing the opt-out rules with a fine-tooth comb for a loophole to get her out of it unless it's been dropped as a compulsory subject by then.

    Are there loopholes for people indoctrinating their children with an anti Irish disposition?
    Nobody is talking about any kind of “revolution”. As said a couple of times already, I’m just pleased to see more students attempt the higher level paper. As already admitted, this most likely has a lot to do with the bonus CAO points.

    Teenagers act in herds without any real logic in many cases and parents often do little to advise them. The bonus points lead to people choosing honours maths, but it also creates an environment where doing maths is seen as sensible and eliminates the perverse attitudes that were discouraging people from doing maths or persevering at it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,135 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Are there loopholes for people indoctrinating their children with an anti Irish disposition?
    I don't know, haven't read the rules yet in the (perhaps overly-optimistic) belief that I may not have to, it'll be 9 years before it's relevant to me.

    I disagree that not wanting to force a child to study a subject of dubious value is "indoctrinating [them] to have an anti Irish disposition". It's looking for the best outcomes for your child which is a fairly common trait in human beings.

    Besides, at that point the Irish education system will have already had 8 years to indoctrinate her with their grá for the language.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    I disagree that not wanting to force a child to study a subject of dubious value is "indoctrinating [them] to have an anti Irish disposition". It's looking for the best outcomes for your child which is a fairly common trait in human beings.

    Conveying an anti education bias to a child is one of the least helpful things any parent can do, in my opinion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Conveying an anti education bias to a child is one of the least helpful things any parent can do, in my opinion.
    I don't think the poster is suggesting his child play video games while the other children are studying Irish.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,135 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Personally, I'd see it as attempting to maximise the educational benefit of my daughter's time in secondary school but we're never going to agree on this subject. I must say that the notion that being against compulsory Irish is anti-education seems a little over-the-top view for even the most militant supporter of the language imo.

    Since I'm never going to convince you of my opinion that keeping the language compulsory is both unfair to students without a propensity for a second language and of little to no use for those that do and you're not going to convince me that the study of Irish should be compulsory at secondary level because you (and, admittedly, many others) see it as part of our "cultural identity" why don't we just agree to disagree and not derail this topic further?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    Exactly, it's because of the bonus points.
    I couldn’t care less if more students are attempting higher level maths because the Easter bunny told them to – it’s still a positive sign.
    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    The question is whether we should applaud this kind of ducking and diving around attempts to completely overhaul the system as some sort of achievement?
    Regardless of whether a complete overhaul is required, such an overhaul is not going to be implemented overnight. It’s going to require small, incremental steps over time. Furthermore, many of those changes are going to be subject-specific. For example, I see a lot more wrong with how languages than I do with how maths is taught. If it were up to me, I’d be tweaking the maths course (and/or how it’s taught) rather than tearing it all up and starting again.

    As regards “achievement” – has anyone hailed it as such?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I couldn’t care less if more students are attempting higher level maths because the Easter bunny told them to – it’s still a positive sign.
    Regardless of whether a complete overhaul is required, such an overhaul is not going to be implemented overnight. It’s going to require small, incremental steps over time. Furthermore, many of those changes are going to be subject-specific. For example, I see a lot more wrong with how languages than I do with how maths is taught. If it were up to me, I’d be tweaking the maths course (and/or how it’s taught) rather than tearing it all up and starting again.

    As regards “achievement” – has anyone hailed it as such?

    Come on now, rigging the system to make conditions as favorable as possible to people who seem to know the least about the subject is hardly a positive if you examine anything other than failure rates.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    Come on now, rigging the system to make conditions as favorable as possible to people who seem to know the least about the subject is hardly a positive if you examine anything other than failure rates.
    The failure rate has most likely only declined because the number sitting the exam has increased - the absolute number failing is still pretty high.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Sleepy wrote: »
    I disagree that not wanting to force a child to study a subject of dubious value is "indoctrinating [them] to have an anti Irish disposition". It's looking for the best outcomes for your child which is a fairly common trait in human beings.

    The irony is that the kids who are forced to do Irish are the ones with the anti-Irish disposition!

    As for honours maths - why don't we force everyone to do honours Maths too? LOL :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,135 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    I think the bonus points are incentive enough. The students who are capable of technical subjects in university are well capable of honours maths/ I struggled with it myself in secondary school but despite being advised to drop to Ordinary Level, I still achieved an honour (just about, a C3) in the subject in the end.

    There's no point in forcing subjects on students that are incapable of passing them but when the vast majority of them take as important a subject as Maths at lower or foundation level, we need to incentivise them to do so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Conveying an anti education bias to a child is one of the least helpful things any parent can do, in my opinion.
    WTF? Wanting your child to do something more useful than Irish at school is the opposite of "anti education" in my book. If "basket weaving" was a compulsory subject would you view that in the same light should a parent wish their child not to partake in lessons on it?

    Irish is not useful in the real world for 99.9% of school leavers.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭doc_17


    The fall in numbers failing is partly due to the actual numbers doing the LC this year compared to last year. The failure rate at OL (which was the biggest contributor to the numbers failing) has only dropped from 9.8% last year to 9.5% this year.


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