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History of Irish Cable

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135

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    #62
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    Elmo wrote: »
    How long before RTE was put on Horizons service?

    When they switched to digital.


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    #63
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    When they switched to digital.

    That's bad really. What kind of reception did they have for MMDS vs Terrestrial?


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    #64
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,511 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    Elmo wrote: »
    That's bad really. What kind of reception did they have for MMDS vs Terrestrial?

    The reason for this was that analogue MMDS was exempt from the usual must carry rules for terrestrial channels (with the exemption of TV3). The reason for this is that analogue MMDS can only carry 11/12 channels depending on area. Once you've taken the traditional UK 4, and added TV3, Sky One and Sky News, that's already seven stations gone. There would typically be one or two more satellite stations and then Irish Multichannel and Cablelink both offered a basic Sky Movies/Sports service with the remaining capacity (typcially just Sky Movies and Sky Sports 1, with Sky Sports 2 being offered in 12 channel areas).

    Really, exempting analogue MMDS from carrying RTÉ was sensible given that it can be picked up off-air anyway.


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    #65
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    icdg wrote: »
    The reason for this was that analogue MMDS was exempt from the usual must carry rules for terrestrial channels (with the exemption of TV3). The reason for this is that analogue MMDS can only carry 11/12 channels depending on area. Once you've taken the traditional UK 4, and added TV3, Sky One and Sky News, that's already seven stations gone. There would typically be one or two more satellite stations and then Irish Multichannel and Cablelink both offered a basic Sky Movies/Sports service with the remaining capacity (typcially just Sky Movies and Sky Sports 1, with Sky Sports 2 being offered in 12 channel areas).

    Really, exempting analogue MMDS from carrying RTÉ was sensible given that it can be picked up off-air anyway.

    What about TG4?


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    #66
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    TV3 only has 80% coverage.
    TG4 allegedly has full coverage, except the people that want iit most often need 2 aerials :(


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    #67
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Did TV3 pay for the extra coverage they got?


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    #68
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    TV3 have LESS coverage because they won't pay for it.


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    #69
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    watty wrote: »
    TV3 have LESS coverage because they won't pay for it.

    But back in 1998 did they pay Horizon or Chourus or CMI??? for access to their Microwave system?

    Why won't they pay for it?


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    #70
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Just reading something here it states that 6 channels were only technically possible on VHF cable signals and that the other 3 would cause derteriation and that UHF was difficult and should only be allowed in Apartment blocks.

    This was when radio used Band II in cable systems, not sure if analogue systems still carry radio signals.

    Is this correct? for 1984.

    There were 33 local operators in 1984.


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    #71
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,511 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    Elmo wrote: »
    Just reading something here it states that 6 channels were only technically possible on VHF cable signals and that the other 3 would cause derteriation and that UHF was difficult and should only be allowed in Apartment blocks.

    This was when radio used Band II in cable systems, not sure if analogue systems still carry radio signals.

    Is this correct? for 1984.

    There were 33 local operators in 1984.

    The more technically minded might be able to elaborate. My immediate reaction is that they were probably looking for a justification to keep out the then infant satellite channels that were springing up. It seems quite too coincidental that the 6 "technically possible" channels equated exactly with the number of Irish and UK terrestrial channels on air at that time.

    Just two years later they were allowing the satellite channels on "a trial" basis, which never really ended!

    As for your second question, yes Chorus NTL does still carry radio on its analogue system in Dublin at any rate. Who is still listening, I'm not sure.


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    #72
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Could UPC provide access to their networks to other competing services like that of Eircom and the EBS?


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    #73
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    icdg wrote: »
    As for your second question, yes Chorus NTL does still carry radio on its analogue system in Dublin at any rate. Who is still listening, I'm not sure.

    I how do you tune them in, do you do it through your TV or hook up your radio to the cable and how do you hook up your radio to cable, I have never seen a cable connection on a radio. ???

    I must look when I get home.


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    #74
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    icdg wrote: »
    The more technically minded might be able to elaborate. My immediate reaction is that they were probably looking for a justification to keep out the then infant satellite channels that were springing up. It seems quite too coincidental that the 6 "technically possible" channels equated exactly with the number of Irish and UK terrestrial channels on air at that time.

    Seems likely
    " It was argued that the reason why there were not more than 6 TV channels being shown at present was because DCS did not press for Ministerial permission for the transmission of satellite channels on cable. Because permission had not been given, the smaller companies elsewhere who were ready to show additional channels had been prevented from doing so."

    "DCS maintained that they would be able to make satellite channels available when Ministerial permission was give for them. It had not pressed for permission because it had not yet completed the installation of its new primary network and could not make additional channels available to all its subscribers. *"

    "*As we were finalising our report DCS announced that it had applied for permission to provide additional services on an experimental basis to the majority of Dublin Homes before the end of 1986"

    Seems like the major shareholder wanted to prevent the extra channels more than likely. :rolleyes:


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    #75
    zilog_jones
    Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    Band II FM radio was still available in Limerick earlier this year when I last checked, but many stations had gone silent. Not sure if they're phasing them out or just never maintain them properly.

    Superband/Hyperband (around 230-470 MHz) were widely used for extra analogue cable channels, especially the scrambled ones. I'm not sure when these frequencies became widely available on TV tuners. I think I recall some '70s sets not being able to receive them. UHF was never used for cable in Limerick AFAIK.
    I how do you tune them in, do you do it through your TV or hook up your radio to the cable and how do you hook up your radio to cable, I have never seen a cable connection on a radio. ???
    Well you need something with a FM radio tuner :) Some TVs (especially Philips sets) have radio functions, otherwise any radio will do. Many component hi-fis and separate tuners have coax sockets (usually inverted compared to what's on your TV, though they are often supplied with adaptors). If your radio doesn't you'll have to take the plug off your coax and connect it to whatever is available e.g. wire, telescopic aerial etc. If you're using a portable radio that uses the headphone wire as the aerial there'll be no feasible way of making a proper connection.


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    #76
    Antenna
    Registered Users Posts: 2,305 ✭✭✭Antenna


    Elmo wrote: »
    But back in 1998 did they pay Horizon or Chourus or CMI??? for access to their Microwave system?

    Why won't they pay for it?

    Originally TV3 wasn't going to have UHF transmission at all and was going to be cable and MMDS only (no terrestrial), with Minister Ray Burke making a 'must carry' requirement for TV3 on MMDS - so if they are 'must carrry', I assume they did not have to pay anything.

    Later the licence was changed so that TV3 could have UHF transmission, and eventually they got on air. However the 'must carry' of TV3 on MMDS still stood. It was probably of benefit to both parties in areas where TV3 had gaps in UHF coverage, as TV3 availability would have been a selling point of MMDS in areas with relays that carried RTE,TG4 but not TV3.


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    #77
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Antenna wrote: »
    However the 'must carry' of TV3 on MMDS still stood. It was probably of benefit to both parties in areas where TV3 had gaps in UHF coverage, as TV3 availability would have been a selling point of MMDS in areas with relays that carried RTE,TG4 but not TV3.

    I never heard that TV3 was only going to the Cable and MMDS based. Hence perhaps the reason why the Gov didn't approve any local channels at the time.

    I don't think TV3 would have been a selling point on MMDS back in 1990.

    However I did see a leaflet explaining MMDS and it did state that TV3 (or Ireland's 3rd channel) would be on MMDS.

    Anyway I am currently of the opinion that RTÉ, TV3 and TG4 should all pay for cable, sat and mmds FTA signals for Ireland just as they do for Terrestrial Television.

    How many of the MMDS areas didn't have a relay for TV3? How many relays don't have TV3. What did TV3 replace?


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    #78
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Antenna wrote: »
    Minister Ray Burke making a 'must carry' requirement for TV3 on MMDS -


    He was the best wasn't he :D


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    #79
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Must Carry doesn't mean free to Carry. In theory if there is a commercial advantage and a station is part of pay TV (Any station on Cable and RTE on Sky), the pay TV operator must pay the TV station.

    TV3, TG4, RTE should be paid for by UPC, just as they have to pay for BBC.

    A TV channel generally only pays for carriage if the Channel is FTA.

    So on DTT :
    :: PSB Muxes (FTA): The Channels Individually Pay RTENL for Carriage.

    :: PayTV Muxes: The PayTV operator pays RTENL for Carriage. The PayTV operator has to pay for ALL channels carried. Though channels that are FTA elsewhere are cheaper.


    A very small number of channels are "Free To Carry", such as BBC World News TV (which requires written Permission which will not be given for carriage within the UK).

    Cable, MMDS, Satellite, DTT Platforms/Channels
    "Must Carry": Means that a Platform must have it in basic package. Infers nothing about financial arrangement between Content owner and Platform Operator.

    "Pay TV": Means the viewer can't watch without correct subscription. Any other method of watching is Theft of Service. Other than a few countries and some Communal systems, Cable TV or MMDS are 100% PayTV even if some channels are not encrypted. In Ireland and UK you may not even connect to MMDS or Cable without a subscription.

    "Pay Per View"(PPV): Same as PayTV, but per programme/film/event payment.

    "Free To Air" (FTA): Means the viewer doesn't need a Subscription, special key, box or card.

    "Free To View" (FTA): Means the viewer doesn't need a PayTV subscription. However the Transmission is not FTA, the viewer needs a special key, box or card which is usually limited by Nationality (e.g. Swiss) or Geography (UK, Netherlands).


    The content on the Platform for the Operator can be:
    • Free To Carry. Neither pays either money if the Platform Operator wants it.
    • Basic Royalty based on Geographic coverage. Platform operator pays for Everything
    • Royalty based on approximate subscriber base. Platform operator pays for Everything
    • Percentage of actual Monthly or PPV subscription. Platform operator paysfor Everything
    • All of the Subscription to Channel. Channel pays Operator for Carriage, EPG, Encryption.
    • FTA (not on Cable/MMDS). Channel pays Operator for Carriage and optionally EPG if required.

    Thus BBC pays for Everything for UK, but for ROI customers, Sky pays BBC for "EPG"


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    #80
    chalkitdown
    Registered Users Posts: 691 ✭✭✭chalkitdown


    Elmo wrote: »
    He was the best wasn't he :D

    Ray Bourke issued the 'exclusive' license to Westward Cables for Limerick.


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    #81
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Was cable back in the day known as "piped tv" outside Waterford? Dunno when that phrase fell from use here but it has it seems.


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    #82
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,511 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    Guys, can we please not keep trying to get boards.ie sued. The individual in question was convicted only in relation to one particular offence and boards.ie is not a court of law, so please keep any other accusations which might result in a defamation claim out of your posts. Or I will have to close the thread.

    It should be noted that **all** cable licences were exclusive until the Director of Telecommunications Regulation (predecessor of Comreg) removed exclusivity from the 1999 digital licences in 2002, the exclusivity period would have ended in 2004 in any case. Those still on 1974 licences (only about 6 very small cable companies) still have exclusivity.


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    #83
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Was cable back in the day known as "piped tv"

    In Ireland yes (stupid expression but then so is "wireless cable")

    Even today one can occasionally hear people referring to "the pipe" or "the pipe system"
    I never heard that TV3 was only going to the Cable and MMDS based. Hence perhaps the reason why the Gov didn't approve any local channels at the time. I don't think TV3 would have been a selling point on MMDS back in 1990.

    Insanely TV3 was originally to have been cable/MMDS only (and yes it was envisaged that it would be a selling point). It took a couple of years for the blindingly obvious to dawn on the Government (and TV3's investors) but eventually it was realised that (under the economics of the time) they didnt have a hope without UHF transmission as well.

    Yet oddly once the government agreed to this the (now largely redundant) "must carry" clause in the MMDS licences remained. One of the three other applicants for the licence then threatened to sue the government if the franchise wasnt readvertised (There were originally four applicants but three of them withdrew over the lack of UHF allocations. Eventually having won the licence TV3 threatened to follow suit) Dont know what (if anything) came of this ?

    Prior to the Government deciding to award a National licence a couple of groups made (unsolicited) expressions of interest in a Dublin only service believing that a national service was not viable (which in the economic circumstances of 1987/88 may well have been the case ?)


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    #84
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    chalkitdown wrote: »
    Ray Bourke issued the 'exclusive' license to Westward Cables for Limerick.

    Brilliant man all the same (note my sarcastic tone). And that all cable/MMDS companies had a monopoly in their areas in any case so there was little he could have done. Before I am accused of any libable about sarcastically calling him Brilliant*

    *My post are my opinion they may often not be based on fact in the same way as columnist in publications may also be only giving an opinion that does not reflect the character of the organisation that publishes them. I suspect that many of my posts views are not held by any organisation called boards.ie


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    #85
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Yet oddly once the government agreed to this the (now largely redundant) "must carry" clause in the MMDS licences remained. One of the three other applicants for the licence then threatened to sue the government if the franchise wasnt readvertised (There were originally four applicants but three of them withdrew over the lack of UHF allocations. Eventually having won the licence TV3 threatened to follow suit) Dont know what (if anything) came of this ?

    No wonder UTV withdrew from the TV3 consortium they would have been in direct competition with themselves, I never understood why they turn down the application but now it makes more sense now. But the other applicates possible have a case against the government since the winners of the licence ended up on FTA UHF.


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    #86
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    mike65 wrote: »
    Was cable back in the day known as "piped tv" outside Waterford? Dunno when that phrase fell from use here but it has it seems.

    Used in the UK also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_TV#United_Kingdom


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    #87
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,511 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    Elmo wrote: »
    When did NI get cable?

    Very late in the whole scheme of things - the ITC granted the licence to CableTel (Northern Ireland) Limited in 1995, a subsidary of International CableTel Inc - the company that would become NTL.

    Here's an article from the the time CableTel began its service.

    http://www.thefreelibrary.com/International+CableTel+Incorporated+announces+commencement+of+cable...-a018375691

    It would be another three years before CableTel would change its name to an initalism of the name of its television transmission subsidary, National Transcommunications Limited which it also acquired in 1996.


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    #88
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    icdg wrote: »
    Very late in the whole scheme of things - the ITC granted the licence to CableTel (Northern Ireland) Limited in 1995, a subsidary of International CableTel Inc - the company that would become NTL.

    Here's an article from the the time CableTel began its service.

    http://www.thefreelibrary.com/International+CableTel+Incorporated+announces+commencement+of+cable...-a018375691

    It would be another three years before CableTel would change its name to an initalism of the name of its television transmission subsidary, National Transcommunications Limited which it also acquired in 1996.

    What got me reading some of the stuff I read, was that in ROI it didn't seem as though any of the cable companies had licence in the 1960s, OK RTÉ Relays was asked to provide cable to Ballymun but the rest of them seemed to actually be CATV (Community Antenna Television) in the early years. And some of the illegal distributors in the late 1990s seemed to be about a Co-op between communities.

    Did anyone in Derry or Belfast set up CATV? in the early years.


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    #89
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    In Dublin the early cable operators may not have needed licences as it was only required if one served more than a few thousand households. Thats one of the reasons why cable in Dublin was originally served by a myriad of small locally owned networks which gradually became licenced expanded and merged with other companies.

    Outside of Dublin many of the deflectors (and indeed some of the smaller cable operators -at least initially) were set up by community groups but not all. For example some were set up by TV dealers hoping to profit from the sale of aerials, second TV's etc that they hoped would result.
    Did anyone in Derry or Belfast set up CATV? in the early years.
    Quite frankly I could see anyone who attempted to do so at the time being faced with some difficulties and in the case of the former there wouldnt have been much point since (AFaiK) anyone who wanted had access to all the Irish and UK terrestrials (albeit maybe with the need for a dual standard TV) pretty early on anyway.


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    #90
    zilog_jones
    Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    Were there any deflectors around in the west before they started cabling Cork, Limerick, etc.? Or was it really a case of having a TV for just Bog 1 and Bog 2 (and the occasional TVE 2 :) )?


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    #91
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    zilog_jones wrote: »
    Were there any deflectors around in the west before they started cabling Cork, Limerick, etc.? Or was it really a case of having a TV for just Bog 1 and Bog 2 (and the occasional TVE 2 :) )?

    If by Bog 1 and 2 you mean RTE 1 and 2, I grew up in Dublin in 2 TV land. As for TVE did we get signals from Spain? What about France?


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