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Gas boiler Operating.

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Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    knighted_1 wrote: »
    well i did try - either he trained me wrong or you are right - you tell me which
    i dont doubt your skill set but not gas rating a condensor boiler is wrong and if you ask him you could clear up weather i am wrong and you are right -

    You are doing a ajustment outside of manufactures instructions, there is a good chance you will be going below 19 mbar working pressure, you are setting the boiler by keeping it firing high when it would modulating down due to the over juiced gas, as a manufactures tech I have never had a problem with over cooked boilers but that doesn't mean it's not a problem and my training as a British Gas engineer means I look at gas rating differently.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    knighted_1 wrote: »
    clear up weather i am wrong and you are right -
    I don't see it as a competition and I don't pretend to have all the answers, everydays a learning day.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    knighted_1 wrote: »
    well i did try - either he trained me wrong or you are right - you tell me which
    i dont doubt your skill set but not gas rating a condensor boiler is wrong and if you ask him you could clear up weather i am wrong and you are right -

    Theres no rating on new condenser boilers ,on some condensers that are a couple of years old you have to adjust the gas valve slightly on low fire and high fire.
    And only if the C02% is out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭knighted_1


    i apoligise if i came across wrong .that wasnt my intention -share the knowledge
    it is the only part of manufacturers specs that is actually wrong (in this country nowhere else ) as our calorific value is much higher than the uk we at 11.39 - uk is 9.2 ? - if you do the equation on kw divided by m3 of gas you will end up with a figure very close to the uk calorific value - if you do same equation for ireland you will find that we are overfiring by 15 to 25 per cent because of the 11.39 figure - manufacturers state you can overfire by plus or minus 5 per cent

    if we over fire by this much we put the co levels much higher than manufacturers allow so in theory we must throttle down to get the levels correct and safe - this can be done with the analyser connected and just adjust - there is no problem running a boiler on 12 or 13 milibar as that is quite normal ,once there is 20 milibar standing presure (regulations) - we cant measure other side of a zero rated valve and thats where a lot of confusion takes place with installers ,they think the boiler gas adjustments itself ,but it doesnt .
    this is where the IS 813 regs come in section 15.1 about gas rating all appliances .installers are leaving potentially letal installs in houses if they dont gas rate and analyse during the commissioning of a new install
    :(
    again i apoligise if i came across bad ,but i try hard to keep my standards extremly high and prob have a bit of a communication problem


  • Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    Lads keep it civil.

    If we can't talk like professionals don't bother posting here. This isn't a pissing contest.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    I test every boiler I install ,check combustion and gas rates and even the flow and return temperature. I've been filling out the log books for the last couple of years ,so you have to take all these readings.

    I've yet to see any boiler fire outside the manufacturers specifications when fired up for the first time.

    The problems only arise when the boiler has been in use for a couple of years ,because the co2 can increase and dirty up the boiler and this is when they need to be serviced intrusively.
    If the C02 rates are intact ,it's almost certain that the boiler is clean inside. Otherwise the gas valve should be adjusted and guaranteeing the boiler runs clean.

    It's important to inspect a condenser every year for combustion ratio ,make sure it doesn't start getting dirty.


  • Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    About the gas rating. I would gas rate every appliance that I look at.

    In fact, on the RGI inspections that have been carried out on me, I have been asked to gas rate the appliances, one was a condensing boiler.

    Another point, until consumer awareness increases, good installers will suffer. We power flush as standard and I have often tried to push a boiler buddy or similar on to clients. Power flushing means we take more time than most to change a boiler, approx a day longer.

    doing things right means extra €€€'s. Unless you have a client in the know, it can be very hard to sell.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Another point, until consumer awareness increases, good installers will suffer. We power flush as standard and I have often tried to push a boiler buddy or similar on to clients. Power flushing means we take more time than most to change a boiler, approx a day longer.

    Micky powerflushing is not needed for a lot of heating systems ,chemically cleaning is adequate and have been told that ourselves by more than one manufacturer.

    Theres no need for magna cleans and all them other gadgets if the system is operating properly.

    In case anyone wants to criticise me for saying that ,our company is known to be one of the biggest buyer of cleaners and chemicals and have been for years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    Micky powerflushing is not needed for a lot of heating systems ,chemically cleaning is adequate and have been told that ourselves by more than one manufacturer.

    Theres no need for magna cleans and all them other gadgets if the system is operating properly.

    In case anyone wants to criticise me for saying that ,our company is known to be one of the biggest buyer of cleaners and chemicals and have been for years.


    I am not criticising you.

    In my experience nearly all system need a good clean because inhibitor was rarely used here, up until recently. Most retrospect installations are on systems 10 years and older.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    I am not criticising you.

    In my experience nearly all system need a good clean because inhibitor was rarely used here, up until recently. Most retrospect installations are on systems 10 years and older.

    It's funny you should say that ,i was cleaning out our stores lately and found an ancient container of inhibitor, it must have been over twenthy years old:D


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Correct burner pressure or correct co2 setting = correct gas rate, I use gas rating as proof of what I already know from testing it's a tool, not a necessitie,
    nothing less than 19mbar at the appliance working pressure 1 mbar drop allowed, there is no problem getting the correct co2 at the correct working pressure and your on your own ajusting boilers in away not reconised by the manufactures ie. me, you reduce the gas to a low working pressure then any igniton issues you be fixing because I'll be looking for more gas before I get involved, Viessmann work at 11mbar working pressure allday everyday and that's the main boiler Martin has worked on the other is mine and I would be telling him the same thing, lastly no need to apolagise, gas fitting comes done to opinions and we all have one


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    RGI inspections .

    Inspections me arse, they thought I was dangerous.


  • Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    gary71 wrote: »
    Inspections me arse, they thought I was dangerous.


    :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    Thank you folks.... I have learned nothing....


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    Hi Folks...

    Changed the title of the thread.... You are free to discuss boiler operating....etc...

    Enjoy.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭knighted_1


    gary71 wrote: »
    Correct burner pressure or correct co2 setting = correct gas rate, I use gas rating as proof of what I already know from testing it's a tool, not a necessitie,
    nothing less than 19mbar at the appliance working pressure 1 mbar drop allowed, there is no problem getting the correct co2 at the correct working pressure and your on your own ajusting boilers in away not reconised by the manufactures ie. me, you reduce the gas to a low working pressure then any igniton issues you be fixing because I'll be looking for more gas before I get involved, Viessmann work at 11mbar working pressure allday everyday and that's the main boiler Martin has worked on the other is mine and I would be telling him the same thing, lastly no need to apolagise, gas fitting comes done to opinions and we all have one

    you see this is the thing ,a gas rate is required by law now .if as suggested earlier that someone hangs a boiler and fires it up i gaurantee it will be overfiring if someone wants to post a boiler make and kw and the manufacturers stated m3ph i will do the calculation and show you how its overfiring -


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    knighted_1 wrote: »
    you see this is the thing ,a gas rate is required by law now -
    your right
    knighted_1 wrote: »
    if as suggested earlier that someone hangs a boiler and fires it up i gaurantee it will be overfiring -
    based on what studies, what are your gas qualification(apart from GID) and what have you studied to come to this opinion(apart from Mr Hogan).


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,789 ✭✭✭slavetothegrind


    http://www.ferroli.co.uk/Product_Documentation/Domestic/Optimax_HE_18_S_Manual.pdf

    in the case of the above boiler, you install it and check you have the required 20mb at the inlet. no further adjustment of gas pressure is allowed as the valve is sealed.
    how do you propose to correct the overfire situation you believe to exist here?

    me up for learning:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    http://www.ferroli.co.uk/Product_Documentation/Domestic/Optimax_HE_18_S_Manual.pdf

    in the case of the above boiler, you install it and check you have the required 20mb at the inlet. no further adjustment of gas pressure is allowed as the valve is sealed.
    how do you propose to correct the overfire situation you believe to exist here?

    me up for learning:D


    The baxi solo HE is the same, and there are a few others where there is no adjustment. If you find a problem with appliance firing etc when commissioning it, you would have to make a service call.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The baxi solo HE is the same, and there are a few others where there is no adjustment. If you find a problem with appliance firing etc when commissioning it, you would have to make a service call.

    Don't go mixing up a real ignition or combustion issue with a made up over firing issue.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    gary71 wrote: »
    Don't go mixing up a real ignition or combustion issue with a made up over firing issue.


    I mean, if co2 readings are out or gas rate too high or low.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Here are some facts:

    1) The higher the C.V the more a supplier can charge:eek:(so ours is high because?)

    2) A gas boiler shall be gas rated on commissioning.

    3) you can only commission asper the manufactures instructions and none allow for the adjustment of the gas isolation valve

    5) you can't adjust the gas rate on a condensing boiler other than the adjustment allowed by the manufactures on some gas valves to set correct co2. adjusting the gas inlet valve may put the working pressure at the appliance below the required amount specified in IS813 5.4.5.

    6) The manufactures write different instructions for different countries so the values can change in the manuals although the boilers stay pretty much the same.

    7) To date in this country no gas boiler made by my firm has had a issue with the high CV given by Bord Gais.

    8) When designing and making appliances, manufactures use the European average calorific value which is 10.8 kWh/m3 as a starting point and not the UK CV value.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    gary71 wrote: »
    Here are some facts:

    1) The higher the C.V the more a supplier can charge:eek:(so ours is high because?)

    2) A gas boiler shall be gas rated on commissioning.

    3) you can only commission asper the manufactures instructions and none allow for the adjustment of the gas isolation valve

    5) you can't adjust the gas rate on a condensing boiler other than the adjustment allowed by the manufactures on some gas valves to set correct co2. adjusting the gas inlet valve may put the working pressure at the appliance below the required amount specified in IS813 5.4.5.

    6) The manufactures write different instructions for different countries so the values can change in the manuals although the boilers stay pretty much the same.

    7) To date in this country no gas boiler made by my firm has had a issue with the high CV given by Bord Gais.

    8) When designing and making appliances, manufactures use the European average calorific value which is 10.8 kWh/m3 and not the UK CV value.


    This is why i orig closed the thread. No 3 was my understanding...

    ps... you forgot 4.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This is why i orig closed the thread. No 3 was my understanding...

    ps... you forgot 4.

    Fact number 4) I'm sh1t with numbers:o


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭JohnnieK


    Hi Folks...

    Wondered if you can help. Was asked a question today i have not been asked in a while... Brother has a gas boiler thats 15 years old and sounds like its just about to set down...A couple of leaks...heatexchanger pump... etc...

    Anyway traditionally what i would have done there is supply a boiler with a cast iron heat exchanger somethine like a suprima or a glowworm. You know why..the dirt etc...

    Just wondering since condensing boilers have come in the standard seems to be aluminium heat exchangers which off course is prone to blocking...or are they...


    The simple question i am asking is...what is now supplied for the retrofitting of a boiler...is it a condensing one with a fabricated heat exhanger and a serious system flush or is it something else...

    Many thanks for parting with the knowledge....

    A stainless steel heat exchanger is the only way to go Joey. The best corrosion resistance, and minimizes deposit build up due to having a smooth surface.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    JohnnieK wrote: »
    A stainless steel heat exchanger is the only way to go Joey. The best corrosion resistance, and minimizes deposit build up due to having a smooth surface.

    I like that but are they interchangable.. For example if i buy a make of boiler can i go off and buy a stainless steel heat exchanger.


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