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Solar Install; the on-going saga

17810121317

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,638 ✭✭✭moodrater


    What with the relative mode on the 87?


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Well spotted, I was just zero-ing the meter it was reading 4mA open circuit with the meter tied to the charger iirc.
    Seeing as you asked the Trimetric is ~30mA high of cal too (that's my wiring's fault though not the unit).

    The 87 auto-powered off a few times while I was watching it, I didn't delta it for the rest of the results, the Victron is still 58% up to 14.1V.


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    PWMHigh_zps1613e1ac.jpg

    Winter Absorption


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Updated figures.
    The alternator is starting to pick up the slack these days and fudging the numbers. Haven't been forced into premature dock yet though.

    Ah_zps3b71e791.jpg

    Ah Daily


    Voltage_zpse6fb78cd.jpg

    Voltage Daily


    MainsChargerrefit_zps90a3da33.jpg

    Mains Chargers Refitted.
    The upper middle is a cheapo Chinese "GopherT" ran into the TS on solar inputs via C/O as it's predecessor. Current limited (5A) 32v variable power supply. It's a neat little do-fer. Passive cooling, seems well able to manage full load. Low noise, I can tune out the buzz that was previously plaguing me. It's non-existent under 17V. I kept the frankinductor because it makes a great battery restraint and it'll smooth the ripple.

    The GopherT is my high float, load compensating to 5A, Winter equalising box and emergency back-up/universal transformer. I'm well happy with it. (Don't worry I'll post pics if this goes down in another smoldering death :pac:).
    Coincidentally it hits the current limit at a perfect equalising and float set point voltages in stand-alone, compensating for diode drop (on positive lead to protect the output from the battery just in case). Efficiency listed 88%, actual 50% @17v, through the tristar, schottky diode and frankinductor; ~20% when switching. :o

    The Victron not so much, I'm just using it for bulk & absorption charge. Sure, storage mode is great, but not when it goes into it at 25% DOD (probably my own meddlesome fault in fairness....whistling.gif)
    A 5A + 15A charger does not make a 20A charger, one just interferes with thuther and screws up the absorption timers on both. Especially when the set points and temp-comp. are different.

    I did a bit of experimenting on combining chargers, after 3 weeks on mostly just PV and flirting with 40% DOD....it doesn't work. Everything I had was signing off on a job well done at SG 1.225 per cell after all the confusion. In the end I had to run the PSU; diode protected, current limit 2.5A and voltage @ 14.9v for 12 hours straight to battery without the TS regulating after all my chargers had had enough, this earned me SG 1.250 then a 4 hour TS equalise and a day's high float to get 3 cells up to 1.275, I expect the rest to make up the 0.015 difference after another 3 days floating and I reckon I've boiled off a litre of electrolyte. I'm no longer concerned with short-cycling...the blighters are never bloomin' charged anyways. :rolleyes:

    I need to tidy that mess a bit more, It's getting to the point I ought to be considering some heavy trunking. I also need to refit the 230v outlet for a double socket.

    I've hard-wired my inverter on 42mm² conductors (just cos I had it not that I needed to) with crimped ring termination instead of the stock 8mm² on croc. clips now that I have a use for it (fridge). I just don't like croc. clips for contact surface area or their spring grip for a mobile application. I've a set of jump leads that I've cut the croc's off and stripped back the conductor so I put the stranded conductor straight onto the battery terminals and use the croc. clip to hold it in place. Learned that from an arc welder.

    All the cable that came with the Chinese jobbie was junk. Australian plug with an everything-in-the-world to UK BS adapter that was too small for BS sockets and the contacts looked glued on besides. The DC leads were 0.4mm²
    Never got around to re-capping it either...might-do down the line. 7 CapXon and 6 SamXon...worst capacitors in the world I hear. I'd rather swap for better.
    moodrater wrote: »
    You'd get a quality used 750w-1000w gaming psu for very little on ebay. I have one here that will put out 100A on 12v rail for quad graphics cards; at 45A it wouldn't even break a sweat cost £35.

    I figured this one out. Two identical 300W current limited PSU's in series with the earth lifted on the second and the casing earthed to the first and isolated from the second would do the job as a 24V 25A supply.


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    SG 1.275 per cell! extra_happy.gif

    From 25% DOD after 3.5 weeks regular service.

    After:
    • Victron "recondition" charge; two cycles 14.6v - 15v
    • Aldi charger cold cycle; 14.7v-ish
    • Constant Current, 12 hours; 2A @ 14.9v
    • Tristar Float, 6 hours; 13.5v
    • TriStar Equalise, 4 hours; 15.5v
    • Tristar PV Float, 3 days; 13.5v (absorption @14.8v)

    6 days all told.
    200mL Distilled water replaced (de-ionised would be better..too late now...oops! :o)

    On relatively new batteries with a low internal resistance!
    And yet the whole industry is concerned about overcharge and churning out "maintenance free" sealed batteries with 14.4v charge recommendations! :rolleyes:


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  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    15280_f2dfdfd0be8913f840cd1cc2763c5999_large.jpg



    TempDaily_zps2a20a3d4.jpg

    Battery Temperature


    TempDe-Rate_zps69c19a68.jpg

    Temperature De-Rating

    Capacity_zps5c741358.jpg

    Relative Capacity 5Ah Discharge Curve


    Battery-level.jpg

    :o

    Ambient 12°C = 15% De-rate
    Overwatering = 10% De-rate
    48Hr rate = 255Ah
    255 x 0.75 = 190Ah
    190 @ C48

    180Ah Aprox. Relative Capacity


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    BankVoltage_zps9ae48847.jpg

    Voltage Min/Max


    AhDaily_zps986e8663.jpg

    Ah Daily (rough guide)


    AbsorptionDaily_zpsbee143ba.jpg

    Absorption Daily (there is nothing wrong with this graph, one week 100% bulk charge only)


    TriStarStateNov_zps32b8a456.jpg

    State Reading (gassing off excess electrolyte)

    Winter Alternator regulator fitted. 15.1V unloaded :D:D, 14.4v @ starter charging house bank or dipped lights.

    PV has fallen to trickle. Fog doesn't help at all really.

    The alternator efficiency increase at low bank holding voltage seems to mean that if the bank lives at the wrong side of 12.3v the alternator can semi-indefinately keep the bank ticking over. It can produce 20A at the house bank on a good day; ~ 15 mins driving = 1 hour @ C48.
    Problem with that is that's where the sulphates live.

    I disabled my weekly full charge reminder, telling me what I already deduced and charging me 2.3Wh a day for the service.


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    CCPSU_zps1b7b635c.jpg?t=1416527033

    Current Limited PSU hard at work.

    Floating TriStar and running lighting.


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Ingredients:
    • SmartBank Standard

    PWMDefeat_zps85ff873b.jpg

    Orange jumper wire is the powersave defeat. From the factory it's made to PWM the relay coil for half power but it's a horrid electric buzz best do without. wackoold.gif
    It also has trouble holding teeny tiny relay coils without the jumper. Standard automotive relays and upwards it handles fine.

    • A Relay:
    Relays_zps3b3335b8.jpg

    Take your pick.


    • Fuses & holder:
    Fusebox4way_zpsf1337f31.jpg



    • Wires.


    I'm going with the teeniest relay I can find that will handle my PV "full load" current to the starter battery.
    A latching relay is the best solution in terms of power saving; it just takes a pulse to turn on and a reverse polarity pulse to turn off...at the moment automating this is a little beyond me. So the next contender is a low current coil.

    Normal setup is let the SmartBank do everything with a big relay that'll handle whatever you throw at it but that'd mean no PV charge from November to March as the coil will just gobble every photon it sees.

    So using a 10A relay I have to isolate it from my alternator and big stoopid Victron.
    Another reason I don't want standard fitment is I'm using my solar controller to turn my alternator constant voltage charge into a 3 stage charger at the house bank and that's the way I like it.

    I got myself a PCB relay that's a bittov an oddball because it's got 8A written on it but any datasheet I find says it's a 5A. :confused:
    Anyways it's a DPDT (double changeover) relay that I've linked the terminals for more conductivity as a SPDT (changeover with the normal closed side not wired so....make and break)...hopefully that's my 10A covered. If it melts I'll put a bigger 'un in there.
    Relayboard_zps6b4fdfe3.jpg

    Relay Antics


    The alternator/mains charger isolation I'm just going to handle with a clunkin' DPST on/off switch and hopefully remember to turn it off...if I don't then that's what the fuses are for.


    This is an addendum to this wiring doc
    WiringDiagram_zpseea39fe2.jpg

    Passed the bench test with flying colours, I'm only losing 0.05A to power the coil. There's about 0.2V drop between the batteries but most of the cable I was using is very light so I can probably redeem this on the install..if not it's no great loss, it is a trickle charger after all.
    CallibrationChart_zps8e56bba3.jpg

    The rest of my split charging is reasonably intelligent already.
    Mains: 2 x auto-starting mains chargers. PSU + TriStar on deep cycles, and Victron on starter battery.
    Alternator: Me...manual.


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Other news: Trimetric SOC is finally calibrated. :pac: ...years after installing it.
    It's only out by ±8Ah after a week. I've set the auto reset off.
    Efficiency: 100% (actually batteries are ~85% efficient and discharge is ~C100/C50...it works out).
    Capacity: 85% (-weather, -too much water, +reduced discharge curve).
    It's also subtracting 5Ah a week that aren't actually used due to to disputing conductors.


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  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    I had about a meter and a bit of 95mm² conductor leftover from my deep cycle link lead. (Previously I have said it was 113mm² because I measured it...low and behold it has 95mm² written on it).

    I decided that was better in the motor than the workshop so I made a battery cable outtov it. The 13mm² I had previously was under-rated and choking the alternator charge current.

    So yes I know how to crimp lugs properly with correct sized lugs, a proper job crimper, flux, plumbing solder and a blow-torch...However I have the wrong sized lugs (50mm²), a 125watt soldering iron a hammer and a vice....and yes if I had any intention of putting anywhere near 100 amps down this I would do it right...
    ...meanwhile....
    New B2B Conductor

    95mm%202%2050mm%20Crimp_zps0bnycahq.jpg


    B2B%20conductor_zpskjz4k086.jpg


    Cap%20%20Stud_zpshugtkzhh.jpg



    B2B connections

    Stud%201_zpsuwkxhfvl.jpg


    Stud%202_zpskuiy8asb.jpg

    Work in progress photos.

    That Fuse holder is secured now and the rest of the conductors have been re-crimped onto the same termination point at the battery clamp. Don't mind that discolouration, it's just waxoyl, thought it'd be a good idea do the entire chassis internals in it...possibly not. The Passenger seat usually does a good job hiding it. Those white bands are what the leky tape pulled off.
    SB%20Fitment_zpsumvd1duf.jpg

    Smartbank Fitment

    There's a bit to this alright, I was about 5 hours mostly stripping and crimping.
    I've done a line test but haven't fired it up yet. The Victron and the deep cycles are indoors on sabbatical, and having their health check ups.
    I'll be refitting them tomorrow and I'll check all is well with the rest.
    ...right after I reinstall all my conduit, trunking and cable relief that I removed for the photos...whistling.gif


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Didn't get to see the split charger working today, ran out of photons before I had a chance to power up. My shunt was giving me grief probably from loom manhandling. Claiming I had a 7A load on with the system offline. So I pulled it apart and gave it whatfor. Removed the kelvin connections, put new ring terminals on them with solder + crimp, hit the shunt with a wire wheel and ground the ring terminals down to the copper. 15mA high of cal. now. :cool:
    Dual%20Banks_zpsvwaiu8un.jpg

    Batteries refitted and awaiting photons to test the SmartBank in the morning.

    Ten days I've had the deep cycles on the Victron. S.G.: 1.260. It's not a patch on the TriStar I tells ya. shaking%20fist.png

    I've a weak cell in my crowns. :(
    One's always 0.010 SG below the rest.


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Working a treat. 0.1V drop between batteries @ float (naff all current).


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Home%20Sweet%20Home_zps8sjbqykk.jpg

    Home Sweet Home
    hysteria.gif
    That looked filthy in the workshop...cleanest part of my engine.


    Old%20Versus%20Old_zpsi01d9npl.jpg

    Old versus Old.

    Business end of things.


    D%20Adapter_zpsoqjuxycc.jpg

    D+ adapter in High Temperature Sleeve.

    (ring terminal to spade)

    Instructions:

    • Take off alternator, put new one on, simples. ;)
    • Adjust belt as required...In my case with an automatic adjuster I just used a shorter one I have in the roadside repair drawer. Check service manual for tension setting. If it squeaks the alignment is out or there's a bad bearing in the mix.
    • Reconnect all electrical connections before starting engine.


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    The B+ needs upgrading with the alternator lest one exceed the cable's rated ampacity and start a fire. You can find tables usually by cable manufacturers online that will give you the current carrying capacity of conductors. None of them agree so find your comfortable line of best fit and some extra copper never goes astray on low voltage.

    There's a few ways to make battery cables. I'd recommend a hexagonal die crimper but I'm not splashing out €100 for one any time soon.
    The next best is hammer crimping and solder.
    250A%20Relay%20%20sundries_zpsjze1yohk.jpg

    Ingredients:
    • Flux
    • Heavy Solder
    • Insulating Rubber Ends
    • Cable lugs (rated cable square surface area - hole diameter, eg: 35 - 8 = 35mm² & M8 hole.
    • Heat Shrink (not shown)


    Conduit_zps6f5k31lq.jpg

    Conduit
    Flexible, High Temperature, Flame Proof, Oil Resistant.


    Conductor_zpsrbeynjrx.jpg

    Conductor


    Soldering%20Iron_zps1mmm8n3f.jpg

    Tools you will need:
    • High Temperature Soldering Station

    • Vice Grips
    • Hammer
    • Punch



    So this is my method, I'm not going to say this is the right method, because it's not, hex crimping would be.

    Insulating%20Cable_zpsjivvgooa.jpg
    • Strip conductor ends.
    • Coat in flux.
    • Impregnate copper strands with cold fluxed solder strands.
    • Attach cable lug.
    • Pinch in vice/grips.
    • Smack with rounded punch on rounded surface (or buy a hammer crimp).
    • Heat the bejaysus outtov it.
    • Fill bucket with flux dipped solder.
    • Allow to air cool.
    • Clean off flux residue.
    • Heat shrink ends.
    • Place in conduit.
    • Insulate.
    Replace B+ to battery.
    Mine just went to the starter motor in the end so that's the only section I upgraded here, my battery leads are already ample for the task after this and the stock circuits to the fuse box and loads are also fine as these demands will not change.
    Looms_zpsvqeyv8xf.jpg

    New & Old Loom

    One set of conduit is my new B+, The other is the old. The D+ I popped out of the holder, connected to my adapter, triple heat shrink layer and wrapped in conduit. The insulated box is my old connector with my old B+ ready for an emergency alternator swap.

    Common sense dictates the new loom path, the clue is in following the old. Avoid the exhaust manifold, spiney things, hot things, cable tie where you can, do not stress other fuel lines, electrics, plumbing etc.
    Try not to put it in a way that makes it difficult to service the vehicle down the line. Leave slack on both ends but tie it up so that you have room to work should you need to move it.


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Now I just needed to upgrade my split charge relay and grounds. Grounds are easy enough one for the 0V deep cycle bank terminal to shunt and the other shunt to chassis.
    Most of the rest of the job was done by my 95mm² leftovers. All I had to do is go from the end of the B2B link into a new upgraded relay and across to my deep cycles.
    For now I've upgraded the B2B fuse for a 80A from the spares drawer. If I need bigger later I'll go bigger later.
    The primary PWM split charge relay circuit via solar controller is still a humble 40A and is current limited by MCB.

    The secondary is big and dumb: battery to battery.
    In the end I couldn't commit my 250A relay...that thing is a monster...15W coil!! My laptop uses less on a good day..ahem well maybe not..but close!

    Next contender is that lervely 200A latching relay.
    Permanent magnets, fires like an unloaded gun. Pulse on, reverse polarity pulse off.
    Uses less lekytrons than my piddling 10A relay.
    This calls for a DPDT Momentary Switch!
    • Up: On (closed)
    • Mid: Open
    • Down: Off (closed, reversed polarity)

    Latching%20relay%20control_zpsq73fvwfy.jpg?t=1427490607

    It looks more complicated than it is.


    DPDT%20Switch_zpsfotrqrks.jpg

    Bench test.

    Power from left, relay to right.


    Relay%20Home_zpsvcxnougu.jpg

    Installed


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    0.1V drop between batteries @ float.

    It's not voltage drop, engine battery was charging. I'll post full load drop when I know it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,797 ✭✭✭Kevin McCloud


    It's not voltage drop, engine battery was charging. I'll post full load drop when I know it.

    You realise you are arguing with yourself?


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Cwaor I'm loving my new alternator. Dropped batteries to 35% DOD (-70Ah). Few hours sun and 2.5 hours driving; 95% SOC with a 120W load running.

    Unfortunately I haven't got any test equipment that'll range µΩ. So this is a bit speculative but surprisingly accurate all the same.
    The Trimetric is claiming 100mV > 200mV drop on my B2B conductor with a 30A (425W) load.

    Here's the argument for Y-ing off the alternator...direct route with less connections or simply going Alternator -> deep cycles -> starter battery.

    Counting the connections:
    • Starter Battery post to battery clamp: 1
    • Starter Battery clamp to inline fuse crimp: 2
    • Inline Fuse crimp to cable: 3
    • Maxi blade fuse holder contacts x2: 5
    • Inline fuse cable to crimp: 6
    • Inline fuse crimp to stud: 7
    • B2B Stud to Lug: 8
    • B2B Lug to Cable x2: 10
    • B2B Lug to Stud: 11
    • Relay Cable Stud to Lug: 12
    • Relay Cable Lug to Cable x2: 14
    • Relay Cable Lug to Relay Stud: 15
    • Relay Stud to Contactor x2: 17
    • Relay Stud to Lug: 18
    • Relay Cable Lug to Cable: 19
    • Relay Cable to Deep Cycle Clamp: 20
    • Deep cycle clamp to post: 21

    Assuming a good connection has a contact resistance of 0.0002Ω
    0.2mΩ x 21 = 4.2mΩ

    Cable losses:
    • 12mm² fuse cable ~10cm: 0.01mΩ
    • 1.5m x 95mm²: 0.3mΩ
    • 2m x 35mm²: 1.0mΩ
    Total Cable losses = 0.00131Ω

    Cable losses + termination losses = 1.31mΩ + 4.2mΩ = 5.51mΩ

    V=IR 30A*5.51mΩ =
    0.16 Volt Drop

    = 5W in wasted heat

    14.4V (Alternator max) - 12.5V (battery charge acceptance threshold @50% DOD) = 1.9v charge acceptance range.
    .16 / 1.9 * 100 = 8.5% charge loss or higher again if factoring that charge is non-linear (roughly proportional to the square of the voltage difference).


    I haven't been using the system a whole lot lately so I've set the TriStar to the lowest preset charge set-points and every cell is sitting happy at SG 1.280 :)


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    :cool: Not bad for October. :cool:

    364351.JPG

    364473.jpg


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭crabbypaddy


    :cool: Not bad for October. :cool:
    Mad that's excellent, by the by where did you get the 200a latching relay I looked high and low for one of those a couple of years ago.

    [edit]I found a 250A one for cheap good old mercedes[/edit]
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Original-Mercedes-W212-E350-A0035421819-Relais-Modul-Steuergerat-/181819128511?hash=item2a5543babf


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Rolls Royce of Relays, P.
    Albrght relay with a Merlin Badge.
    That seller comes by them from time to time braking ambulances.

    datasheet


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Out of interest Liam how many wh are you getting this dreadful December.

    Looks like ~0Wh average P. :pac:

    373980.jpg

    It was more like 10Wh though. It's not just the off angle sun (well it is that actually but not because why yer thinkin') or short hours but the shading everywhere due to low sun angle so in the Urban even when the sun does shine I often miss it...in which case a cloudy day is better for a flat panel.

    You can observe the alternator input by the difference of depth of discharge and returned charge on mains. Kinda.. (overlay a Summer Ah graph and triple the lighting budget should be close ;))

    92W peak today at lunchtime up the mountains.
    2W peak yesterday in a fog almighty same mountain.

    Alternator has flashed 800W and holds a steady 250W at < 80% SOC. Battery living between 70% and 80% now.
    ~150mV drop with a 25A load across my battery to battery conductor.







    To read log file download MorningStar MSView here
    • Unzip Bumblebee2016.zip, extract bumblebee2016.csv (sorry had to zip it, Boards.ie doesn't like .csv files)
    • Install and Run MSView
    • Go to File -> Open Log -> point to bumblebee2016.csv
    • Go to Displays -> New -> historical graph
    • Expand bumblebee.csv in left hand menu for solar controller monitored parameters.
    • Drag and drop one or more parameter onto graph
    • Select graphed timeline on the lower x axis by shading the time to graph
    • To Remove parameters right click on graph -> properties -> highlight parameter -> remove.


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    6W flat mount this morning. 55W tilted 60°.

    Now that my window slides are a bit weathered they hold the module fine without clamps even in 3m/s wind.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭crabbypaddy


    6W flat mount this morning. 55W tilted 60°.

    Now that my window slides are a bit weathered they hold the module fine without clamps even in 3m/s wind.

    I see a a linear actuator in your future :D


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    I'm wise to your mischiefs P.
    a_stir_it_smiley.gif

    I've a 1.5kW array to stick on the gaff that's more pressing. :p

    The police crash response jeeps have an interesting LED sign deployment mechanism on their roof. :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭crabbypaddy


    The police crash response jeeps have an interesting LED sign deployment mechanism on their roof. :pac:

    I wouldn't even know where to start looking for something like that! In the shed yesterday I was thinking I could make one for free from an old scissor jack and an old drill the only issue would be keeping it greased.


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    It's only vital tilt for the cusps of Winter season and they're the ones most campers are indoors or only wanting trickle.

    vas6.jpg


  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    101.jpg_zpsgkeqw13b.jpg

    15 days since last hook-up


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  • Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    396675.jpg

    3yo PV panel still capable of full rated after 3 years (in ambient 15°C with a strong 6m/s breeze cooling it)



    396678.JPG

    TriMetric History log; Cumulative discharged Ah from battery over lifetime (x 1000).


    396676.jpg

    Battery still good as new and attaining SG 1.275p/c if left on an unprovoked TriStar for 3 weeks. I don't (need to) equalise this battery.
    [EDIT:] Current Deep Cycle #116 to 20% DOD #93 to 25% DOD


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