Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

RoundBox11 · 06-11-2012 7:04pm

bilston wrote: »

Dating back to November 2008 I came up with 29 new caps under Kidney.

Munster (11)
Keith Earls
Barry Murphy
Ian Dowling
Niall Ronan
Donnacha Ryan
Denis Hurley
Damien Varley
Felix Jones
Conor Murray
Peter O'Mahony
Simon Zebo

Leinster (8)
**Ian Keatley
Cian Healy
Jonathan Sexton
Sean O'Brien
Kevin McLaughlin
Rys Ruddock
Devin Toner
Fergus McFadden

Ulster (5)
Darren Cave
Ian Whitten
Ryan Caldwell
Dan Tuohy
Declan Fitzpatrick

Connacht (4)
John Muldoon
Sean Cronin
Mike McCarthy
Ronan Loughney

*Harlequins (1)
Mike Ross

Surprise surprise, mainly red jerseys in there. Some of whom are pretty ordinary too.

I wonder how many of Henderson, both Marshalls and Gilroy would be in the 23 this weekend if they played down south

Glass Prison 1214 · 06-11-2012 7:38pm

bilston wrote: »

Thjanks for that, I actually went through Irishrugby.ie to try and figure it out myself before I saw your post.

Dating back to November 2008 I came up with 29 new caps under Kidney.

Munster (11)
Keith Earls
Barry Murphy
Ian Dowling
Niall Ronan
Donnacha Ryan
Denis Hurley
Damien Varley
Felix Jones
Conor Murray
Peter O'Mahony
Simon Zebo

Leinster (8)
**Ian Keatley
Cian Healy
Jonathan Sexton
Sean O'Brien
Kevin McLaughlin
Rys Ruddock
Devin Toner
Fergus McFadden

Ulster (5)
Darren Cave
Ian Whitten
Ryan Caldwell
Dan Tuohy
Declan Fitzpatrick

Connacht (4)
John Muldoon
Sean Cronin
Mike McCarthy
Ronan Loughney

*Harlequins (1)
Mike Ross

*I think Ross hadn't officially joined Leinster when he was first capped?
** As far as I know Keatley joined Connacht at the start of the 2009/10 season so again he'd have been officially a Leinster player in 2009 when he made his debut...I think...

I don't think the above proves or disproves anything in terms of bias or not. Mind you looking at some of the names that hyave been capped you have to think that some average enough players have won caps in the last four years, although to be fair some of those would have won caps during the Lions tour in 2009.

You are forgetting Tom Court and Chris Henry from up north, also as far as im aware, Ian Keatley joined Connacht at the start of the 08/09 season, i could be wrong on that though.

bilston · 06-11-2012 7:44pm

jm08 wrote: »

Highlighted those that are missing from the list.

Here is a full list of Ireland caps and when they got them:

http://www.espnscrum.com/ireland/rugby/player/caps.html?team=3

Thanks. I could have sworn I'd included Henry! I didn't include Court because I thought for some reason that he'd made his debut back in the days of EOS. Not sure why I thought that.

I think the list shows that it's much of a muchness. I guess one might have thought there'd have been more Leinster debutants in the last four years but I don't think the figures are so significant that they illustrate a bias...just some bad selections...

Hagz · 06-11-2012 7:51pm

http://planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_8229083,00.html

Tox56 · 06-11-2012 7:52pm

bilston wrote: »

Thanks. I could have sworn I'd included Henry! I didn't include Court because I thought for some reason that he'd made his debut back in the days of EOS. Not sure why I thought that.

I think the list shows that it's much of a muchness. I guess one might have thought there'd have been more Leinster debutants in the last four years but I don't think the figures are so significant that they illustrate a bias...just some bad selections...

I don't think there's "bias" either, it would be career suicide for Kidney to try that, but when you consider what each of the provinces have achieved since November 2008, you wouldn't have thought Munster would be 3 ahead of everyone else on that list.

twinytwo · 06-11-2012 7:52pm

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Surprise surprise, mainly red jerseys in there. Some of whom are pretty ordinary too.

I wonder how many of Henderson, both Marshalls and Gilroy would be in the 23 this weekend if they played down south

Always manage to find something to moan about..... the "ordinary" players you refer to i assume are dowling 2 caps.. on 2009 tour of canada and usa... and the team was essentailly the A's,murphy 4 caps.. again 2009 tour plus two against the pumas, ronan 4 caps, 2 on the 2009 tour 1 v aus as a replacement for kev McLaughlin... and as i recall all our backrow options were knackerd and he played one of the wc warm up games against scotland??. and finally denis hurley 1 cap on the 2009 tour.

Hardly anything to boast about... but sure its clearly favoritisim:rolleyes:

Cpt_Blackbeard · 06-11-2012 7:59pm

Tox56 wrote: »

I don't think there's "bias" either, it would be career suicide for Kidney to try that, but when you consider what each of the provinces have achieved since November 2008, you wouldn't have thought Munster would be 3 ahead of everyone else on that list.

Didn't BOD have an interview after the NZ shambles where he said that some players have been more concerned with club rugby since 2009/grandslam. When you consider what each of the provinces have achieved since then, maybe that would explain why more Munster players have been capped under Kidney's reign.

Just thought I'd throw my tinfoil cap in the ring with the rest of them...

Tox56 · 06-11-2012 8:04pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Didn't BOD have an interview after the NZ shambles where he said that some players have been more concerned with club rugby since 2009/grandslam. When you consider what each of the provinces have achieved since then, maybe that would explain why more Munster players have been capped under Kidney's reign.

Just thought I'd throw my tinfoil cap in the ring with the rest of them...

What exactly are you suggesting? Munster players have more "pride for the jersey" or something?

Benny Cake · 06-11-2012 8:15pm

I honestly can't wait for Kidney to get the bullet. These pointless Kidney debates are almost on a par with the glory days of "O'Gara v Sexton"

errlloyd · 06-11-2012 8:49pm

twinytwo wrote: »

Hardly anything to boast about... but sure its clearly favoritisim:rolleyes:

Like what is your point here?

It wouldn't matter if they got these caps playing against the willow park under 10s, the point is that when Kidney had to pick his best team available in 2009, he picked a pile of really average Munster players against some clearly better options from other provinces.

Benny Cake · 06-11-2012 8:51pm

With all the Munster bias, how does one explain Kidneys hard-on for a catastrophically out of form Darcy & the always ordinary Paddy Wallace???

Grimebox · 06-11-2012 8:55pm

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Surprise surprise, mainly red jerseys in there. Some of whom are pretty ordinary too.

I wonder how many of Henderson, both Marshalls and Gilroy would be in the 23 this weekend if they played down south

Can this attitude ever **** off and die please

shuffol · 06-11-2012 8:55pm

Benny Cake wrote: »

With all the Munster bias, how does one explain Kidneys hard-on for a catastrophically out of form Darcy & the always ordinary Paddy Wallace???

Because Llafemi Mafi wasnt IQ??

twinytwo · 06-11-2012 9:00pm

errlloyd wrote: »

Like what is your point here?

It wouldn't matter if they got these caps playing against the willow park under 10s, the point is that when Kidney had to pick his best team available in 2009, he picked a pile of really average Munster players against some clearly better options from other provinces.

for the record, the team for the canada game for example was
1 Court
2 Best
3 Buckley
4 Casey
5 O'Driscoll
6 Muldoon
7 Ronan
8 Leamy
9 Stringer
10 Keatley
11 Dowling
12 Whitten
13 Cave
14 Murphy
15 Duffy

But yes the munster players were clearly the only ones chosen over better players:rolleyes:

jamiedav2011 · 06-11-2012 9:01pm

Grimebox wrote: »

Can this attitude ever **** off and die please

In fairness, it is a valid point.
Murray and Archer are prime examples.

jamiedav2011 · 06-11-2012 9:02pm

Benny Cake wrote: »

I honestly can't wait for Kidney to get the bullet. These pointless Kidney debates are almost on a par with the glory days of "O'Gara v Sexton"

I fully agree with that, as would most sane Irish rugby fans.
Watch though as we get three scrappy wins and he's the savior again.

irishbucsfan · 06-11-2012 9:12pm

errlloyd wrote: »

Like what is your point here?

It wouldn't matter if they got these caps playing against the willow park under 10s, the point is that when Kidney had to pick his best team available in 2009, he picked a pile of really average Munster players against some clearly better options from other provinces.

Considering Leinster were playing a Heineken Cup final during that tour, who did he ignore?

RoundBox11 · 06-11-2012 9:17pm

Grimebox wrote: »

Can this attitude ever **** off and die please

Solid contribution...

It's a perfectly valid point. How many Munster appearances do POM, Zebo, Murray and Archer have combined?

Sure POM, Murray and Zebo are good enough for test rugby now but they sure as hell weren't when they first got called up. Especially given the other players available. I have nothing against Munster. What i don't like is Kidney's special treatment of the Munster players.

Grimebox · 06-11-2012 10:24pm

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Solid contribution...

It's a perfectly valid point. How many Munster appearances do POM, Zebo, Murray and Archer have combined?

Sure POM, Murray and Zebo are good enough for test rugby now but they sure as hell weren't when they first got called up. Especially given the other players available. I have nothing against Munster. What i don't like is Kidney's special treatment of the Munster players.

Kidney happens to pick players that come from Munster, so what? Do you think its a conspiracy? What does Kidney have to gain from giving Munster players special treatment?

shuffol · 06-11-2012 10:52pm

Not meaning to fan the flames but can anybody name me a single Munster player who's been hard done by with regard to inernational recognition during Kidneys reign. I cant think of any myself.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 06-11-2012 11:04pm

shuffol wrote: »

Not meaning to fan the flames but can anybody name me a single Munster player who's been hard done by with regard to inernational recognition during Kidneys reign. I cant think of any myself.

Donnacha Ryan being behind DOC during last years 6 nations.

Personally I think Kidney is a Munster fan and watches more Munster matches than games from the other provinces so as soon as any Munster player is doing wel then Kidney knows about it while anyone else needs to bash him on the head with a hammer

molloyjh · 06-11-2012 11:23pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Doubt it. McFadden is a good utility player, but he has been pretty poor at international level.

Are you not the one who cites try scoring records as a reason to select a winger in a regular basis?

Earls: 26 starts, 12 tries
Zebo: 1 start, no tries
McFadden: 8 starts, 4 tries

McFadden has the better record there.

thomond2006 · 06-11-2012 11:26pm

shuffol wrote: »

Not meaning to fan the flames but can anybody name me a single Munster player who's been hard done by with regard to inernational recognition during Kidneys reign. I cant think of any myself.

TOL

...runs...

Cpt_Blackbeard · 06-11-2012 11:33pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Are you not the one who cites try scoring records as a reason to select a winger in a regular basis?

Earls: 26 starts, 12 tries
Zebo: 1 start, no tries
McFadden: 8 starts, 4 tries

McFadden has the better record there.

That would be a decent argument had McFadden not been responsible (partially at least) for the concession of tries in many of his starts for Ireland.

brinty · 06-11-2012 11:35pm

Jaysus i don't post for a few days and still the same old garbage....
FFS i'm sick up to my back teeth listening to this sh1t...
I hope we hammer the boks at the weekend and then destroy Fiji and Argetina and do a grand slam and shut people the hell up..but i doubt even if that happened people would still quibble..
Kidney can't do right or wrong with everyone on here...
If he picks a player he's wrong, if he leaves said player out he's wrong...FFS people he's picked the best players we have available....
From the original squad he picked 14 ulster and 12/13 leinster players and 9/10 munster players lads...but he still has a Munster bias..gimme a break
If he picks sexton as captain people will bitch and moan and say it should be Heaslip...and vice versa
If he puts jackson on the bench instead of O'gara and heaven forbid sexton is injured..we've a kid not playing senior rugby six months leading the team...get real...O'gara has to be on the bench
Murray will start because the boks have a huge backrow who will run over reddan and marshall
Would people try and be a bit reasonable and step back from their Kidney hating and actually look and see we have fup all alternatives..

irishbucsfan · 06-11-2012 11:36pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

That would be a decent argument had McFadden not been responsible (partially at least) for the concession of tries in many of his starts for Ireland.

And Zebo was partially responsible for the concession of a try in his start.

I think the point is its ridiculous to argue based on stats either way!

CIARAN_BOYLE · 06-11-2012 11:37pm

brinty wrote: »

If he puts jackson on the bench instead of O'gara and heaven forbid sexton is injured..we've a kid not playing senior rugby six months leading the team...get real...O'gara has to be on the bench
Murray will start because the boks have a huge backrow who will run over reddan and marshall

Personally I would be more worried about ROG being run over if he actually is involved then Redden and Marshall.

goreyguy · 06-11-2012 11:39pm

we are going to beat SA by being more physical than them, so murray should not be starting. Get Reddan in there and get the backs moving fast

brinty · 06-11-2012 11:39pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Personally I would be more worried about ROG being run over if he actually is involved then Redden and Marshall.

I'll give ye that Ciaran

But Rog won't start

CIARAN_BOYLE · 06-11-2012 11:41pm

brinty wrote: »

I'll give ye that Ciaran
But Rog won't start

But if Sexton gets injured in the first minute you have a 35 year old player whose idea of tackling is to be a speed bump and is lucky to be starting for his province and you are expecting him to survive a full game

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