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Sandy Hook familes sue...well, pretty much everyone

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,428 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    In that case aren't state gun control laws already in contravention of the constitutional right to bear arms? (I know this has been done to death across the USA).

    Well that depends who you talk to, some people think any restrictions at all violate the 2A- even those that stop felons possessing them.

    Still, you can't sue the government for the 2A.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Strider wrote: »
    People that own automatics do all they can to secure them, they're almost a financial investment in the US. You're talking several thousand dollars for even the cheapest and tens of thousands for the more desirable models and they will only appreciate.

    You're more likely to see standard firearms..semi auto AR-15's etc. stolen than the more exotic items- automatics etc. Partly because there are more of the former but also because people that own the latter ones tend not to just throw them behind a door in their house etc.
    But since they exist they are pretty much guaranteed to be more likely to fall into the wrong hands than guns that don't exist all the same, yes?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,428 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    But since they exist they are pretty much guaranteed to be more likely to fall into the wrong hands than guns that don't exist all the same, yes?

    It's a bit late to try and de-invent firearms now.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Strider wrote: »
    It's a bit late to try and de-invent firearms now.
    Unless you are contending that banning gun sales and ownership will never have any effect on actual gun ownership, that's not even one bit relevant.
    You can't de-invent the hydrogen bomb, but we have laws restricting their construction and ownership all the same.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭The Diabolical Monocle


    Strider wrote: »
    The government doesn't 'allow' them, they're a right under the US Constitution. You can't sue the constitution.

    Wrong.
    US constitution says right to bear arms.


    Yet you're not allowed to legally buy a ballistic missile, or an anti aircraft missile or landmines. Or other armaments like grenades.

    Someone in us gov did set a limit at some point.


    If they hadn't you'd be watching news of a huge scale massacre by a peeved emo with an automatic grenade launcher bought from Walmart.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,428 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Unless you are contending that banning gun sales and ownership will never have any effect on actual gun ownership, that's not even one bit relevant.
    You can't de-invent the hydrogen bomb, but we have laws restricting their construction and ownership all the same.

    You could try to ban gun sales/ownership in the US but it probably wouldn't go down very well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,428 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Wrong.
    US constitution says right to bear arms.


    Yet you're not allowed to legally buy a ballistic missile, or an anti aircraft missile or landmines. Or other armaments like grenades.

    Someone in us gov did set a limit at some point.


    If they hadn't you'd be watching news of a huge scale massacre by a peeved emo with an automatic grenade launcher bought from Walmart.

    You can buy grenades...rpgs etc. Destructive devices according to the BATF... pay $200 a piece and you can have them. You'll still find people on the US that say everything should be legal..missiles, the lot.

    They did set limits...on items people don't want or have any use for..now lets see them push to outlaw firearms in their entirety...that would go well.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Strider wrote: »
    You could try to ban gun sales/ownership in the US but it probably wouldn't go down very well.
    That is also an entirely separate argument as to whether banning gun sales and ownership would decrease gun related crime or not.
    (next strawman in 3... 2... 1...)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Strider wrote: »
    You could try to ban gun sales/ownership in the US but it probably wouldn't go down very well.

    The irony is that every time there is a shooting incident gun sales go up because people feel a greater need to protect themselves and in case restrictions are introduced on gun ownership.

    It's arguable that the 'right to bear arms' does not extend to the individual, but to the community - in other words it's a right to raise a militia. Saying that, the toothpaste is out of the tube so arguments over the meaning / application of the Second Amendment are somewhat academic.

    Maybe some of the other aspects of gun ownership could be better regulated - I was in Delaware and Vermont in the summer where there is permissive open carry and it was mad seeing people window shopping with a pistol strapped to their hip!! It seems the trend is towards allowing more people in more situations permission to carry a pistol both as an open carry or as a concealed carry.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,428 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    That is also an entirely separate argument as to whether banning gun sales and ownership would decrease gun related crime or not.
    (next strawman in 3... 2... 1...)

    It certainly might...in the US. But as we see here in Ireland...criminals import firearms so yes in some cases, no in others.

    But talk of banning them in the US is ridiculous..will never happen.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,428 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Jawgap wrote: »

    It's arguable that the 'right to bear arms' does not extend to the individual, but to the community - in other words it's a right to raise a militia.

    Maybe some of the other aspects of gun ownership could be better regulated - I was in Delaware and Vermont in the summer where there is permissive open carry and it was mad seeing people window shopping with a pistol strapped to their hip!! It seems the trend is towards allowing more people in more situations permission to carry a pistol both as an open carry or as a concealed carry.

    Under US law the populace is defined as a national militia. People have already tried using that avenue to overturn the 2A...doesn't work. If it was that easy it would have been done decades ago.

    You're Irish I presume so I understand that it may have been frightening seeing someone carrying a gun...most people here will never even see a gun but you have to remember that for the people in the areas you visited...seeing a firearm is part of life. For them someone carrying a firearm doesn't automatically equal danger. I'm Irish myself..and I own and use firearms so it wouldn't fluster me if I visited the US and saw someone carrying a firearm...it's all a matter of perspective.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Strider wrote: »
    Under US law the populace is defined as a national militia. People have already tried using that avenue to overturn the 2A...doesn't work. If it was that easy it would have been done decades ago.

    Yes, I know that's why I said 'it's arguable' - it's not definitive and to get it through would require a sea-change in the cultural phenomenon that is American gun ownership.
    Strider wrote: »
    You're Irish I presume so I understand that it may have been frightening seeing someone carrying a gun...most people here will never even see a gun but you have to remember that for the people in the areas you visited...seeing a firearm is part of life. For them someone carrying a firearm doesn't automatically equal danger. I'm Irish myself..and I own and use firearms so it wouldn't fluster me if I visited the US and saw someone carrying a firearm...it's all a matter of perspective.

    It's not frightening - it's mad, that's why I said it was 'mad.' If it was frightening, I would have said it was frightening.

    I own and shoot guns myself (including a .303 rifle) both here and in the US, and my work takes me into contact with people who are both routinely and heavily armed - and as I said it's mad seeing ordinary people / citizens out doing everyday things like browsing shop windows on a main street in a small town with a 9mm Glock strapped to their hip (or in a tactical holster on the thigh as one guy had it).


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,428 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I own and shoot guns myself (including a .303 rifle) both here and in the US, and my work takes me into contact with people who are both routinely and heavily armed - and as I said it's mad seeing ordinary people / citizens out doing everyday things like browsing shop windows on a main street in a small town with a 9mm Glock strapped to their hip (or in a tactical holster on the thigh as one guy had it).

    Again, all a matter of perspective...the people there probably don't share your view on it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Strider wrote: »
    Again, all a matter of perspective...the people there probably don't share your view on it.

    Well good for them, and I really don't care whether they do or not. I understand the gun culture and the historical and political rationale underpinning it, but it's still mad to see a citizen out and about with a lethal weapon that they may or may not be trained to use walking down the street.

    It's their country and their rules, and it doesn't stop me looking forward to my next trip there.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭The Diabolical Monocle


    Strider wrote: »
    You can buy grenades...rpgs etc. Destructive devices according to the BATF... pay $200 a piece and you can have them. You'll still find people on the US that say everything should be legal..missiles, the lot.

    They did set limits...on items people don't want or have any use for..now lets see them push to outlaw firearms in their entirety...that would go well.

    Can I buy an anti aircraft missile from this BATF thing for $200.
    .... Im guessing theres more to that story.


    Never said outlaw firearms in their entirety.


    You'll still find people in the US that say the earth is flat.
    They should be put in the same category as the people you mention.

    So yes as you concede the US gov did set limits on what could be owned, because to not do so is obvious stupidity.

    That means the 2nd amendment isn't a holy licence to own any weapon you like. Isn't an untouchable document governing above all others.

    So make another change to whats legally available - you can still find a happy medium where people can own a weapon good for hunting or defense of their home yet not very good for spraying up a school.


    Keep in mind that no matter how great a constitution is its a man made document and in this case was written in a time when bearing arms meant a bag of black powder, a flint and probably 20 seconds between each shot.
    They couldn't foresee present day weapons... obviously its not written with them in mind.

    Also - bragging that the situation wont be changing any time soon is not a win ... it just means that the rest of the world will be watching another public slaughter in a couple of months. Congrats - epic win, hope its not one of your friends or family.




    Strider - thank me if you admit Im right and you're wrong in everything you've said.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,428 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Also - bragging that the situation wont be changing any time soon is not a win ... it just means that the rest of the world will be watching another public slaughter in a couple of months. Congrats - epic win, hope its not one of your friends or family.

    I should probably just let you know...I'm not American...just incase you think I am.


    I could get into the rest of your points but I won't, I've debated the same points to death on similar threads, no disrespect to you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith



    Keep in mind that no matter how great a constitution is its a man made document and in this case was written in a time when bearing arms meant a bag of black powder, a flint and probably 20 seconds between each shot.
    They couldn't foresee present day weapons... obviously its not written with them in mind.
    I would pay an unseemly amount of money to see the faces on some hardcore gun nuts if the US government decided that that amendment applied to period weapons only, and all those blokes with personal armouries had to trade all their semi-autos and pump-action shotguns for flintlock pistols.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭The Diabolical Monocle


    Strider wrote: »
    I could get into the rest of your points but I won't


    no, no you couldn't. Because theres no realistic argument against them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,428 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    no, no you couldn't. Because theres no realistic argument against them.

    Ok, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. As I said, these threads have been done to death and they never go anywhere, I'm going to take my leave.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    timetogo wrote: »
    Why?

    Since manufacturers are being sued for how people use a product, why not? Let's sue car companies the next time someone is knocked down by a drunken or careless driver. Or sue Diageo?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭The Diabolical Monocle


    Strider wrote: »
    Ok, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. As I said, these threads have been done to death and they never go anywhere, I'm going to take my leave.

    Its fact too. Bye.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,220 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Conversion kit is easily purchased unofficially as you well know and fits in an envelope.

    I don't know about other weapons such as AUGs, which strike me as being much simpler if you can find the kit, but for the common AR, it requires such machining tools and knowledge that if you can machine a semi-auto AR receiver to accept a full-auto sear, you're quite capable enough to just machine your own full-auto sear in the first place.
    ike making the gun as obvious as possible, maybe even making it a glow in the dark high viss type affair

    Why on Earth would you choose to give up a tactical advantage and make yourself more visible?
    What always surprises me is hearing of criminals with unregistered new guns. How do they get them? Is the gun company fined for every unregistered gun that shows up in the hands of a criminal? It kind of implies they're either dealing with criminals directly or are losing guns all over the place.

    Bit of both. A number of weapons are being purchased from shady dealers. Some are being purchased illegally from legitimate dealers. Some are brought North over the border. And some are just sold off the books legally, no questions asked, through gaps which should be sealed. The deputy director of the ATF testified last year that it does not go after people who lie when purchasing their firearms as they don't think it's worth the effort and money. (And what's our normal mantra about actually enforcing the laws on the books instead of making new ones?)
    I was in Delaware and Vermont in the summer where there is permissive open carry and it was mad seeing people window shopping with a pistol strapped to their hip!! It seems the trend is towards allowing more people in more situations permission to carry a pistol both as an open carry or as a concealed carry.

    Not a 'seem'. In the last thirty years, the vast majority of States have moved from "No concealed carry" to "concealed carry allowed." No particular bump in shootings has resulted. That said, so what? Did any of those folks with weapons threaten anyone?
    It's arguable that the 'right to bear arms' does not extend to the individual, but to the community - in other words it's a right to raise a militia. Saying that, the toothpaste is out of the tube so arguments over the meaning / application of the Second Amendment are somewhat academic.

    It's also academic because the Supreme Court has ruled on the matter, saying there is an individual right to firearms.
    So make another change to whats legally available - you can still find a happy medium where people can own a weapon good for hunting or defense of their home yet not very good for spraying up a school.

    There already is a happy medium. Try buying a submachine gun, a tank, a rocket launcher...

    The problem with legislating specific weapons is twofold. Firstly, that much objection is founded simply on aesthetics. Some people just don't like the -look- of an AR, but don't mind the -look- of a Remington 750. But their mechanical operation is identical. Centre-fire, gas-operated, semi-auto. This is the basis for much recent legislation in the US which determines which firearms you can or cannot own.

    The second problem is that the firearms which are best or most popular for hunting or defense of home, by their very nature, are also best or most popular for shooting up a school. Changing -that- is arguably going to be a Constitutional matter, not just Federal, but also at the State levels, where a number of States make hunting and self defense a Constitutional right. If you're going to limit the ability to exercise a Constitutional right (eg prohibit the use of semi-auto handguns for home defense), you need to have a damned good rationale for putting law abiding homeowners at a disadvantage. Otherwise, it's not going to pass muster in the courts, let alone politically.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    ......

    Not a 'seem'. In the last thirty years, the vast majority of States have moved from "No concealed carry" to "concealed carry allowed." No particular bump in shootings has resulted. That said, so what? Did any of those folks with weapons threaten anyone?

    Did they brandish a weapon? No, they didn't.

    Did I feel threatened? No, I didn't.

    Is it 'mad' that people need (?) to 'tool up' to go shopping? Well maybe if you're from Dexter, Maine it's not, it's normal; or as a citizen you feel you should regularly assert your constitutional rights. That's cool with me - as I said, their country their rules.

    Having been brought up in Ireland with different (not necessarily better) traditions I don't feel the need to sling my shotgun to go shopping (an exaggeration I know, but there's not many handguns in circulation).

    Having spent some years living in the States I kind of get it. I never found the idea of having a gun in the apartment appealing - although i did enjoy the occasional trip to the range. Other people feel different and again, that's their decision and I'd assume they feel they're making the right decision to suit their circumstances.

    My brother still lives there (getting on for 20 years now) and refuses to have a gun in the house (not something his in-laws readily agree with). Probably because we have a similar upbringing I'd agree with his logic - the more there are in circulation and the easier they are to access, the more likely something is to go wrong and someone get hurt.
    It's also academic because the Supreme Court has ruled on the matter, saying there is an individual right to firearms.
    .

    Yes, I know, that's why I said there would have to be a a sea-change in the cultural phenomenon that is American gun ownership - any change is not going to be judicially driven, it'll have to come from the bottom up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Why on Earth would you choose to give up a tactical advantage and make yourself more visible?
    What does the average joe know about tactical advantages? From the point of view of protecting your home from intruders most normal people just want the bad people to go away. If they actually have to shoot someone it can lead to long term mental problems, most humans aren't equipped to deal with killing another person whether it's justified or not. So a big bright shiny gun, maybe one that glowed in the dark would highlight to any intruders that the occupant is armed and looking to shoot someone. I would guess 90% of the time burglar will run once they know the owner of the house their robbing is aware of them. The other 9% will run once they see a gun.

    If it's for home protection make a gun specifically for home protection, don't give them a gun that's designed for invading countries.

    Hunting is different, it's a different task with different needs but even so why not make them high viz? Don't they require hunters to wear high viz while hunting in the states? It's not like the animal will know the difference.

    The reason for doing this would be to make guns look like a dangerous tool that's easy to spot. If the gun is for hunting or home defense then it doesn't have to look cool it just has to do a job. Making the gun look a bit more stupid is going to kill the guns inherent coolness too.


    Bit of both. A number of weapons are being purchased from shady dealers. Some are being purchased illegally from legitimate dealers. Some are brought North over the border. And some are just sold off the books legally, no questions asked, through gaps which should be sealed.
    I think every time the police in the states get a gun that can't be traced back to a registered user they should go to the gun company and demand to know how the gun got into the hands of a criminal. It's not like it's a lot to ask, most companies do tend to trace their products and can usually tell you exactly where it went and how it got there. Make them responsible for who they sell their products too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    ScumLord wrote: »
    What does the average joe know about tactical advantages? From the point of view of protecting your home from intruders most normal people just want the bad people to go away. If they actually have to shoot someone it can lead to long term mental problems, most humans aren't equipped to deal with killing another person whether it's justified or not. So a big bright shiny gun, maybe one that glowed in the dark would highlight to any intruders that the occupant is armed and looking to shoot someone. I would guess 90% of the time burglar will run once they know the owner of the house their robbing is aware of them. The other 9% will run once they see a gun.
    ...

    i cant believe i actually just read that rubbish.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭timetogo


    Beano wrote: »
    i cant believe i actually just read that rubbish.

    I thought it made sense. If my house is being burgled and I have a gun, I don't want t a "tactical advantage", I want the burglar to get the hell out preferably without having to shoot him.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    timetogo wrote: »
    I thought it made sense. If my house is being burgled and I have a gun, I don't want t a "tactical advantage", I want the burglar to get the hell out preferably without having to shoot him.

    Except if the burglar brings a non-luminescent gun and you're stood there with your big glow in the dark weapon (ooooooh, Matron :D) - the burglar knows where to shoot!!

    Better to have the gun and when you here the noise cock it as loudly as possible and warn them if they come up the stairs your shooting them......and that you've called the police. (That's my plan!)


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Except if the burglar brings a non-luminescent gun and you're stood there with your big glow in the dark weapon (ooooooh, Matron :D) - the burglar knows where to shoot!!
    Why wouldn't he know where to shoot if the homeowner had a normal gun? If it's dark maybe he'll get freaked out by a floating ghost gun. Put a very powerful light on the end of the gun and he won't be able to make out the exact position of the homeowner. He'll know a general direction but with a powerful light shining in his face he won't be able to be all that accurate in the heat of the moment.

    Either way an assault rifle doesn't make the best home defense gun. It's going to be awkward indoors and it's round could end up going through walls and injuring people in other rooms or houses.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    ScumLord wrote:
    Either way an assault rifle doesn't make the best home defense gun.

    It does if you weigh less than 90 lbs or so and cannot accurately fire a pistol or handle the recoil of a shotgun.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,086 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    The defendants have no case to answer.

    Case closed.


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