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what was here before god??

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  • 10-03-2008 11:27pm
    #1
    WiDGe->
    Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭


    seriously. does the bible say anything about this? did god create himself?


«1345

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    #2
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    According to Habakkuk 1:12, God is eternal - "from everlasting".

    There was never a time when He did not exist.


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    #3
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    But from a scientific point of view there was never a time when the matter in my body did not exist either. God cannot be older than the Universe. The idea that God was around before the Universe was created makes no sense in science as there was no "before". Time was created at the big bang, there was no such thing as time before the big bang.


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    #4
    WiDGe->
    Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭WiDGe->


    its all a bit mad isnt it?? by that i mean science and religion. we never know where we came from, and doubtless we ever will. its something that ive been struggling to realise this past while. what was here before everything?? just elements in space?? and then before that again?? so many questions!!


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    #5
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,234 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    WiDGe-> wrote: »
    its all a bit mad isnt it?? by that i mean science and religion. we never know where we came from, and doubtless we ever will. its something that ive been struggling to realise this past while. what was here before everything?? just elements in space?? and then before that again?? so many questions!!

    There is no logical justification for the existence of god. There is no philosophical proof that works without turning into a circular argument.

    There is no need for an un-caused cause or a first mover because if it is believable that a sophisticated, complex being like 'God' could exist forever, then it should be just as believable (if not more so) that the matter and energy in the universe has always existed and didn't need to be created.


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    #6
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Depeche_Mode wrote: »
    But from a scientific point of view there was never a time when the matter in my body did not exist either. God cannot be older than the Universe. The idea that God was around before the Universe was created makes no sense in science as there was no "before". Time was created at the big bang, there was no such thing as time before the big bang.
    God exists outside of time because for Him there is only the eternal now, no past and no future. Time only exists within the created universe.
    Akrasia wrote: »
    There is no logical justification for the existence of god. There is no philosophical proof that works without turning into a circular argument.
    True, there is no proof that God exists but it's reasonable to say that something caused the big-bang. Everything except God must have a cause.
    Akrasia wrote: »
    There is no need for an un-caused cause or a first mover because if it is believable that a sophisticated, complex being like 'God' could exist forever, then it should be just as believable (if not more so) that the matter and energy in the universe has always existed and didn't need to be created.
    Have you not read Hawking (and Penrose)? They proved that time began with the big-bang. It's generally accepted that the universe began in a singularity but scientists don't know what caused the singularity. I would suggest that the mathematical models break down because the big-bang came out of nothing.


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    #7
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Everything except God must have a cause.
    Er, why does god not need a cause? Why do you allow yourself a get-out clause that you deny to everybody else?

    .


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    #8
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    Perhaps there are Über Gods which created Yahweh and will judge him, and in turn they were created by even higher Gods and so on? If we accept there is one God then why stop there?


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    #9
    Popinjay
    Registered Users Posts: 507 ✭✭✭Popinjay


    robindch wrote: »
    Er, why?

    Because he said so! Honestly, must I explain everything.


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    #10
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    robindch wrote: »
    Er, why?
    You must know the argument for this? Assuming that God does exists, it makes no sense that God is a created being because you then have to ask the question who created God and so it goes back along an infinite chain of creator and creation. So the suggestion that God is created is absurd.


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    #11
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    You must know the argument for this? Assuming that God does exists, it makes no sense that God is a created being because you then have to ask the question who created God and so it goes back along an infinite chain of creator and creation. So the suggestion that God is created is absurd.

    Not really. There is no logical reason to say that. Why can't the thing that created God be infinite? Why can't God have evolved from non-Godlike infinite particles?


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    #12
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,234 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    kelly1 wrote: »
    You must know the argument for this? Assuming that God does exists, it makes no sense that God is a created being because you then have to ask the question who created God and so it goes back along an infinite chain of creator and creation. So the suggestion that God is created is absurd.
    This is the Perfect example of circular theological 'reasoning'
    You say it makes no sense that God is a created being and use that to deduce that god must have existed forever.

    The alternative, that God doesn't have a creator because god doesn't exist never crosses your mind.


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    #13
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Not really. There is no logical reason to say that. Why can't the thing that created God be infinite? Why can't God have evolved from non-Godlike infinite particles?
    Infinite in what sense Wicknight? And what are infinite particles???
    Akrasia wrote: »
    This is the Perfect example of circular theological 'reasoning'
    You say it makes no sense that God is a created being and use that to deduce that god must have existed forever.

    The alternative, that God doesn't have a creator because god doesn't exist never crosses your mind.
    You may have missed the fact that I used the word "assuming". If you assume that God exists, then it's illogical to say that He was created because time began at the big-bang a finite number of years ago. You can of course also assume that God doesn't exists but then you have the big question of what created the big-bang. So you make your choice.


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    #14
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,234 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    kelly1 wrote: »

    True, there is no proof that God exists but it's reasonable to say that something caused the big-bang. Everything except God must have a cause.
    I didn't mean physical proof, I meant a logical reason why we should believe in god, where god is necessary in order for the universe to make sense.
    Have you not read Hawking (and Penrose)? They proved that time began with the big-bang. It's generally accepted that the universe began in a singularity but scientists don't know what caused the singularity. I would suggest that the mathematical models break down because the big-bang came out of nothing.
    The Big Bang is one of a number of theories that attempt to explain the origin of the universe. The big bang is described as a singularity, but it is possible that the universe is infinite and creates and destroys itself in a loop that lasts for all eternity, recycling matter and energy.

    We have the theory of the big bang, we also have the theory of the impending big crunch where all the matter in the universe is eventually sucked back into the center. It makes perfect sense to believe that this is part of a cycle of explosions and contractions that requires no beginning or end. Much more sense than to believe that a god created one universe out of nothing that will eventually be destroyed.

    And even if there was some overarching creator. There is no logical reason why it should bare any resemblance to the judaeo christian entity this forum is devoted to


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    #15
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    ....True, there is no proof that God exists .....

    Ah hallo?!?! What about Jesus, Noel? Was he not proof?


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    #16
    FruitLover
    Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭FruitLover


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Ah hallo?!?! What about Jesus, Noel? Was he not proof?

    If some guy came up to you on the street and said "here bud, I'm the son of God!", would you consider it proof?


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    #17
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,234 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Infinite in what sense Wicknight? And what are infinite particles???

    You may have missed the fact that I used the word "assuming". If you assume that God exists, then it's illogical to say that He was created because time began at the big-bang a finite number of years ago. You can of course also assume that God doesn't exists but then you have the big question of what created the big-bang. So you make your choice.
    Thats the whole point of circular reasoning. It can 'prove' absolutely anything you like if you make 'assumptions' without any basis.

    "This kitchen fork could not have been forged by man because it is made out of enchanted steel that means it will never break, Therefore it was crafted by some kind of enchanter"
    Its a perfectly valid piece of logical reasoning, except it is 100% dependent on the two propositions, that the fork is actually enchanted, and that humans or nature are incapable of replicating the properties of an enchanted fork without the need for a 'mystical enchanter'
    Christians take things a step even further to say 'It must have been made by an enchanter, therefore: Gandalf the wizard must exist'. which is a logical fallacy.


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    #18
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    kelly1 wrote: »
    You must know the argument for this? Assuming that God does exists, it makes no sense that God is a created being because you then have to ask the question who created God and so it goes back along an infinite chain of creator and creation. So the suggestion that God is created is absurd.
    The original statement which was questioned stated that everything except God must have a cause.

    This answer suggests that the original statement should have read : "assuming that God exists, everything except God must have a cause", which is substantially different and still not necessarily true. It doesn't prevent something other than God also existing without a cause.

    It is only once we assume God exists and assume that all that is not God was created by God, do we arrive at the conclusion. However, at such a point, it should be clear that our 'conclusion' is no more than a restatement of our assumptions!


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    #19
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    FruitLover wrote: »
    If some guy came up to you on the street and said "here bud, I'm the son of God!", would you consider it proof?

    No. But Noel's faith is based around the "truth" that is Jesus. Besides I don't think I was sarcastic enough for you to get it.


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    #20
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    kelly1 wrote: »
    You must know the argument for this? Assuming that God does exists, it makes no sense that God is a created being because you then have to ask the question who created God and so it goes back along an infinite chain of creator and creation. So the suggestion that God is created is absurd.
    Yes, and the question "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" is also absurd for the same reason -- because it assumes something that is not true -- in this case, that you are, or were, beating your wife.

    Saying that god is uncaused violates the rule of causation that you use to "prove" god's existence.

    And in any case, why cannot there be a chain of one or more gods creating each other somehow, or a god which is created at the big-bang, or some other celestial configuration? I'm sure there are hundreds or thousands of variations -- why is your one true?


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    #21
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Not really. There is no logical reason to say that. Why can't the thing that created God be infinite? Why can't God have evolved from non-Godlike infinite particles?

    And you say that there is no logical reasoning behind God who exists outside of time and has existed eternally? :confused:

    Honestly, this string of thread is amazing.

    Depeche mode wants to rely on science to prove to him that the God of teh Christian Bible exists or doesnt exist, which amazes me because science can not prove such a thing.

    Wicknight really really eants God to succumb to wicknights view on logic and resoning when God knows so much more that anyone and opertaes onlogic and reasoning that transcends any information athat we'll ever know.


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    #22
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Akrasia wrote: »

    The alternative, that God doesn't have a creator because god doesn't exist never crosses your mind.

    No because God doesn't need a creator.

    Has it ever crossed your mind that God soes exist yet you refuse to acknowledge His existence?


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    #23
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Akrasia wrote: »
    I didn't mean physical proof, I meant a logical reason why we should believe in god, where god is necessary in order for the universe to make sense.


    The Big Bang is one of a number of theories that attempt to explain the origin of the universe. The big bang is described as a singularity, but it is possible that the universe is infinite and creates and destroys itself in a loop that lasts for all eternity, recycling matter and energy.

    We have the theory of the big bang, we also have the theory of the impending big crunch where all the matter in the universe is eventually sucked back into the center. It makes perfect sense to believe that this is part of a cycle of explosions and contractions that requires no beginning or end. Much more sense than to believe that a god created one universe out of nothing that will eventually be destroyed.

    And even if there was some overarching creator. There is no logical reason why it should bare any resemblance to the judaeo christian entity this forum is devoted to

    So you have a theory called the Big Bang, the big crunch, plus a series of explosions (every explosion I have ever witnessed destroyed, didnt build up).

    We have teh living Christ, who raised form teh dead others and then Himself.

    You can believe in theories of explosions, I'll take Jesus Christ. And you call Christians illogical?


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    #24
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Akrasia wrote: »
    This is the Perfect example of circular theological 'reasoning'
    You say it makes no sense that God is a created being and use that to deduce that god must have existed forever.
    No, I think you're misconstruing what I'm saying. Firstly I'm assuming that God exists. If you suggest God was created, then it's logical to ask who created Him. Yes? And if you follow this logic you have to come to the conclusion that God's creator was created and so on ad infinitum. So it's illogical so think that God was created if you assume that a god exists. Yes?
    Akrasia wrote: »
    The alternative, that God doesn't have a creator because god doesn't exist never crosses your mind.
    Of course it did!


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    #25
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,234 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    So you have a theory called the Big Bang, the big crunch, plus a series of explosions (every explosion I have ever witnessed destroyed, didnt build up).
    There is a lot of scientific evidence for a big bang. There is no evidence at all for a universe created by a god in 6 days.
    We have teh living Christ, who raised form teh dead others and then Himself.

    You can believe in theories of explosions, I'll take Jesus Christ. And you call Christians illogical?
    If you're unable to comprehend the idea of the big bang and want to reduce it down to a cartoon version of 'explosions' then just say so.

    'Explosions only destroy.... Bad explosion.....'

    The Big bang was an enormous release of matter and energy that over billions of years, arranged themselves through forces like gravity, magnetism and chemical reactions in the vacuum of space into the celestial bodies that make up our universe.
    God is nowhere to be seen.


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    #26
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Infinite in what sense Wicknight? And what are infinite particles???
    Infinite as in eternal and everywhere. In other words, God but without the intelligence.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    You may have missed the fact that I used the word "assuming". If you assume that God exists, then it's illogical to say that He was created because time began at the big-bang a finite number of years ago.
    Well yes but given that we have no idea what anything was like outside of the framework of this universe it is equally illogical to say that God couldn't have been created. Assuming God exists he could exist in a space-time set up separate and independent to ours and could have been created.

    I'm not saying he was. I am merely pointing out that it is as impossible for you to make judgements about the nature of a being outside of the universe as it is for me. You can no more say he is couldn't have been created as I can say he must have been created.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    You can of course also assume that God doesn't exists but then you have the big question of what created the big-bang. So you make your choice.
    Well yes but the point is that saying "God did it" doesn't actually answer the "big question" because you are left explaining the existence of God, which to be honest seems far more difficult to explain than the Big Bang happening through a non-intelligent event.


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    #27
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    No, I think you're misconstruing what I'm saying. Firstly I'm assuming that God exists. If you suggest God was created, then it's logical to ask who created Him. Yes? And if you follow this logic you have to come to the conclusion that God's creator was created and so on ad infinitum. So it's illogical so think that God was created if you assume that a god exists. Yes?

    There are a number of (large) jumps in your logic

    If we assume that a all powerful eternal being can exist that doesn't mean that God must be himself eternal. God could have been created by a being that was eternal. God would have been created, but his creator wasn't.

    Your logic only holds if you assume that an non-created eternal being cannot create another created eternal being, and since we are way way into the realm of supernatural all powerfulness I see no reason to suppose that.


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    #28
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    And you say that there is no logical reasoning behind God who exists outside of time and has existed eternally? :confused:
    No, I said that there is no logical reason to suppose that the only two possible outcomes is that God is either a non-created eternal being or what ever created him would itself have to be created and as such you end up in an infinite loop.

    I see little reason why a third option, that God was created by a being that itself was not created but eternal, or even a fourth option, that God evolved naturally from non-intelligent substance.
    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Wicknight really really eants God to succumb to wicknights view on logic and resoning when God knows so much more that anyone and opertaes onlogic and reasoning that transcends any information athat we'll ever know.

    That seems to be your excuse for everything these days.


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    #29
    JoeB-
    Registered Users Posts: 689 ✭✭✭JoeB-


    The point is that the universe itself may be eternal and infinite... but to posit the existence of an infinite creator is pure folly.

    After all the universe is known to exist (and so an explanation for it's existence must be forthcoming) whereas God is only conjecture. The second, important, point is that the complexity we observe in the universe comes from the application of simple rules... there can be no answer to the complexity of a creator god as rules don't apply to him, he simply popped into existence.

    So the universe is simple and structured, God however, with his traits is most definitely not simple and is completely arbitrary.... so it is very difficult to explain how such a complex being could simply be?

    If you accept God you may as well believe in any number of creator gods, each creating more and all being infinite in nature.

    Read Hawkins 'Brief History of Time' for a good explanation which is godless... or Dawkins who shatters the argument the God doesn't himself need a cause or creator.

    The universe evolves, it started simply, then gradually became more complex. (The universe may not have 'started' in some senses, to say it 'started' may just be an analogy which is the closest our current understanding can come to explaining it)

    God himself is quite simply unbelieveable... but to attach human characteristics and traits to him is even worse folly.

    As I asked before, God would instantly become depressed and suicidal if he is as described, have you considered this or do you have any answer to it? (After all, like Noel says he is trapped in an eternal 'present', what torture that must be)


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    #30
    JoeB-
    Registered Users Posts: 689 ✭✭✭JoeB-


    The point is that the universe itself may be eternal and infinite... but to posit the existence of an infinite creator is pure folly.

    After all the universe is known to exist (and so an explanation for it's existence must be forthcoming) whereas God is only conjecture. The second, important, point is that the complexity we observe in the universe comes from the application of simple rules... there can be no answer to the complexity of a creator god as rules don't apply to him, he simply popped into existence.

    So the universe is simple and structured, God however, with his traits is most definitely not simple and is completely arbitrary.... so it is very difficult to explain how such a complex being could simply be?

    If you accept God you may as well believe in any number of creator gods, each creating more and all being infinite in nature.

    Read Hawkins 'Brief History of Time' for a good explanation which is godless... or Dawkins who shatters the argument the God doesn't himself need a cause or creator.

    The universe evolves, it started simply, then gradually became more complex. (The universe may not have 'started' in some senses, to say it 'started' may just be an analogy which is the closest our current understanding can come to explaining it)

    God himself is quite simply unbelieveable... but to attach human characteristics and traits to him is even worse folly.

    As I asked before, God would instantly become depressed and suicidal if he is as described, have you considered this or do you have any answer to it? (After all, like Noel says he is trapped in an eternal 'present', what torture that must be)


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    #31
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    JoeBallantine wrote: »
    The point is that the universe itself may be eternal and infinite... but to posit the existence of an infinite creator is pure folly.

    :D


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