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Once saved always saved is a false doctrine..
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PDN wrote:Ah, my apologies. I had thought you were suggesting that there was some significance in the fact that many people in the past (Popes who started wars etc.) thought they were saved but were not.
There is no significance in it beyond demonstrating that just because you think you are currently saved doesn't meant you actually are. I'm sure these warring Popes "knew" they were saved as well.PDN wrote:Sometimes I think you just like to argue for the sake of it.
I'm not arguing PDN, I'm stating my position. You are arguing I'm wrong, though your statement that you don't believe in Once Saved Always Saved would seem to suggest you actually agree with me. So why you are arguing against my position I'm not sure.
Think of it this way. If someone knows they are saved, can they at some point in the future lose this salvation? You appear to be saying yes. And if they can, then how can they "know" they are saved originally, since they end up not being saved.0 -
Not sure.Wicknight wrote:I'm not arguing PDN, I'm stating my position. You are arguing I'm wrong, though your statement that you don't believe in Once Saved Always Saved would seem to suggest you actually agree with me. So why you are arguing against my position I'm not sure.
Because you are not only arguing against "once saved always saved" but also against assurance of salvation. The Bible clearly states that we can know that we are saved.
Think of it this way. A man is trapped in a burning building. Fire fighters save him from the building and drag him back behind a safety cordon. At this moment he is saved.Think of it this way. If someone knows they are saved, can they at some point in the future lose this salvation? You appear to be saying yes. And if they can, then how can they "know" they are saved originally, since they end up not being saved.
Then he stupidly decides to break through the cordon and run back into the burning building. He dies in the flames. Now he is not saved.
At one point he was saved, and knew that he was saved. Now he is no longer saved - but that does not mean his earlier salvation, or his knowledge of the fact, were untrue.0 -
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PDN wrote:Think of it this way. A man is trapped in a burning building. Fire fighters save him from the building and drag him back behind a safety cordon. At this moment he is saved.
Then he stupidly decides to break through the cordon and run back into the burning building. He dies in the flames. Now he is not saved.
At one point he was saved, and knew that he was saved. Now he is no longer saved - but that does not mean his earlier salvation, or his knowledge of the fact, were untrue.
Yes, I agree 100% with you. In fact that is my whole point. You are saved when you are actually saved
Imagine this example. The man is trapped in a burning building. He sees out the window fire trucks raising towards the building. He thinks "Oh thank God, now I know I'm saved". He sits down and starts reading the paper, flicking through the sports section, and a few minutes later a burning beam falls on top of him.
At the moment the man was arrogant to assume that he was saved just because the fire trucks were on their way. He wasn't saved. He knew he that the fire trucks were coming to save him. He knew that he would be saved. But is he saved yet? Nope.
You aren't saved until you are actually saved. This is true of all Christian concepts of Salvation, but particularly if one is speaking of salvation from death.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Accepting this is like seeing the fire trucks coming (or for a better metaphor, calling 911 and asking for help). But until one has eternal life one is not saved from the wages of sin. For the man to say he knows he is saved was foolish and cost him his life.0 -
Not sure.
I would agree with Noel on this one. OSAS is a mith born from the Pits of Hell itself. Nowhere in the entire Bible does it teach this, If then the Bible does not teach it, from where does this teaching come. It comes from the minds of men, which is persuaded by satan, and is in fact "ANOTHER GOSPEL".kelly1 wrote:Folks, OSAS is a dangerous doctrine that gives a false sense of security.
The biggest downfall, and their will be weeping and gnashing of teeth because of it, of the phylosophy behind OSAS belief, is that if that is True, there is no need to get sin out of your life, no need to change for the better, no need to walk the walk, no need to obey the Word of God, because Once you are Saved. I would have to give Satan a compliment on this docterine, he is truly very good at decieving people and having them believe things which are not Biblical, and believe that they are True. he is in fact a Master Deciever.
There are many uncertainties in this life, but your soul’s salvation does NOT need to be one of them. You can KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are saved and on your way to heaven. “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life” (1st John 5:13).kelly1 wrote:There is no guarantee of salvation, we need to persevere to the END. We are saved by grace and if we die without sanctifying grace we go to Hell. Mortal sin kills the grace in our souls and casts the Holy Trinity out.PDN wrote:Because you are not only arguing against "once saved always saved" but also against assurance of salvation. The Bible clearly states that we can know that we are saved.
Think of it this way. A man is trapped in a burning building. Fire fighters save him from the building and drag him back behind a safety cordon. At this moment he is saved.
Then he stupidly decides to break through the cordon and run back into the burning building. He dies in the flames. Now he is not saved.
At one point he was saved, and knew that he was saved. Now he is no longer saved - but that does not mean his earlier salvation, or his knowledge of the fact, were untrue.
Well put and could be a good way of explaining 2 Peter 2:20-22.
"If they have escaped [past tense] the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud” (2 Pet. 2:20-22).0 -
Not sure.Wicknight wrote:You aren't saved until you are actually saved. This is true of all Christian concepts of Salvation, but particularly if one is speaking of salvation from death.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Accepting this is like seeing the fire trucks coming (or for a better metaphor, calling 911 and asking for help). But until one has eternal life one is not saved from the wages of sin. For the man to say he knows he is saved was foolish and cost him his life.
Ah, now I see what is causing the confusion. Salvation, in the New Testament, is primarily from sin. Therefore, once the believer knows that his sins are forgiven, he is already saved.
Death is frequently used in the New Testament to refer, not to physical death, nor even to the eternal death of hell, but rather spiritual death. This is why Paul says to the Ephesians, "you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world" (Ephesians 2:1-2). Before the Ephesians believed in Christ they were already, in God's sight, spiritually dead.
Look again at the verse that I quoted earlier:We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. (1 John 3:14)
That makes 2 very clear statements.
1. We can know that we are saved.
2. We can know that we have already passed from death to life. We don't have to wait until we get to heaven because we have already entered into life.
Wicknight, I think, to be honest, that your insistence on the priority of hell in the whole Christian scheme of things is skewing how you read many New Testament verses. Yes, the New testament certainly warns of hell, but hell is not our major problem. Sin, for the Christian, is a bigger problem than hell. This is why Jesus had to die on the Cross, because a salvation that just wiped out hell without dealing with the problem of sin would be wholly inadequate.
So, once a Christian knows that his sins are forgiven, he or she is saved and has already passed from death to life. We can enter eternal life now, without waiting until heaven. Any attempt to describe soteriology (the study of salvation) that skirts around, or denies, these truths will be profoundly unbiblical.
Now, maybe we can get back to the OP which dealt with the doctrine of eternal security, or "Once saved always saved"? Assurance of salvation is not the issue here, for the Bible is very clear that Christians can know that they are saved. The issue is whether, after being genuinely saved, someone can lose this salvation.
Anyway, I'm posting this from the airport as I'm on my way to Donetsk, Ukraine for a week. I don't expect to have access to an internet connection, but since Christians have been debating eternal security for centuries without reaching agreement, I doubt if I will miss any major breakthrough in a week.0 -
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PDN wrote:Before the Ephesians believed in Christ they were already, in God's sight, spiritually dead.
I suppose the core issue, and possibly my confusion, is what does that actually mean.
My understand was that to be spiritually dead means that you can live a perfectly happy and content life but when you die that it is, you are separated from God and as such condemned to hell, or oblivion or what ever.
You seem to be saying that as well as that, being spiritually dead means that now, in this current time while you are alive, you are also being constantly effected negatively by sin. And that to be saved not only means that you are saved from the inevitable fact of death and ever lasting separation from God, but also saved from the constant negative effects of sin in the current moment.
That wouldn't have been my understand of what Christianity teaches, but like anything I can be wrong (I see 100 regular posters screen snapping that sentence and dating it
). To me that doesn't quite fit with the reality of how Christians live life and view this life.
I would be interested, just for my own understanding, in how Christians actually view this salvation, ie what do they think actually happened/changed for them in their live, and how they view that in a salvation frame work.0 -
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Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.Kelly1
Hello JC, just in reply to some points you made earlier .....
Hello Kelly, thanks for your reply.:)
Kelly1
I'd like to clarify my beliefs a bit further. I agree, as all protestants do, that we are saved through Christ's sacrifice on the cross and nothing else. It is impossible for us to merit our own salvation.
OK....but your belief in Mortal Sin and Sanctifying Grace seems to be distinctly 'non-protestant' to me!!!
Kelly1
The grace we receive from God is only possible because of Christ. We don't deserve it. Having said that God doesn't force His will upon us and we always have the free will to reject Him. If we choose to reject God and not repent of our sins, we cannot be saved.
OK, your 'moderate Armenian' position is the correct one!!!
Kelly1
In order to be saved, we need to co-operate with God's grace. We can't just rest on our laurels and wait to be whisked off to Heaven when we die. Imagine life is a car race. God provides us with the car and a tank full of fuel for the journey but we have start the engine, press the accelerator and steer the car. It's up to us to decide which direction to take.
Just ‘get in the car and start the engine’……. by using your free will to believe on Jesus Christ……..and God will do the rest!!!:D
Kelly1
How can our salvation be guaranteed given that we have free will to reject God? If someone decided they no longer wanted accept Jesus as their saviour, then wouldn't God be forcing His will upon them by saving them despite having rejected Him? There is no assurance of salvation because it depends on whether we die in a state of grace. Without sanctifying grace it is impossible for us to exist in the presence of God. It's like trying to exist underwater without scuba gear.
Our salvation is guaranteed once we are saved……which is an irrevocable, freely-entered, agreement binding on both parties between God and the individual that is saved.
Wolfsbane has eloquently put it as follows:-
Now that he has a new nature he will never choose to reject God. So his free will and his eternal security are intact.
Why then do Christians still fall into sin? Well, like Paul, we still have the old nature clinging to us. It opposes all that the new nature loves:
Romans 7: 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Kelly1
God does His BIT and we need to do our bit. It's all about doing God's will. Breaking the commandments (i.e. commit mortal sin) destroys the grace in our souls and makes our souls unfit for the presence of the Holy Trinity and unfit for Heaven. Fortunately Christ's passion allows for the forgiveness of sins.
…..again Wolfsbane has eloquently and correctly answered your question as follows:-
The error here is thinking that only some sins are so serious as to merit hell. Every sin makes us unfit for heaven, had Christ not paid for it. No sin in the Christian's life can overcome His grace. It may well bring discipline on us; and if still unrepented of, will lead to God permanently removing us from the sin, as the Corinthian Christians discovered:
1 Corinthians 11:30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
NB. We are judged, even to the point of death, so that we will not be eternally condemned.
Kelly1
Good works doesn't in itself save us but not doing good works is a sin.
I agree……but after you are saved, your (past, present and future) sins are forgiven…..and you are assured of eternal life.
….and insofar as you continue to sin after being saved you will be disciplined by God in this life……but you will NOT be eternally condemned in the next!!!:D
PDN
Think of it this way. A man is trapped in a burning building. Fire fighters save him from the building and drag him back behind a safety cordon. At this moment he is saved.
Then he stupidly decides to break through the cordon and run back into the burning building. He dies in the flames. Now he is not saved.
At one point he was saved, and knew that he was saved. Now he is no longer saved - but that does not mean his earlier salvation, or his knowledge of the fact, were untrue.
There is only one thing wrong with your analogy……and that is, that Fire-fighters aren’t God ……so they cannot PERMANENTLY save anybody……..but our Sovereign Omnipotent God can and does, permanently save us!!!:)
Eternal Perdition is er.......ETERNAL!!!:D
......and because Christians are saved from eternal perdition, our salvation cannot be temporary, like your fire victim example above.
Run to da hills
I would agree with Noel on this one. OSAS is a mith born from the Pits of Hell itself. Nowhere in the entire Bible does it teach this, If then the Bible does not teach it, from where does this teaching come. It comes from the minds of men, which is persuaded by satan, and is in fact "ANOTHER GOSPEL"…………
……………. I would have to give Satan a compliment on this docterine, he is truly very good at decieving people and having them believe things which are not Biblical, and believe that they are True. he is in fact a Master Deciever.
I agree that Satan is a Master Deceiver……..and among his most subtle deceptions are his attempts:-
1. To try and convince the unsaved that their sins are SO BAD that they cannot be saved.
2. To try and convince the unsaved that there is no point in being saved …..…because any sin they commit subsequently will ‘un-save’ them.
BOTH of the above are completely untrue!!!!:D
There are two basic positions on salvation:-
1. Our sinful state at the moment of death determines our salvation.
or
2. We are saved during our lives by believing on Jesus Christ.
If our sinful state determines our salvation then we would all appear to be doomed.....because we are all sinners and God will not tolerate ANY sin in His presence........and He will judge us accordingly!!!!!
There are numerous biblical passages which indicate that believing on Jesus Christ will save us....... thereby avoiding God's Judgement of our sins, which would otherwise condmn us.
We cannot mitigate our sins and therefore we cannot save ourselves.
Repenting of our sins, on it's own therefore won't save us.......so, we must place our trust in Jesus Christ to save us.
We can only believe on Jesus Christ while we are alive......and thus position two above would appear to be the correct one......
Run to da hills
The biggest downfall, and their will be weeping and gnashing of teeth because of it, of the phylosophy behind OSAS belief, is that if that is True, there is no need to get sin out of your life, no need to change for the better, no need to walk the walk, no need to obey the Word of God, because Once you are Saved.
Are you claiming that once you are saved that you COMPLETELY CEASE to sin ?
…….because I have yet to meet a sinless man, whether saved or unsaved…….
…….yes saved people try to avoid sin, yes they repent of sin…….but they are NOT sinless!!!
Can you see that under your position, NOBODY can be saved ……..because they will be almost instantly ‘unsaved’ when they commit their first sin after believing on Jesus Christ????
This is obviously not correct.....and the following quote from you shows it to be incorrect:-
Run to da hills
There are many uncertainties in this life, but your soul’s salvation does NOT need to be one of them. You can KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are saved and on your way to heaven. “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life” (1st John 5:13).
……so how can you KNOW that you are saved and on your way to Heaven……IF your next sin will ‘unsave’ you???
……or are you saying that the saved are sinless from the instant of their salvation????
……if so, I would like to meet such a sinless person!!!!
Run to da hills
2 Peter 2:20-22.
"If they have escaped [past tense] the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud” (2 Pet. 2:20-22).
Peter was clearly talking about people who KNEW Jesus Christ and His Word…….but who didn’t believe on Him…….and therefore WEREN’T (ever) saved!!!!!
PDN
Salvation, in the New Testament, is primarily from sin. Therefore, once the believer knows that his sins are forgiven, he is already saved.
Salvation is ONLY from Satan and Hell……and that is why Satan will move mountains to stop you being saved!!!
PDN
Yes, the New testament certainly warns of hell, but hell is not our major problem. Sin, for the Christian, is a bigger problem than hell. This is why Jesus had to die on the Cross, because a salvation that just wiped out hell without dealing with the problem of sin would be wholly inadequate.
Hell is the BIGGEST problem for the unsaved ……because they will go there if they die…..and believe me, nobody wants to go there!!!!
Jesus died on the cross for the remission of sin…….but His death did NOT wipe out Hell, for the unsaved……
…….and the good news is that each person can wipe out Hell for themselves by believing on Jesus Christ, repenting of their sins and being saved !!!
PDN
So, once a Christian knows that his sins are forgiven, he or she is saved and has already passed from death to life. We can enter eternal life now, without waiting until heaven.
The saved know that their past, present and future sins are forgiven.
The saved know that they have passed from spiritual death to spiritual life.
The saved are eternal beings….just like the unsaved….
…….but eternal life can only be entered when both the saved and the unsaved die …….with the saved entering eternal glory…..and the unsaved entering eternal perdition!!!0 -
Not sure.J C wrote:I agree that Satan is a Master Deceiver……..and among his most subtle deceptions are his attempts:-
1. To try and convince the unsaved that their sins are SO BAD that they cannot be saved.
2. To try and convince the unsaved that there is no point in being saved …..…because any sin they commit subsequently will ‘un-save’ them.
This is why Jesus specified in Matthew 7:13-23 that the way to salvation is a "Narrow way".
James gives a good answer to your question when he is addressing the BELIEVERS, "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (Spiritual death)". "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death (Spiritual death again) and cover a multitude of sins". James 5:19,20. It it up to the saved christian to avoid deliberatly sinning and "nip it in the bud" by repentance should he fall.J C wrote:Can you see that under your position, NOBODY can be saved ……..because they will be almost instantly ‘unsaved’ when they commit their first sin after believing on Jesus Christ???? :-
Jesus will TAKE THIS PRIVILAGE AWAY if you deliberatly fall away, ie Read the parable of the Vine "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are BURNT (John 15vs6)J C wrote:There are many uncertainties in this life, but your soul’s salvation does NOT need to be one of them. You can KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are saved and on your way to heaven. “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life” (1st John 5:13).
So my pre Christian livelyhood was selling counterfeit xxx videos, dealing in dope and getting pissed regularly, I get delivered from all this through the blood of Jesus Christ by repentance. A year I backslide and end up back doing the exact same thing again, Am I am still in my "saved" state? I would hardly think so. 1 Corrinthians vs6 is very specific. "Know ye not that the unrighteous SHALL NOT INHERIT the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind", Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.J C wrote:The saved know that their past, present and future sins are forgiven.
The saved know that they have passed from spiritual death to spiritual life.
!!!
I know well that if I "return to my Vomit", and deliberatly sin against God I will be danmed and worse off than the unsaved. We are warned in 1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" to devour means to "consume", "waste", "destroy", "annihilate". Peter is talking to the believer being "consumed" by Satan.J C wrote:so how can you KNOW that you are saved and on your way to Heaven……IF your next sin will ‘unsave’ you???!!!!
If they werent saved as you say why did Peter quote proverb 26 vs 11 in the same verse, ie “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud” Peter was obviously talking about the backslider of the believer, ie the saved person.J C wrote:Peter was clearly talking about people who KNEW Jesus Christ and His Word…….but who didn’t believe on Him…….and therefore WEREN’T (ever) saved!!!!!!
Hell is the BIGGEST problem for the unsaved ……because they will go there WHEN they die. (Hebrews 9vs27).J C wrote:Hell is the BIGGEST problem for the unsaved ……because they will go there if they die…..and believe me, nobody wants to go there!!!!!!!0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.Wicknight said:
1. God caused me to know the truth about Himself and my myself, and told me of His gracious offer of salvation in Christ. I repented and trusted in Him. His Spirit came to live in my heart, to comfort me with God's presence and power within.I would be interested, just for my own understanding, in how Christians actually view this salvation, ie what do they think actually happened/changed for them in their live, and how they view that in a salvation frame work.
2. I live my life to please Him. But I do not do so as well as I desire, for I find my old nature constantly tempting me to think of myself as the most important person and to live accordingly. It is a daily war. But it is one I know the Lord's help in waging. I may fall from time to time, but I rise again. My life is characterised by my present relationship to God (love to Him and my fellowman) not by my previous relationship (rebellion).
3. He will keep me from falling away completely, and will bring me home to Him when my day is over. Then I will be completely free from the presence and power of sin.
Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.0 -
Not sure.I think this passage clearly shows that salvation can be lost:Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.0
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Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.kelly1 wrote:I think this passage clearly shows that salvation can be lost:
I disagree with you here kelly, I think that this verse talks abour someone who knows the truth and rejects it, and not abour someone who responds to the truth and then rejects it.
Run-to-da-hills, as a Christian, you have a desire to please God and to do His will in your life. You are saved, yet you will sin. I spend my days trying to do God's will in all things, I understand that I am a 'work in progress'.
Yet I still sin, I can't help it. I don't commit any of the biggies that I used to do before salvation, my desire for those are now gone, some took longer than others.
But, since my acceptance of Christ as Lord, I have been saved, my desire has been to serve Him, hence my salvation is secure. I will slide, God knows I will slide, because of Christ I know that when I do slide that I am forgiven which allows me to relax and get on with it and not to feel guilt and legalism which would hinder my walk with God.0 -
Not sure.
My case was extreme, I got saved approximatly 20 years ago in my youth, it was a wonderful experience at the time, I tried to "save" all my friends, however I slid seriously and totally abandoned going to church, fellowship with other Christians and reading the Bible. I ended up dealing. It was not until I was in a personal circumstance that I cried out to God in my room for forgiveness and started to read the Bible again that I felt this wonderful experience that I had 20 years ago return.BrianCalgary wrote:Run-to-da-hills, as a Christian, you have a desire to please God and to do His will in your life. You are saved, yet you will sin. I spend my days trying to do God's will in all things, I understand that I am a 'work in progress'. Yet I still sin, I can't help it. I don't commit any of the biggies that I used to do before salvation, my desire for those are now gone, some took longer than others..
I know now from my own experience that no matter how far a saved person will fall away, God will always accept him back, however I do believe that if I would have died in my back sliden state, I would have some serious explaining to give on Judgement day and I would have been worse off than the unsaved because I had the knowledge of the truth and deliberatly turned my back on it.
My desire is now to serve him now , not to dwell on the past and get on with it, when I slide I keep it checked, I would not exactly "relax" as the spiritual battle is even more demanding for the Christian, I must be sober and vigilant and understand the tactics of the adversary.BrianCalgary wrote:But, since my acceptance of Christ as Lord, I have been saved, my desire has been to serve Him, hence my salvation is secure. I will slide, God knows I will slide, because of Christ I know that when I do slide that I am forgiven which allows me to relax and get on with it and not to feel guilt and legalism which would hinder my walk with God.0 -
BrianCalgary wrote:Yet I still sin, I can't help it. I don't commit any of the biggies that I used to do before salvation, my desire for those are now gone, some took longer than others.
But, since my acceptance of Christ as Lord, I have been saved, my desire has been to serve Him, hence my salvation is secure. I will slide, God knows I will slide, because of Christ I know that when I do slide that I am forgiven which allows me to relax and get on with it and not to feel guilt and legalism which would hinder my walk with God.
I'm not really following this logic.
Are you saying that no matter what sins you commit you a) won't feel bad about them because b) you are still saved.
Or are you saying that because you are saved you know you won't ever commit the "big one" sins that would stop you from being saved?0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.kelly1 said:
If it meant as you say, then the first time a Christian sins wilfully puts them beyond repentance. They are from that moment eternally doomed. No more sacrifice for sin remains. So much for Christ keeping His sheep safe.I think this passage clearly shows that salvation can be lost:
Quote:
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.
The alternative meaning: It refers to those who have come to a full knowedge of the truth about Christ and have professed faith in Him - then they face opposition of some sort, and make a decision to renounce Christ in order to enjoy this life. Compare this text with the earlier one in Hebrews 6.
For all of you interested in this subject, you might like to catch:
"IRON SHARPENS IRON" radio program (heard live every Monday through Friday, 3pm-4pm Eastern in New York and Connecticut on WNYG 1440AM Christian Radio--also heard worldwide via live-streaming on the Internet at www.wnygspiritofny.com). Missed broadcasts can be heardat www.sharpens.blogspot.com. Just scroll down to the date & topic you want to hear and click on where it says "MP3 Available Here" for each broadcast you desire to listen to.
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 10th:
DR. LAWRENCE W. CARRINO, founder & director of The Omega Institute (www.TheOmegaInstitute.com) & pastor of Grace Gospel Church in Patchogue, Long Island, NY (www.GraceGospelChurch.com) will address the theme: "PERSEVERANCE & PRESERVATION OF THE SAINTS: A Breeding Ground For Licentious Living???" The Reformed doctrine known as "Perseverance & Preservation of the Saints" is the teaching that authentic Christians, having been genuinly born again by the Spirit of God, will, with absolute certainty, persevere until the end of their earthly lives as disciples of Christ (although not without sin or the possibility of seasons of "back sliding"), bearing fruit of their conversion & profession, and will, without question, enter into Glory with Christ for eternity after death, because they are preserved by God Himself, and are prevented from falling away by His power.
In contrast, the Roman Catholic Church, and many with Arminian Evangelicalism (not to mention the majority of cults) believe this doctrine is the breeding ground for "sinful presumption" and licentious living. Dr. Carrino, a Reformed apologist who strongly affirms "Perseverance & Preservation of the Saints", will seek to disprove this claim by opponents of Reformed Theology, but will also warn of the dangers of those who twist this biblical teaching into a falsehood which maintains that faith need not bear fruit in order to be a saving faith and a guarantee of Heaven.0 -
Run_to_da_hills wrote:My case was extreme, I got saved approximatly 20 years ago in my youth, it was a wonderful experience at the time, I tried to "save" all my friends, however I slid seriously and totally abandoned going to church, fellowship with other Christians and reading the Bible. I ended up dealing. It was not until I was in a personal circumstance that I cried out to God in my room for forgiveness and started to read the Bible again that I felt this wonderful experience that I had 20 years ago return.
I know now from my own experience that no matter how far a saved person will fall away, God will always accept him back, however I do believe that if I would have died in my back sliden state, I would have some serious explaining to give on Judgement day and I would have been worse off than the unsaved because I had the knowledge of the truth and deliberatly turned my back on it.
My desire is now to serve him now , not to dwell on the past and get on with it, when I slide I keep it checked, I would not exactly "relax" as the spiritual battle is even more demanding for the Christian, I must be sober and vigilant and understand the tactics of the adversary.
What a great testimony. I love to hear about people salvation experiences. Thanks.0 -
Wicknight wrote:I'm not really following this logic.
Are you saying that no matter what sins you commit you a) won't feel bad about them because b) you are still saved.?
I feel bad about all the sins I commit. I just don't worry about my salvation, because it is secure.Wicknight wrote:Or are you saying that because you are saved you know you won't ever commit the "big one" sins that would stop you from being saved?
If I were to slide back into my former life in a small way I would still be saved. But it is a moot point because I have no desire to commit those sins anymore.
The Holy Spirit has worked wonderfully to remove those desires from me.
But in the end it is what is in the heart that counts, my heart is to serve God and to accept His grace.0 -
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BrianCalgary wrote:I feel bad about all the sins I commit. I just don't worry about my salvation, because it is secure.
If I were to slide back into my former life in a small way I would still be saved. But it is a moot point because I have no desire to commit those sins anymore.
The Holy Spirit has worked wonderfully to remove those desires from me.
But in the end it is what is in the heart that counts, my heart is to serve God and to accept His grace.
So there is nothing you can do, ever, that means you won't be saved?
Is that supported by the Bible, or is it your opinion?0 -
Not sure.
Forgive me for saying this Brian, but your position seems a little complacent. There is nothing in scripture that guarantees you will be saved. We are all human and we are all subject to temptation. Jesus never promised that our struggle against sin would cease when we decide to follow Him.BrianCalgary wrote:If I were to slide back into my former life in a small way I would still be saved. But it is a moot point because I have no desire to commit those sins anymore.
The Holy Spirit has worked wonderfully to remove those desires from me.
Why did Christ pray for Peter if He was already saved? See:Luke 22:31 And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not.
See also:Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
1 Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
1 Cor 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
God bless,
Noel.0 -
Not sure.For the people who believe in OSAS, here are two passages from scripture
that appear to contradict each other. Which one is true?
ORRomans 10:9 For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Is it right to choose the first and dismiss the second? People need to realize that up to the time of Calvin, OSAS was either unheard of or heretical. Even Luther didn't preach OSAS! So why believe it? Isn't it just a bit crazy to suggest that the Church had got it wrong for about 1500 years and that Calvin discovered the truth of the matter??
God bless,
Noel.0 -
kelly1 wrote:For the people who believe in OSAS, here are two passages from scripture
that appear to contradict each other. Which one is true?
My reading of Matt 7:21 is that Jesus is talking about people who proclaim he is a lord without recognizing that God is the Lord and that people must follow God. Don't think it applies to OSAS either way.0 -
Not sure.kelly1 wrote:For the people who believe in OSAS, here are two passages from scripture that appear to contradict each other. Which one is true?
Romans 10:9 For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
OR
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
To answer the question, read 2nd Thessalonians 1vs8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that KNOW NOT GOD, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ"
Those that "KNOW NOT GOD" are the unsaved, those not born again, that reject christ as their lord and saviour (Romans 10vs9).
Those that "OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL" of our lord Jesus Christ are the saved that deliberatly do not obey the Gospel, the backsliders, the burnt vine branches, those that have given up their faith and have fallen back into the world. (These would be the very ones spoken of in Matthew 7vs 21).0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.Run to da hills
This is why Jesus specified in Matthew 7:13-23 that the way to salvation is a "Narrow way".
…..and the ‘narrow way’ is Jesus Christ and Him crucified!!!
Originally Posted by J C
Can you see that under your position, NOBODY can be saved ……..because they will be almost instantly ‘unsaved’ when they commit their first sin after believing on Jesus Christ????
Run to da hills
James gives a good answer to your question when he is addressing the BELIEVERS, "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (Spiritual death)". "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death (Spiritual death again) and cover a multitude of sins". James 5:19,20. It it up to the saved christian to avoid deliberatly sinning and "nip it in the bud" by repentance should he fall.
The KJV of James 5:19-20 is “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.”
The error that you are committing, is to assume that the 'death' referred to in these verses is spiritual death.
Sin causes physical death (which applies to both the saved and the unsaved)……but spiritual death is the exclusive state of the unsaved!!!
The saved Christian should avoid sinning because of it’s negative temporal effects and out of love and respect for God and His Word…….but one way or the other they will always remain saved.
Originally Posted by J C
There are many uncertainties in this life, but your soul’s salvation does NOT need to be one of them. You can KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are saved and on your way to heaven. “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life” (1st John 5:13).
Run to da hills
Jesus will TAKE THIS PRIVILAGE AWAY if you deliberatly fall away, ie Read the parable of the Vine "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are BURNT (John 15vs6)
The saved ALWAYS abide in Jesus Christ (and His Holy Spirit in them)…….Jesus was referring to the people who do not abide in Him i.e. the unsaved in this verse…………and EVERYONE He was addressing were unsaved at that time, because Jesus had not yet died on the cross for sin.......and so salvation had not yet begun at that time!!!!
Run to da hills
So my pre Christian livelyhood was selling counterfeit xxx videos, dealing in dope and getting pissed regularly, I get delivered from all this through the blood of Jesus Christ by repentance. A year I backslide and end up back doing the exact same thing again, Am I am still in my "saved" state? I would hardly think so. 1 Corrinthians vs6 is very specific. "Know ye not that the unrighteous SHALL NOT INHERIT the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind", Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
……and if you read on……. you will find that 1 Cor 6:11-12 says “ And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.”
In other words such HABITUALLY sinful states were the condition of many Christians BEFORE they were saved……. but after being saved these sins are wiped away.
In addition, because all things are lawful onto a Christian, all FUTURE sins are also wiped away…….but The Saved should refrain from licence and habitual sinning.
Because the Saved are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, they will try to avoid sin (but they may not always succeed)!!!
Jesus confirms the 'once saved always saved' state of the Christian in the following verses:-
Jn 10:27-29” My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Run to da hills
I know well that if I "return to my Vomit", and deliberatly sin against God I will be danmed and worse off than the unsaved. We are warned in 1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" to devour means to "consume", "waste", "destroy", "annihilate". Peter is talking to the believer being "consumed" by Satan.
A dog who returns to his vomit hasn’t changed his state, and is STILL a dog………so, people who gladly ‘return to their vomit’ also HAVEN’T changed their state and they haven't been saved!!!!
The saved may sin……but they always regret it and repent of it.
Satan ultimately has no power over a saved Christian who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit…….we are told to resist him and he shall flee ......just like he had to flee when Jesus resisted him in the desert and at the temple in Mt 4:1-11.
Satan may devour the unsaved...who have no power (and sometimes no inclination) to rebuke him!!!
Run to da hills
I know well that if I "return to my Vomit", and deliberatly sin against God I will be danmed and worse off than the unsaved. We are warned in 1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" to devour means to "consume", "waste", "destroy", "annihilate". Peter is talking to the believer being "consumed" by Satan.
…..so let’s see WHO Peter was talking about in relation to ‘returning to their vomit’….
2Pe 2:17-22 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
These are ‘wells without water’ i.e. unsaved people who claim to be Christians.
They have escaped some of the physical punishments of the world, through following Biblical principles and the Word of Jesus Christ, but they haven’t believed on Jesus to forgive their sins ….and thus they are not saved.
Originally Posted by J C
Hell is the BIGGEST problem for the unsaved ……because they will go there if they die…..and believe me, nobody wants to go there!!!!!!!
Run to da hills
Hell is the BIGGEST problem for the unsaved ……because they will go there WHEN they die. (Hebrews 9vs27).
As I have said, Hell is the BIGGEST problem for the unsaved ……because they will go there IF they die, and they haven't been saved!!!
Kelly1
I think this passage clearly shows that salvation can be lost:
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.
This was again addressed to the UNSAVED, who continue to set their face against salvation, despite having knowledge of Jesus Christ as the means of salvation. This verse points out that “there is now left no sacrifice for sins”……so that we cannot save ourselves by good works or sacrifices to cover our sins..….but only by believing on Jesus Christ.
Kelly1
Forgive me for saying this Brian, but your position seems a little complacent. There is nothing in scripture that guarantees you will be saved. We are all human and we are all subject to temptation. Jesus never promised that our struggle against sin would cease when we decide to follow Him.
We are all human and we are all subject to temptation. Jesus never promised that our struggle against sin would cease when we decide to follow Him……but He will permanently save (form eternal perdition) everyone who believes on Him!!!
Kelly1
Why did Christ pray for Peter if He was already saved? See:
Luke 22:31 And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not.
Peter WASN’T saved at the time……..Jesus hadn’t died on the cross for the remission of sin at that stage……so salvation wasn’t possible for anybody at that time…….and Judas was subsequently lost!!!
Kelly1
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven
These are the unsaved people who claim to be Christians, who are full of outward show but who haven’t believed on Jesus Christ to save them.
Kelly1
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved
This will be the situation during the End Times when some people will be saved by believing on Jesus Christ AFTER enduring the tribulation.
Kelly1
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away
These are the unsaved people who claim to be Christians,who are full of outward show but who “have no root” …….because they haven’t believed on Jesus Christ to save them.
Kelly1
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Saved Christians are not protected from physical tribulation……..but the fact that they know that they are saved provides great comfort to them during it!!!
Kelly1
Romans 11:20-22 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Paul was referring here, to some unsaved members of Gentile NATIONS being cut off ……and NOT the individually saved members of these nations ……..who were already saved ….. and therefore guaranteed to continue in their salvation.
Kelly1
1 Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
The word ‘castaway’ as used in the context of this verse means that Paul wanted to avoid being ‘rejected’ or cast away, (by the people that Paul had preached to).
Kelly1
1 Cor 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Paul is using something similar to the well know proverb ‘that pride comes before a fall’ in this verse.
However, such a ‘fall’ will NOT ‘unsave’ a saved Christian….and Paul confirms that he is actually above the law because he is saved in 1Cor 10:23…..but this does not give him licence to sin because of the negative temporal consequences and the scandal that would result from such sinning.
1Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
Kelly1
Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling
The Holy Spirit indwells all saved Christians……who do indeed sense the presence of God within themselves .......with fear and trembling (or reverent awe) at the enormous privilege (and responsibility) that such a close personal relationship with God confers.
Kelly1
For the people who believe in OSAS, here are two passages from scripture
that appear to contradict each other. Which one is true?
Romans 10:9 For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved
OR
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven
They are BOTH true and not contradictory.
Rom 10:9 confirms that confessing your belief that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead …..and therefore that He is the Redeemer capable of forgiving sin will save you……it is the same advice given by Paul in Acts 16:31 to say but the words "I believe on Jesus Christ" and you WILL be saved.
Mat 7:21 confirms that there will be unsaved people who claim to be Christians, who will make a great show of external piety…….but who haven’t placed their faith in Jesus Christ to save them.
Run to da hills
read 2nd Thessalonians 1vs8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that KNOW NOT GOD, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ"
Those that "KNOW NOT GOD" are the unsaved, those not born again, that reject christ as their lord and saviour (Romans 10vs9).
Those that "OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL" of our lord Jesus Christ are the saved that deliberatly do not obey the Gospel, the backsliders, the burnt vine branches, those that have given up their faith and have fallen back into the world.
Those who ‘know not God’ and ‘obey not the Gospel’ are the unsaved. The saved are indwelt with the Holy Spirit and therefore they know God and they also TRY to obey the Gospel.
NOBODY will succeed in perfectly obeying the Gospel …….but the saved STRIVE to do so.
Run for da hills
I know now from my own experience that no matter how far a saved person will fall away, God will always accept him back, however I do believe that if I would have died in my back sliden state, I would have some serious explaining to give on Judgement day and I would have been worse off than the unsaved because I had the knowledge of the truth and deliberatly turned my back on it
'Backsliding' should be avoided because of our love for God, because of the scandal that it may cause to fellow Christians and the unsaved, because of the temporal punishment that it may trigger from Law Enforcement Agencies and because of the physical and psychological trauma (including accelerated disease and physical death) that it may cause the Backslider and their fellow man !!!
......BUT 'backsliding' will NOT 'unsave' somebody, who is already saved!!!0 -
Not sure.
Yes this is obvious and of course if you fall back into sin and backslide into your old ways of life you are no longer living the "narrow way".Run to da hills
This is why Jesus specified in Matthew 7:13-23 that the way to salvation is a "Narrow way". and the ‘narrow way’ is Jesus Christ and Him crucified!!!
I already quoted James on this one, Sin if left unchecked will build up and lead to spiritual death. A newly saved person knows well when he sins, God will convict him and lead him to repentance, and he will seek God for forgiveness (1 John 1vs9) If on the other hand the person decides to ignore Gods plan and carry on knowingly sinning he will fooling himself and will be worse off than if he was saved if he dies in his sin.Can you see that under your position, NOBODY can be saved ……..because they will be almost instantly ‘unsaved’ when they commit their first sin after believing on Jesus Christ????[/I][/B]The KJV of James 5:19-20 is “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.”
The error that you are committing, is to assume that the 'death' referred to in these verses is spiritual death.
Sin causes physical death (which applies to both the saved and the unsaved)……but spiritual death is the exclusive state of the unsaved.
Not true, the saved can end up in the same condemnation as the Devil. Read 1 timothy 3vs6, when the Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy he warned about new converts taking up the office of a Bishop. "Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil". I Timothy 3:6
Here we see the importance of spiritual maturity when it comes time to appoint elders to the local assembly. Timothy is warned that a recent convert should not be placed in a position of spiritual authority because his pride could cause him to fall under the same judgement/condemnation of the devil. We know that the devil's judgement is none other than the lake of fire. I'll post this in several translations, so you can really get the feel of this passage from the Greek language:
I Timothy 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. (NIV)
I Timothy 3:6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.(NASB)The saved Christian should avoid sinning because of it’s negative temporal effects and out of love and respect for God and His Word…….but one way or the other they will always remain saved.
Paul again addressing Timothy, "For some have already turned aside after Satan".1 Timothy 5:15 Note: They no longer followed Christ. To come to Christ is not a one-time deal and it is all over with. You can turn aside after Satan just like these people did. Don't do it!
2nd Thessalonians 1vs8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that KNOW NOT GOD, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ"
How can the unsaved "OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL" of our Lord Jesus Christ" IF THEY DO NOT KNOW THE GOSPEL TO BEGIN WITH, Im talking of Athiests, Muslims, Hindus, even "Christian religions", etc. The Apostle Paul is addressing those that KNOW the gospel, ie the SAVED and who do not obey it.Those who ‘know not God’ and ‘obey not the Gospel’ are the unsaved. The saved are indwelt with the Holy Spirit and therefore they know God and they also TRY to obey the Gospel.
NOBODY will succeed in perfectly obeying the Gospel …….but the saved STRIVE to do so.'Backsliding' should be avoided because of the scandal that it may cause to fellow Christians and the unsaved, because of the temporal punishment that it may trigger from Law Enforcement Agencies and because of the physical and psychological trauma (including accelerated disease and physical death) that it may cause the Backslider and their fellow man!!!
BUT 'backsliding' will NOT 'unsave' somebody, who is already saved!!!
Backsliding MUST be avoided at all costs because not alone dose it put Christ to shame, it will also send your soul to hell! "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries". Hebrews 10:260 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.Originally Posted by J C
This is why Jesus specified in Matthew 7:13-23 that the way to salvation is a "Narrow way". and the ‘narrow way’ is Jesus Christ and Him crucified!!!
Run to da hills
Yes this is obvious and of course if you fall back into sin and backslide into your old ways of life you are no longer living the "narrow way".
The ‘narrow way’ of Jesus Christ and Him crucified is the MEANS of our salvation!!!
Originally Posted by J C
Can you see that under your position, NOBODY can be saved ……..because they will be almost instantly ‘unsaved’ when they commit their first sin after believing on Jesus Christ????
Run to da hills
I already quoted James on this one, Sin if left unchecked will build up and lead to spiritual death. A newly saved person knows well when he sins, God will convict him and lead him to repentance, and he will seek God for forgiveness (1 John 1vs9) If on the other hand the person decides to ignore Gods plan and carry on knowingly sinning he will fooling himself and will be worse off than if he was saved if he dies in his sin.
If sin is unchecked in EITHER the saved or the unsaved it can lead to PHYSICAL death!!!
A saved person who repents, will be saved further temporal punishment by not repeating his sin.
If on the other hand the person decides to carry on sinning, he will run the risk of further temporal punishment up to and including premature physical death for his sin…….but his salvation will remain intact.
In point of fact, 1Jo 1:8-10 confirms that saved Christians who deny that they are sinners, and in CONTINUOUS need of Gods forgiveness, (which comes from salvation) are deceived!!
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Run to da hills
the saved can end up in the same condemnation as the Devil. Read 1 timothy 3vs6, when the Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy he warned about new converts taking up the office of a Bishop.
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. I Timothy 3:6
Here we see the importance of spiritual maturity when it comes time to appoint elders to the local assembly. Timothy is warned that a recent convert should not be placed in a position of spiritual authority because his pride could cause him to fall under the same judgement/condemnation of the devil.
OK, so let’s look at the qualifications for a bishop in I Tim 1-7:-
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
ALL of the above are QUALIFICATIONS/CONDITIONS to be looked for, in selecting a bishop, so as to avoid scandal amongst both Christians and the unsaved, thereby ensuring that the work of salvation isn’t set back by an inappropriate choice of man for bishop.
This proves that the saved (including bishops) may fall into sin…….but it doesn’t indicate that they will lose their salvation because of sin.
Paul warns Timothy that a novice may have so much pride that HIS CONGREGATION may reject/condemn him as bishop, just like THEY reject/condemn the devil for the same vice.
The spiritual states of the saved and the devil are not comparable……the devil is eternally and irrevocably condemned while the saved are eternally and irrevocably saved!!!!
Originally Posted by J C
The saved Christian should avoid sinning because of it’s negative temporal effects and out of love and respect for God and His Word…….but, one way or the other, they will always remain saved
Run to da hills
Paul again addressing Timothy, "For some have already turned aside after Satan".1 Timothy 5:15 Note: They no longer followed Christ. To come to Christ is not a one-time deal and it is all over with. You can turn aside after Satan just like these people did. Don't do it!
Every time we sin (no matter how minor) we 'turn aside after Satan'!!
So, let’s look at 1 Tim 5:11-15
I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
For some are already turned aside after Satan.
This admonishment is addressed to younger widows, with the advice that marriage will help them to avoid sin, especially because some young widows were already leading sinful lives.
Your advice to avoid sin is indeed good advice.
'Backsliding' should be avoided because of our love for God, because of the scandal that it may cause to fellow Christians and the unsaved, because of the temporal punishment that it may trigger from Law Enforcement Agencies and because of the physical and psychological trauma (including accelerated disease and physical death) that it may cause the 'Backslider' and their fellow man!!!
......BUT 'backsliding' will NOT 'unsave' somebody, who is already saved!!!
Saved Christians who deny that they are sinners, and in CONTINUOUS need of Gods forgiveness, (which comes from salvation) are deceived!!
Saved Christians are under Gods Grace and not His Law.....and they therefore remain exempt from God's Judgement for sin.....not because of any merit on their parts lest any man should boast!!!
The unsaved remain under God's Law ..... and therefore under His condemnation for sin!!!
God Bless
J C0 -
Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.Run_to_da_hills wrote: »How can the unsaved "OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL" of our Lord Jesus Christ" IF THEY DO NOT KNOW THE GOSPEL TO BEGIN WITH, Im talking of Athiests, Muslims, Hindus, even "Christian religions", etc. The Apostle Paul is addressing those that KNOW the gospel, ie the SAVED and who do not obey it.
There are many unsaved people who intellectually know the Gospel of Jesus Christ......but they aren't saved because they haven't relied on Jesus Christ to cover their sins.Run_to_da_hills wrote: »Backsliding MUST be avoided at all costs because not alone dose it put Christ to shame, it will also send your soul to hell! "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries". Hebrews 10:26
As I have said this verse was addressed to the UNSAVED, who continue to set their face against salvation, despite having knowledge of Jesus Christ as the means of salvation. This verse points out that “there is now left no sacrifice for sins”……so that we cannot save ourselves by good works or sacrifices….but only by believing on Jesus Christ.
Because EVERY Christian 'backslides' to some degree (no matter how minor, in most cases)......the alternative is therefore to accept that the saved lose their salvation every time they sin .....which is pretty much 24/7 up to the moment of death.......unlesss you have discovered the secret of a sinless life???
However, such a conclusion would 'fly in the face' of Jesus Christ's assurances to the saved in Jn 10:27-29
”My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."0 -
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Not sure.So in other words there is a different rule book for those who are "saved" and have backslid and have deliberately disobey the Gospel, ie stealing, getting Drunk, and having having unlawful sex despite the fact that it clearly states in 1Corrinthians 6 verse 9 11 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God".
Quoting from James again, sin builds up and when full blown brings forth death. "A new person in Christ" knows well when he sins against god, he is convicted and will almost immediately ask God for forgiveness, however as time goes on the Backslider he may be tempted, sin eventually starts to dominate his life to such an extent that he even forgets the fact that he was ever saved in beginning, he no longer fellowships, attends church or reads the bible, this was my case for almost 20 years, However I was fortunate that I was led into a situation that I had to cry out to God for forgiveness, I heard his voice and followed him. Others would have been less fortunate.Because EVERY Christian 'backslides' to some degree (no matter how minor, in most cases).the alternative is therefore to accept that the saved lose their salvation every time they sin .And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
This verse would explain that no other person can take away your salvation, for example, The Christians that were burnt alive at the stake in their millions by the crusaders of the Church of Rome for denying its teachings. No matter what destruction that was caused to their physical bodies their souls was saved and in Gods hands.
Did the Lord Jesus teach that one moment of faith would guarantee eternal salvation? Speaking to His disciples as He was sending them out to preach the gospel and heal the sick, He warns them, “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: BUT HE THAT ENDURETH TO THE END SHALL BE SAVED." (Matt. 10:22)
In John 8:31-32 we see Jesus speaking to some Jews that the Bible says had believed in Him. Jesus tells these believers, “if ye continue in my word, then are ye My disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” Jesus tells these believers that THEY MUST CONTINUE in His word to come to know the truth and to be made free. In Luke 8:13 we see Jesus in the process of explaining the parable of the sower to His disciples. He makes the point to them that there are some people who “believe” for a while but in time of temptation or trial, they fall away. Can this statement be any plainer from our Lord? Here we need to ask ourselves a question, can someone fall away from something if they had never been there in the first place? It doesn’t appear that Jesus believed that one moment of faith would guarantee eternal salvation as many teachers today believe and teaching.
To conclude, If I were to name two doctrines that I felt were responsible for sending more souls to hell I would name one of them as OSAS and the other one Infant baptism.0
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