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UN refusal to intervene in "The Troubles"

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    #32
    mongoman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 669 ✭✭✭mongoman


    secondopinion wrote: »
    I'm afraid that the policy of The UK State was to contain paramilitary violence and to develop a political solution.

    Are you serious? Judging by that comment you are clearly not aware of how much the British directed and guided Loyalist paramilitary violence throughout the years. Ever hear of Brain Nelson? Amongst other things, as a British agent he went to South Africa to purchase and organise arms shipments for the UDA/UFF. Christ! if that was the British developing a political solution? I wouldn't like to see them running a dirty war, oh wait a sec...............


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    #33
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    secondopinion wrote: »
    ...........

    (iv) Stereotyping of The UDR despite it's relatively low kill rate.

    (..........

    From 1975......

    "since the beginning of the current campaign, the best single source of weapons (and the only significant source of modern weapons) for protestant extremist groups has been the UDR"
    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/publicrecords/1973/subversion_in_the_udr.pdf

    By 1992, 19 were convicted of murder, 150 or more other serious offences.


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    #34
    secondopinion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 85 ✭✭secondopinion


    mongoman wrote: »
    Are you serious? Judging by that comment you are clearly not aware of how much the British directed and guided Loyalist paramilitary violence throughout the years. Ever hear of Brain Nelson? Amongst other things, as a British agent he went to South Africa to purchase and organise arms shipments for the UDA/UFF. Christ! if that was the British developing a political solution? I wouldn't like to see them running a dirty war, oh wait a sec...............

    See my point above regarding Nationalist half truths.


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    #35
    secondopinion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 85 ✭✭secondopinion


    Nodin wrote: »
    From 1975......

    "since the beginning of the current campaign, the best single source of weapons (and the only significant source of modern weapons) for protestant extremist groups has been the UDR"
    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/publicrecords/1973/subversion_in_the_udr.pdf

    By 1992, 19 were convicted of murder, 150 or more other serious offences.

    19 convicted of murder whilst almost 300 of their members were murdered during a ruthless terrorist campaign carried out over 30 years? I think you've proved my point. Thankyou.


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    #36
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    secondopinion wrote: »
    That is my fear WC. There is a huge amount of conflict era propaganda still floating around and the vast majority of it emanates from The Nationalist side of the issue. Obviously, The UK State no longer cares as it sees the issue as solved and has moved on. Unionism has always seemed less interested in propaganda than Nationalism - perhaps reflecting different cultural environments. But within Nationalism there is a complete inability to accept factual realities and place them within a relevant context.
    ...
    Now, if this only applied to SF apologists desperate to sanitise PIRA's war and that of their leaders, I wouldn't be very concerned. But unfortunately, it would appear that many in The Republic (and many Nationalists in NI) sign up to some elements of this fake historical narrative - even those who claim to despise SF and The IRA. This is what worries me. Future generations of Irish people could buy into this false narrative and this could lead to further conflict.

    I don't think you need to worry too much, Ireland is getting more mature and better able to stare at its own history. Our relationship to Northern Ireland and Britain is stronger and I would certainly be of the opinion that history about the Troubles should be written by all involved and to remove any bias or misinformation.

    With the visit of the British Queen last year and the tearing down of the "special" relationship between catholic church and Government, I would think that unionists would feel a little more at ease. The idea of reunification and whitewashing history to give a pro-ira stance is the last thing on most peoples minds to be fair.

    The only people I saw being stuck in the past and protesting the British Queens visit was SF and a good few junkies.


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    #37
    john reilly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 409 ✭✭john reilly


    secondopinon. you really had no idea what was occuring in the north of ireland. the security forces where completely sectarian organisations who systematically tortured their irish nationalist neighbours. secondly the british army didnt kill all the republican leaders because even they werent stupid enough to think they could defeat republicans this way.


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    #38
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    secondopinion wrote: »
    19 convicted of murder whilst almost 300 of their members were murdered during a ruthless terrorist campaign carried out over 30 years? I think you've proved my point. Thankyou.

    Not really. There's also the passing of information to loyalist paramilitaries, the passing of weapons etc. All told, it's a rather telling picture. Rather inevitable, given the origins of the organisation, and all too preventable.

    Besides, I thought you wanted to establish that there was " no comparison between the morality of PIRA and The Security Forces"?

    You still haven't clarified whether or not you're saying that the RUC and the B-specials were an ordinary, representative police force?


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    #39
    john reilly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 409 ✭✭john reilly


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    I don't think you need to worry too much, Ireland is getting more mature and better able to stare at its own history. Our relationship to Northern Ireland and Britain is stronger and I would certainly be of the opinion that history about the Troubles should be written by all involved and to remove any bias or misinformation.

    With the visit of the British Queen last year and the tearing down of the "special" relationship between catholic church and Government, I would think that unionists would feel a little more at ease. The idea of reunification and whitewashing history to give a pro-ira stance is the last thing on most peoples minds to be fair.

    The only people I saw being stuck in the past and protesting the British Queens visit was SF and a good few junkies.

    didnt see all the crowds lining the street to welcome her either. presumably most felt protesting some old hasbean shuffling around while f.g politicans kissed her hole just wasnt worth the effort


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    #40
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    john reilly wrote: »
    didnt see all the crowds lining the street to welcome her either. presumably most felt protesting some old hasbean shuffling around while f.g politicans kissed her hole just wasnt worth the effort

    They were in Cork :P

    As for Dublin, no public event was planned and security was the main thing, hence why people did not gather.

    But junkies will turn up for anything when they get paid, I wonder if anyone paid them???


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    #41
    john reilly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 409 ✭✭john reilly


    secondopinion wrote: »
    Who are these 'others' you speak of Nodin? Irish Nationalists and their fellow travellers? Do they ever present compelling evidence of widespread collusion or high level complicity in said collusion? I've certainly never seen evidence of either - very much the opposite in fact.

    You do agree there's no comparison between the morality of PIRA and The Security Forces I presume?

    heres something we can agree on. The IRA were volunteer freedom fighters who used intelligence and bravery to fight one of the biggest richest armies in the world. the british army on the other hand was run by stuck up twats who knew are cared nothing about the irish people. on the ground the british army was made up of people too stupid to get a real job or dirtbags forced to join to stay out of jail. as for all the loyalist paramilataries such as uvf, uda, ruc, lvf, uff, e.t.c well these were simply
    sectarian killing machines, who killed innocent catholics because they were afraid to engage the IRA


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    #42
    votecounts
    Registered Users Posts: 2,617 ✭✭✭votecounts


    Why is anyone responding to Secondopinion, he is anti irish and obviously trolling. A ban should have been put in place awhile back.


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    #43
    john reilly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 409 ✭✭john reilly


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    They were in Cork :P

    As for Dublin, no public event was planned and security was the main thing, hence why people did not gather.

    But junkies will turn up for anything when they get paid, I wonder if anyone paid them???


    most likely the brits to make her feel at home


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    #44
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    They were in Cork :P

    As for Dublin, no public event was planned and security was the main thing, hence why people did not gather.

    But junkies will turn up for anything when they get paid, I wonder if anyone paid them???

    They were thrown out of the garden of remembrance. To bulk up the numbers some genius in Eirigi thought to give them flags etc


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    #45
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    john reilly wrote: »
    [/B]

    most likely the brits to make her feel at home

    Heh, were the Brits paying SF too? They were right beside the junkies. :P


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    #46
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    votecounts wrote: »
    Why is anyone responding to Secondopinion, he is anti irish and obviously trolling. A ban should have been put in place awhile back.

    I don't see any trolling on this thread from the poster. He has a different view but nothing that I would consider trolling. He is also responding to posters backing up his view, so I don't see why you would ban him for this thread.


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    #47
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,241 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    secondopinion wrote: »
    (i) Only soldiers are entitled to kill soldiers under international law. Non-military personnel killing soldiers is simply murder. Militant Republicans such as PIRA did not wear uniforms, openly display their weapons, or follow any of the rules of war (internationally recognised) and as such the soldiers they killed were in fact murdered.
    As what was essentially an internal conflict, some of those rules don't apply.


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    #48
    Dr Galen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    Firstly, while we really appreciate the help from posters in identifying re-regs and trolls, it's really not acceptable that posts are made in threads making accusations of this nature. That is in fact a breach of the charter. Report the post, send us a PM if you think it is taking too long, but please don't bring it into the threads.

    Secondly, I'm closing this thread as it is was really being driven by a certain poster who is now banned and tbh I can see train wreck on the horizon. As always, I'm open to being persuaded otherwise via PM if anyone feels strongly enough.

    Cheers

    DrG


This discussion has been closed.
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