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If you were a father , could you accept this decision?

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  • 26-10-2013 3:48pm
    #1
    KenSwee
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭


    Lasse Burholt, 39, who was driving at 125km/h in an 80km/h zone, was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in Danish court but he received a fine of €1,340 and put on probation for three years.

    I wouldn't be able to accept that if I was their father. Not a chance.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1025/482683-denmark-crash/


«13

Comments

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    #2
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    KenSwee wrote: »
    I wouldn't be able to accept that if I was their father. Not a chance.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1025/482683-denmark-crash/
    You might not accept it but there's nothing you could do.


  • Options
    #3
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,599 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    She was also to blame.


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    #4
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    errlloyd wrote: »
    She was also to blame.
    To a different order of magnitude. He made a conscious decision to drive at 125 km/hr. in an 80km/hr. zone. All drivers making such decisions must be aware that unexpected hazards can arise.

    The woman unconsciously made an error that turned her car into the hazard. Slightly different situation.

    Really cruel to have brought charges against a mother who has lost her children in this way. At least some common sense has prevailed, now they are dropped.


  • Options
    #5
    token101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,050 ✭✭✭token101


    She was arguably more to blame than he was. It seems fair to be honest.


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    #6
    The_Pretender
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭The_Pretender


    It would be interesting to see how people reacted if it was the other way around, and it had been the mother who was speeding along and the man who had taken the wrong left turn.

    They were most definitely both to blame.


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    #7
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,599 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    The woman unconsciously made an error that turned her car into the hazard. Slightly different situation.

    Remember they drive on the right over there. So an illegal left turn is our equivalent of an illegal right turn.


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    #8
    YbFocus
    Registered Users Posts: 8,480 ✭✭✭YbFocus


    He must accept it, he must also accept that she made a bad decision to pull across the path of the car which ultimately caused the problem.

    She should have been able to read the speed of the car and it's closing speed regardless of how fast it was going.

    He may have been wrong to be doing that speed but it was her who caused the crash ultimately.


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    #9
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    errlloyd wrote: »
    Remember they drive on the right over there. So an illegal left turn is our equivalent of an illegal right turn.
    That'snot really relevant.

    I was distinguishing between an error, and a conscious decision to drive considerably faster than the speed limit.

    Part of the reason the speed limit exists is because other road users will inevitably make errors, and we all need time to respond, beep hard, and drive away safely.


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    #10
    boomkatalog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,598 ✭✭✭boomkatalog


    They were both to blame, but its easy to make a wrong turn accidentally. How does one accidentally speed that much over the limit?

    Having said that, I wasn't there, the turn could be well signposted and obviously a stupid thing to do.

    Pretty irrelevant anyway, unfortunately it can't be undone and everyone has to live with their decisions.


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    #11
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,599 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    That'snot really relevant.

    It could not be more relevant... A right turn over there is a very simple maneuver that is almost impossible to screw up, a left turn over there requires crossing an oncoming Lane of traffic.

    She turned in front of him without looking properly. We don't know why, but we know she was also to blame. I think it'd be pretty unjust to send him to jail and let her off completely.


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    #12
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    errlloyd wrote: »
    It could not be more relevant...
    That's not relevant to what I am saying. You clearly read the first line and then stopped.

    I am distinguishing between an unconscious error, and a deliberate decision to do a particular thing, knowing it is wrong, being alive to the inherent danger of carrying on.


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    #13
    tritium
    Registered Users Posts: 7,416 ✭✭✭tritium


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »

    Really cruel to have brought charges against a mother who has lost her children in this way. At least some common sense has prevailed, now they are dropped.

    Why is it cruel to hold her accountable for her actions? Common sense didn't prevail here, someone just bottled the decision


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    #14
    YbFocus
    Registered Users Posts: 8,480 ✭✭✭YbFocus


    tritium wrote: »
    Why is it cruel to hold her accountable for her actions? Common sense didn't prevail here, someone just bottled the decision

    +1

    She made a silly mistake and should be held equally responsible for pulling across the path of the oncoming car. If not solely responsible!

    Yes she lost her kids, but because of her mistake.


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    #15
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,293 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    It was a terrible tragedy. Putting the guy in jail would serve no purpose other than revenge as he is not exactly a menace to society. I am sure living with himself is sentence enough.


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    #16
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,599 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    That's not relevant to what I am saying. You clearly read the first line and then stopped.

    I am distinguishing between an unconscious error, and a deliberate decision to do a particular thing, knowing it is wrong, big ng alive to the inherent danger of carrying on.

    So you think all that is relevant is intent? That's fair enough, I think Japan is like that. But if all that matters is intent then you have to treat the male driver like anyone else speeding - you can't treat him worse just because his speeding happened to end in death.


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    #17
    Frosty McSnowballs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,396 ✭✭✭Frosty McSnowballs


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    That's not relevant to what I am saying. You clearly read the first line and then stopped.

    I am distinguishing between an unconscious error, and a deliberate decision to do a particular thing, knowing it is wrong, being alive to the inherent danger of carrying on.

    Well now. I would say crossing an oncoming lane of traffic to be a conscious decision. I would also argue that most drivers have been victim to unconsciously speeding.

    Horrid situation but both parties were at fault. Both should have obeyed the rules of the road. Clear cut 50/50 here.


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    #18
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,124 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    boomkatalog wrote: »
    They were both to blame, but its easy to make a wrong turn accidentally. How does one accidentally speed that much over the limit?

    Having said that, I wasn't there, the turn could be well signposted and obviously a stupid thing to do.

    Pretty irrelevant anyway, unfortunately it can't be undone and everyone has to live with their decisions.

    True. Unless I had a scale model showing me what happened i couldn't make a decision with any accuracy. It could be a tiny road or a huge wide straight one.

    having said that the basics are that she pulled out in front of him and he was going too fast.
    Both people were to blame for the accident. Both drove recklessly. I don't think either bear the majority of the responsability from the little I know. Fine him and I think the woman herself has been punished more than enough through the loss of her children.


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    #19
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    That'snot really relevant.

    I was distinguishing between an error, and a conscious decision to drive considerably faster than the speed limit.

    Part of the reason the speed limit exists is because other road users will inevitably make errors, and we all need time to respond, beep hard, and drive away safely.

    Was it just an error though? Or did she contiously take a turn she wasnt supposed to take to get her somewhere quicker? ( I dont know the details btw)


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    #20
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    YbFocus wrote: »
    She made a silly mistake and should be held equally responsible for pulling across the path of the oncoming car. If not solely responsible!

    Yes she lost her kids, but because of her mistake.
    Solely responsible?

    She erroneously believed she could make a left turn. The guy who crashed into her was travelling at 156% the speed limit.

    A speed limit exists so that other road users can have regard to one another, without doing irreversible damage.

    The driver deprived this mother of having proper regard that by speeding well in excess of the limit. Whilst the mother contributed by crossing a lane she shouldn't have crossed, this was not a conscious act, and even where wrongdoing exists, her moral culpability is lower than the driver's.
    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    It was a terrible tragedy. Putting the guy in jail would serve no purpose other than revenge as he is not exactly a menace to society. I am sure living with himself is sentence enough.
    Exacting revenge is a legitimate function of sentencing. One reason the criminal justice system exists is so that private human beings do not take the law into their own hands, where justice might be cruel and arbitrary. The justice system says "OK guys, we'll do the revenge for you, and we will see revenge is applied evenly".

    Another function can be to denounce, and discourage, a particularly harmful, conscious act.
    errlloyd wrote: »
    So you think all that is relevant is intent?
    No, I have not said that. There is some blame on the part of the mother, through carelessness, but it is of a different order to that of the man who knowingly speeds, knowing he will not be able to react to hazards.
    Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »
    Well now. I would say crossing an oncoming lane of traffic to be a conscious decision.
    But we all cross lanes of traffic. How could you possibly use the roads and not cross a lane of traffic at some point? She made an error, which was not a conscious decision. She has failed in her duty to take proper care, but her lack of intention is a factor. The other driver intended to speed.


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    #21
    Frosty McSnowballs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,396 ✭✭✭Frosty McSnowballs


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    The other driver intended to speed.

    How do you know it was intentional? Do you drive? Have you never broken the speed limit unintentionally?


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    #22
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    boomkatalog wrote: »
    They were both to blame, but its easy to make a wrong turn accidentally. How does one accidentally speed that much over the limit?

    It's not that hard to believe, but it depends on the circumstances. If you're on a long straight road, in a powerful car, without much traffic to keep the flow it would be quite possible to do 125 kph without realising it. Particularly if you had been driving for a while.

    I feel sorry for all involved. Both drivers made mistakes and will have to live with the consequences. You'd never get over that.


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    #23
    Wabbit Ears
    Registered Users Posts: 3,042 ✭✭✭Wabbit Ears


    I really dont think the 125 kmph in an 80 has much to do with anything tbh, she caused the crash.


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    #24
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Wabbit Ears wrote: »
    I really dont think the 125 kmph in an 80 has much to do with anything tbh, she caused the crash.

    Well it does, in that if he had been doing 80 the three kids might not have died. Tremendous difference in energy and stopping distances between collisions at those two speeds.


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    #25
    token101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,050 ✭✭✭token101


    Wabbit Ears wrote: »
    I really dont think the 125 kmph in an 80 has much to do with anything tbh, she caused the crash.

    Exactly. She was the one going the wrong way. She's far more culpable than he is. I don't think putting her in jail is the answer, but a judgement that she's accountable would be fair.


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    #26
    Oryx
    Subscribers Posts: 19,425 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    His offence is speeding, and that is all. He should have and probably was penalised in the same way as every other person who speeds. The same potential outcome is there for all of those too. So if you want heavier sentencing, it needs to be on all who commit the same offence. It was a trick of fate that gave this incident such a tragic outcome.


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    #27
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Solely responsible?

    She erroneously believed she could make a left turn. The guy who crashed into her was travelling at 156% the speed limit.

    A speed limit exists so that other road users can have regard to one another, without doing irreversible damage.

    The driver deprived this mother of having proper regard that by speeding well in excess of the limit. Whilst the mother contributed by crossing a lane she shouldn't have crossed, this was not a conscious act, and even where wrongdoing exists, her moral culpability is lower than the driver's.

    Exacting revenge is a legitimate function of sentencing. One reason the criminal justice system exists is so that private human beings do not take the law into their own hands, where justice might be cruel and arbitrary. The justice system says "OK guys, we'll do the revenge for you, and we will see revenge is applied evenly".

    Another function can be to denounce, and discourage, a particularly harmful, conscious act.

    No, I have not said that. There is some blame on the part of the mother, through carelessness, but it is of a different order to that of the man who knowingly speeds, knowing he will not be able to react to hazards.

    But we all cross lanes of traffic. How could you possibly use the roads and not cross a lane of traffic at some point? She made an error, which was not a conscious decision. She has failed in her duty to take proper care, but her lack of intention is a factor. The other driver intended to speed.

    And what if she deliberately chose to take the illegal turn to get somewhere quicker?

    Either way, illegal turn or not, its your responsibility to make sure you can clear the path of any traffic whos lane your crossing.


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    #28
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    The_Pretender wrote: »
    It would be interesting to see how people reacted if it was the other way around, and it had been the mother who was speeding along and the man who had taken the wrong left turn.

    They were most definitely both to blame.

    You'd get more people blaming her for speeding and saying she was a terrible mother, etc.
    I reckon.


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    #29
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Oryx wrote: »
    His offence is speeding, and that is all. He should have and probably was penalised in the same way as every other person who speeds. The same potential outcome is there for all of those too. So if you want heavier sentencing, it needs to be on all who commit the same offence. It was a trick of fate that gave this incident such a tragic outcome.

    Interesting point, do you reckon the charge of involuntary manslaughter should not exists at all then?


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    #30
    sonny jim bob jones
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 175 ✭✭sonny jim bob jones


    Imagine being the father of the three dead children, knowing that your wife contributed to their death.

    I'm not sure I could wake up each morning beside the wife after that.


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    #31
    hansfrei
    Registered Users Posts: 915 ✭✭✭hansfrei


    Poor kids. What a waste. Hope the husband can find some consolation. His life must be wrecked.

    RIP kids


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