DART+ (DART Expansion)

mrsdewinter · 11-02-2018 2:52pm

KOR101 wrote: »

Can someone explain to me the advantages of extending the Dart to Balbriggan.

I can see that it could mean more frequent trains but presumably the added Dart trains would be slower than the existing commuter trains with the extra stops. Is electricity much cheaper? Scratching my head a bit to see the big advantage.

Prioritising the electrification of the line to Maynooth & incorporating that into the Dart should come ahead of Balbriggan. Towns along the Maynooth line are already teeming.

LeinsterDub · 11-02-2018 3:01pm

fionnsci wrote: »

I'm only guessing but maybe in order to construct new stops closer together as there's faster acceleration and deceleration. Which would allow construction of new (ideally high density) housing near these stops. I don't have the inside scoop and I'm not particularly familiar with the line so this is just the benefit that I can ascertain.

Can someone quantity this improvement. Aren't our trains Diesel electric anyway?

L1011 · 12-02-2018 2:13pm

Pure electric trains have significantly better acceleration than diesel electric due to the immediate availability of power and lower weight. Also regenerative braking saves power on busier sections

Bray Head · 12-02-2018 2:24pm

L1011 wrote: »

Pure electric trains have significantly better acceleration than diesel electric due to the immediate availability of power and lower weight. Also regenerative braking saves power on busier sections

The benefits aren't huge here, especially when balanced against the infrastructure cost of electrifying the line. Remember the stations are spaced very far apart.

There is potential for development along the line, maybe as Rush and Lusk move closer together. But much of the hinterland is still sea. And big increases in commuter traffic will inevitably conflict with Dublin-Belfast running.

In contrast the Maynooth line is much closer to the city, is more likely to see development (no sea) and there is no real conflict with an inter-city service.

To me it's a no-brainer.

Pete_Cavan · 12-02-2018 2:58pm

KOR101 wrote: »

Can someone explain to me the advantages of extending the Dart to Balbriggan.

I can see that it could mean more frequent trains but presumably the added Dart trains would be slower than the existing commuter trains with the extra stops. Is electricity much cheaper? Scratching my head a bit to see the big advantage.

Can anyone even start to answer this question?

I don't buy the thing about electric trains allowing for more stations, there are enough stations, adding more is only going to reduce the quality of the service.

Even if to Balbriggan was electrified, you would still have to have a similar service pattern as present. DARTs serving all stations to Balbriggan would take too long to complete a run and would be jammed by Malahide in the mornings. Wouldn't this require more paths, which are very limited in supply, than present? And what of Drogheda and Dundalk, would they get their own express service, become Enterprise stops or no service at all? Is there any logic to the proposal?

AngryLips · 12-02-2018 9:27pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Can anyone even start to answer this question?

I don't buy the thing about electric trains allowing for more stations, there are enough stations, adding more is only going to reduce the quality of the service.

Even if to Balbriggan was electrified, you would still have to have a similar service pattern as present. DARTs serving all stations to Balbriggan would take too long to complete a run and would be jammed by Malahide in the mornings. Wouldn't this require more paths, which are very limited in supply, than present? And what of Drogheda and Dundalk, would they get their own express service, become Enterprise stops or no service at all? Is there any logic to the proposal?

I agree, I feel like talk of extending dart is just an exercise in vote grabbing ...remember when they extended dart to Greystones and the town ended up with fewer services than before?

KOR101 · 12-02-2018 9:29pm

AngryLips wrote: »

I agree, I feel like talk of extending dart is just an exercise in vote grabbing ...remember when they extended dart to Greystones and the town ended up with fewer services than before?

Returning the off-peak trains to eight carriages would get my vote.

Sam Russell · 12-02-2018 10:28pm

KOR101 wrote: »

Returning the off-peak trains to eight carriages would get my vote.

They are either eight coach or six coach at the moment, and generally less than half full.

They could run most services as four coach except for about 6 services each direction in the morning and the same in the evening. If they actively split or joined trains (that is with passengers on board) as they do in the UK, then they would improve the level of service.

For example, front 4 coaches split at Dun Laoghaire and go non-stop to Bray and onto Greystones, returning to Bray to rejoin the other part of the train which had continued as normal. Or front four split at Killbarrack and continue to Howth, while rest go to Malahide to be reunited again on return to Killbarrack.

It would depend on the normal level of passenger usage levels, but the intention would be to improve services, and reduce costs, but more drivers would be required.

lucernarian · 13-02-2018 2:16am

donvito99 wrote: »

For one the demand not met on the existing Green line is clear, whereas a Dart connection from Heuston to the Northern Line is essentially bringing a more expensive heavy rail link to open fields and sprawling housing estates.

A Metro North tie in to the Green Line at Charlemont is another 800m of tunneling and a portal. That's it, other than heightening/lengthening platforms and closing crossings at Beechwood etc.

Would you be in favour of Irish Rails proposal to cut costs and stop DU at Pearse? It's the same logic. You only need to look at a map, and at the fractional marginal cost of potentially tripling the capacity of an alignment that is already packed to see that it would be insane to have boring machines merely buried into the ground at SSG as is presently proposed.

Good points, but what about that crossing? The merrion gates is almost a perfect win-win as grade separation goes but it will have NIMBY opposition. That little crossing in Rathmines will be a problem in itself. And then there's the idea of a tunnel portal near Charlemont as if that won't require ludicrously expensive CPOs or local opposition or both. How will Ranelagh be extended? And how would some local near Cowper think, "sure it's only a doubling of capacity (optimistically) and all those extra trains will be easy to deal with"? The opposition and legal challenges to Trinity Halls says a lot.

I'm not sure that was Irish Rail's logic as much as it was some bureaucrat or "consulting" firm that floated the idea. Irish rail are struggling in the courts just to keep Pearse as a potential DU station.

Unlike the crayon drawing around charlemont, DU significantly increases capacity on 4 different commuting routes. Not just empty fields, especially not through west Dublin. And Metro North as it was in the North Dublin Transport study had absurd capacity projections that are clearly false.

If the capacity exists, planners can look at new towns and higher density along the new DART lines as already is happening with Cherrywood and the green line.

orangerhyme · 13-02-2018 5:37am

I've an idea instead of the DART Underground. A 360 degree Metro under the canals.

Temporarily drain the Grand Canal and build an underground metro from Heuston to the South Docks using a much cheaper cut and cover engineering. Once completed the canal could be reinstated.
On the northside you could either do similar with the Royal Canal or use the existing railway line there which goes through the Phoenix Park tunnel.
Then tunnel/bridge under/over the liffey from Spencer dock to Grand canal dock.

You would have a 360 degree underground Metro connecting Heuston, Connolly, DART, LUAS and bus services.

The stations would be (going anti-clockwise) : Heuston, Rialto/St James ( connecting with Luas), Harolds Cross, Barge/Portobello (Luas green line connection), Baggott street bridge, Grand Canal Docks, Spencer Dock, Drumcondra/Croke Park, Phibsborough, Cabra/Navan rd - then back to Heuston. So 10 stations.

This could be completely separate from DART and Rail or it could be the same gauge and allow these services to use it.
If using the existing rail along the Royal Canal it wouldnt be difficult to integrate Rail and DART since its above ground.

It would be high frequency and speed due to being underground and not passing any junctions with roads.
Id have Dublin Bike stations at every Metro stop and a top class two way cycle lane on the surface which doesnt cross roads. Also the Metro stations are interconnecting with the main bus routes into the city.

If you look at the main employment and educational spots on its route, it would surely be profitable service : North and South docks, Mater hosp, St James hosp, Trinity, DIT, Griffith College, Trinity College, Camden st/harcourt st going out areas.
Also Croke Park and AVIVA, The point depot.

Then Id produce a simplified map of DART, Luas, rail, Metro and high frequency bus routes similar to this

grid%206(1).jpg

I believe it would be much cheaper than DART underground since it requires very little tunneling. A top class two way cycle lane could be built on top too.
The Metro north could then just connect at Drumcondra or Phibsborough since the Luas green line is there, therefore making it much cheaper and quicker to build.

I think the major drawback ( other than the idea being a bit "out there") is maybe the Grand Canal is a protected/conserved etc and it simply cant be touched.
But I think it could be drained, dug under and then reinstated without much damage. The ecology would obviously suffer though.

KOR101 · 13-02-2018 10:18am

Sam Russell wrote: »

They are either eight coach or six coach at the moment, and generally less than half full.

You must be talking about the DART trains. Off-peak commuter trains from Balbriggan are four carriages and can be packed. I can suffer crammed peak trains if the off-peak ones are nice and relaxed.

From this mornings IT......

Ministers have also examined increases in train capacity, such as ordering about 100 extra carriages for the Drogheda and Maynooth commuter lines, both of which are scheduled to be electrified as part of the expansion of the Dart system. Hybrid electric and diesel trains could be brought into service in advance of the electrification of the line.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/metro-north-plan-change-considered-by-government-1.3390016

Sam Russell · 13-02-2018 11:25am

KOR101 wrote: »

You must be talking about the DART trains. Off-peak commuter trains from Balbriggan are four carriages and can be packed. I can suffer crammed peak trains if the off-peak ones are nice and relaxed.

From this mornings IT......

Ministers have also examined increases in train capacity, such as ordering about 100 extra carriages for the Drogheda and Maynooth commuter lines, both of which are scheduled to be electrified as part of the expansion of the Dart system. Hybrid electric and diesel trains could be brought into service in advance of the electrification of the line.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/metro-north-plan-change-considered-by-government-1.3390016

I was talking about Dart - sorry - missed that as I am not familiar with that line. If they are looking at new trains, they should look at battery/electric trains that could run on battery north of Malahide and recharge south of Malahide, and while waiting at Balbriggan. Diesels should be phased out.

budhabob · 13-02-2018 1:46pm

orangerhyme wrote: »

I've an idea instead of the DART Underground. A 360 degree Metro under the canals.

Temporarily drain the Grand Canal and build an underground metro from Heuston to the South Docks using a much cheaper cut and cover engineering. Once completed the canal could be reinstated.
On the northside you could either do similar with the Royal Canal or use the existing railway line there which goes through the Phoenix Park tunnel.
Then tunnel/bridge under/over the liffey from Spencer dock to Grand canal dock.

You would have a 360 degree underground Metro connecting Heuston, Connolly, DART, LUAS and bus services.

The stations would be (going anti-clockwise) : Heuston, Rialto/St James ( connecting with Luas), Harolds Cross, Barge/Portobello (Luas green line connection), Baggott street bridge, Grand Canal Docks, Spencer Dock, Drumcondra/Croke Park, Phibsborough, Cabra/Navan rd - then back to Heuston. So 10 stations.

This could be completely separate from DART and Rail or it could be the same gauge and allow these services to use it.
If using the existing rail along the Royal Canal it wouldnt be difficult to integrate Rail and DART since its above ground.

It would be high frequency and speed due to being underground and not passing any junctions with roads.
Id have Dublin Bike stations at every Metro stop and a top class two way cycle lane on the surface which doesnt cross roads. Also the Metro stations are interconnecting with the main bus routes into the city.

If you look at the main employment and educational spots on its route, it would surely be profitable service : North and South docks, Mater hosp, St James hosp, Trinity, DIT, Griffith College, Trinity College, Camden st/harcourt st going out areas.
Also Croke Park and AVIVA, The point depot.

Then Id produce a simplified map of DART, Luas, rail, Metro and high frequency bus routes similar to this

I believe it would be much cheaper than DART underground since it requires very little tunneling. A top class two way cycle lane could be built on top too.
The Metro north could then just connect at Drumcondra or Phibsborough since the Luas green line is there, therefore making it much cheaper and quicker to build.

I think the major drawback ( other than the idea being a bit "out there") is maybe the Grand Canal is a protected/conserved etc and it simply cant be touched.
But I think it could be drained, dug under and then reinstated without much damage. The ecology would obviously suffer though.

I believe this was already proposed and shown to be MUCH more expensive, and far less beneficial. As a standalone a circular route might make sense, but certainly not instead of DU.

orangerhyme · 13-02-2018 1:52pm

budhabob wrote: »

I believe this was already proposed and shown to be MUCH more expensive, and far less beneficial. As a standalone a circular route might make sense, but certainly not instead of DU.

Ah ok, didnt know this.

Im not sure if I meant it instead of the DU or as a standalone cos Im not sure if its possible to integrate it with the rail network.

orangerhyme · 13-02-2018 1:53pm

budhabob wrote: »

I believe this was already proposed and shown to be MUCH more expensive, and far less beneficial. As a standalone a circular route might make sense, but certainly not instead of DU.

Do you know who/when/where it was proposed?

Brian CivilEng · 13-02-2018 2:40pm

orangerhyme wrote: »

Temporarily drain the Grand Canal and build an underground metro from Heuston to the South Docks using a much cheaper cut and cover engineering. Once completed the canal could be reinstated.

I'm afraid that is not possible, as it was already done in the 1980s to be build a drainage tunnel. There's a bit about in this article:

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/down-dublin-s-drains-1.1918103

orangerhyme · 13-02-2018 3:19pm

abitofacomedian wrote: »

I'm afraid that is not possible, as it was already done in the 1980s to be build a drainage tunnel. There's a bit about in this article:

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/down-dublin-s-drains-1.1918103

Thanks, didnt know that. Its probably still possible but WAY more complex and difficult than I had envisioned.

"A circular tunnel, 5km long and with an internal diameter of 3.65m – the same as a London Tube –
was laid on the south side of the canal from Herberton Bridge to Grand Canal Street. The bore is divided
segmentally, carrying both foul and surface water. Along its route, it intercepts foul drainage from
Walkinstown, Drimnagh, Crumlin, Terenure and part of the Rathmines and Pembroke areas. It also
intercepts the Poddle and other streams, relieving flood-prone areas in Crumlin, Mount Brown, Harold’s
Cross, Rathmines and the south inner city."

LeinsterDub · 14-02-2018 4:40pm

Business group Dublin Chamber has expressed “deep concern” over suggestions that an underground public transport system linking all DART, rail and Luas services in the capital won’t be given the go-ahead.....

Dublin Chamber says that the bare minimum funding must be put aside so that the project remains a viable future option.

https://www.joe.ie/news/dart-underground-dublin-616170

100% agree the route should be kept viable

Idbatterim · 14-02-2018 5:21pm

the unions are easily quashed. It needs to be built!

cgcsb · 14-02-2018 5:30pm

O'Leary of the NBRU will probably go looking for another hiding off Shane Ross in the coming months and that'll be him finished.

Idbatterim · 14-02-2018 5:43pm

cgcsb wrote: »

O'Leary of the NBRU will probably go looking for another hiding off Shane Ross in the coming months and that'll be him finished.

Shane ross sure as hell didnt give them a hiding!

Sam Russell · 14-02-2018 5:50pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Shane ross sure as hell didnt give them a hiding!

It was Shane Ross who was hiding.

Pete_Cavan · 15-02-2018 11:01am

Electrifying as far as Rusk & Lusk and extending the DART to there could be a good option. If the Metro could go that far too it would be a good interchange station between DART, Metro, commuter and perhaps even Enterprise. It has the space for additional platforms allowing for turnback and even stabling space for the first DARTs of the morning making the whole thing more efficient. From Skerries north would still sustain the commuter services.

cgcsb · 15-02-2018 12:49pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Shane ross sure as hell didnt give them a hiding!

well a hiding through indifference. They're used to FF and labour types getting the chequebook out every time they make noise.

cojamocork · 15-02-2018 2:06pm

Sincerely hope the DU isn't axed from the capital plan. Allowing through suburban/Dart trains would be a game-changer for capacity and unlock the likes of the Maynooth and Kildare corridors for commuters who won't need to reply on cars. An S-Bahn system (the two DART lines) would unlock Dublin's potential along with the Metro. Here's hoping it won't be ballsed up!

Idbatterim · 15-02-2018 3:39pm

cgcsb wrote: »

well a hiding through indifference. They're used to FF and labour types getting the chequebook out every time they make noise.

didnt they still get their pay increase though albeit not as easily?

marno21 · 15-02-2018 7:01pm

Shane Ross, Minister for Transport, was asked by Eamon Ryan today during Ministers Questions about the status of DART Underground:

5. Deputy Eamon Ryan Eamon Ryan asked the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport the future of the proposed underground rail interconnector linking Heuston Station and Spencer Dock; if this interconnector will be included in the new national capital plan; and, if not, the way in which he plans to increase the capacity of the rail network. [7883/18]

Deputy Eamon Ryan: Eamon Ryan In 1972 the report on the transportation in Dublin study carried out by An Foras Forbartha stated we should build an underground rail connection between Heuston Station and Pearse Street and Connolly Station. In 1975 the report on the Dublin rapid rail transportation study stated the same and that it should be the second phase after the introduction of the Howth to Bray DART line. In 2001 the plan A Platform for Change stated the project was more important than anything else and should take precedence over the widening of the M50. That did not happen. A railway order was issued in December 2011 but subsequently cancelled. The report on the NTA greater Dublin draft transport study for the period 2016 to 2035 brought the measure back in and stated we had to have it.

[Deputy Eamon Ryan: Eamon Ryan] Does the Minister intend to build it? Will it happen? Are we for real on this issue? Will it be in the plan that will be announced tomorrow?

Deputy Shane Ross: As the Deputy is aware, the National Transport Authority's, NTA, transport strategy for the greater Dublin area 2016-2035 proposes implementation of the overall DART expansion programme. In the Government’s budgetary framework for capital investment, Building on Recovery: Infrastructure and Capital Investment 2016-2021, funding was allocated to progress a number of key public transport projects in the NTA's strategy, including the DART expansion programme.

The DART expansion programme has a key role to play in delivering an efficient transport system. When fully implemented, the enhancements to the heavy rail system provided for in the NTA's transport strategy will create a full metropolitan area DART network for Dublin with all of the lines linked and connected. This integrated rail network will provide the core high capacity transit system for the region and will deliver a very substantial increase in peak-hour capacity on all lines from Drogheda, Maynooth, Hazelhatch and Greystones.

The original cost of the overall DART expansion programme, including the DART underground tunnel element, was estimated, as the Deputy will be well aware from his own experience, at €4 billion, of which €3 billion was in respect of the tunnel as originally designed. The Government decided in September 2015 that the original proposal for the tunnel should be redesigned to provide a lower cost solution. I understand that the NTA is working with Irish Rail on a revised proposal that is expected to be completed soon.

In the meantime, significant investment to upgrade signalling and turn-back facilities in the critical city centre area allowed the upgrade and reopening of the Phoenix Park tunnel in 2016. At the time of its opening, the NTA stated that the opening of the tunnel was an opportunity in the short term, at modest cost, to bring commuters from the west and south west to the city centre and the business district in the south of the city. It stated also that the opportunity of developing the DART underground is to be protected for the future.

The upgrade to the Phoenix Park tunnel in 2016 at a cost of €13.5 million has seen commuters on the Kildare to Dublin Heuston line benefit from having the option of direct trains to Connolly, Tara Street, Pearse and Grand Canal Dock stations.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House

Following the mid-term review of capital priorities, budget 2018 increased the multi-annual capital investment funding envelopes for the coming four-year period, including providing an enhanced capital envelope of €2.7 billion for Ireland's public transport investment between 2018 and 2021. This enhanced capital envelope includes funding in the order of €230 million for mainline rail and DART capacity enhancement and will allow acceleration of the initial stages of the overall DART expansion programme, focusing particularly at this stage on providing additional fleet to enhance capacity and extending the electrified DART system. Specifically, it will allow substantial progress on electrification of the Northern rail line as far as Balbriggan, now expected to be delivered in 2022, and commencing work on the Maynooth line.

Planning for longer term investment will form part of the national development plan, the Government's overall ten-year investment plan which we will be launching later this week alongside the new national planning framework for the period to 2040.

Deputy Eamon Ryan: Eamon Ryan That is the same no nothing answer the Minister gave me a year ago. I am clear on what the Minister is saying; it is not going to happen. I have no faith in the Minister's ability to protect public transport or deliver public transport in this city. Our city is grinding to a halt and he is sitting back and watching it happen. It was galling to read in the newspapers today the front-page news that the metro will open up lands in the north of Dublin. We knew that 20 years ago. We were planning that 20 years ago in A Platform for Change, which was a proper plan about how we would make this city function and work. Critical to it, as well as the metro, was the DART interconnector because the two go together. There would be joint stations that complimented each other and we would start to have a public transport system that works. The Minister has given up on that. There is nothing happening. He has been saying for a year and a half that he is doing plans and looking at it. If he had been doing it, he would have answered this question today and he would be announcing tomorrow the building of the DART interconnector, but we will get nothing.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy Eamon Ryan: The city is in gridlock and it will kill this country's growth prospects because it will not work. All the roads the Minister is building will not work. We need public transport.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): You will have a further minute, Deputy.

Deputy Eamon Ryan: Edgar Morgenroth is right. The Minister is killing our cities, particularly Dublin, and I am sad that is happening at a time when we have the money and the opportunity.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Information on Eugene Murphy Eugene Murphy Deputy, you know that you have a further minute, so do not abuse the time.

Deputy Shane Ross: Deputy Ryan was a little bit histrionic.

Deputy Eamon Ryan: Eamon Ryan I am sorry. I am slightly emotional. I am 20 years waiting on this.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Information on Eugene Murphy Eugene Murphy Please allow the Minister give his reply.

Deputy Colm Brophy: Information on Colm Brophy Colm Brophy Deputy Ryan's party bankrupted the country in that 20 years.

Deputy Shane Ross: During that 20 years

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Information on Eugene Murphy Eugene Murphy The Minister without interruption, please.

Deputy Pat Deering: Information on Patrick Deering Patrick Deering He has a short memory.

Deputy Colm Brophy: Information on Colm Brophy Colm Brophy A very short memory.

Deputy Shane Ross:
I believe the Deputy was in government.

Deputy Eamon Ryan: Eamon Ryan Yes.

Deputy Shane Ross: I did not interrupt the Deputy. He was in government for that period of time. I do not know when this particular project was cancelled but I think the DART underground was deferred by the previous Government in November 2010.

Deputy Eamon Ryan: Eamon Ryan No. It was 2011.

Deputy Shane Ross: When you were not so busy deferring bankrupting the country, bankrupting the banks and propping up Brian Cowen and Bertie Ahern, which he did with alacrity, I do not know what you were doing about transport but we inherited a situation in transport from you guys which was an absolute and utter disaster. You get up here day in, day out wanting to spend money like water, as you did the time you were in government. I will not sit here and take that as though money comes out of the sky when you are in opposition but when in government you just spend it and bankrupt the country.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Address the Chair, Minister.

Deputy Shane Ross: That is the outrageous type of narrative Deputy Ryan comes out with day after day. We should be spending €4 billion on an underground

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Thank you, Minister.

Deputy Shane Ross: We are doing an extremely progressive job. We will not bankrupt the country for infrastructure.

Deputy Eamon Ryan: The Minister will spend €4 billion on roads in the next four years. He is bankrupting the country now because the traffic system in this city is grinding to a halt. He is the Minister for transport today. He should stand up to that responsibility in a country where we do have budgets. I heard European Investment Bank, EIB, representatives tell the Committee on Budgetary Oversight that there is no counter-party for us to lend to. They have no public projects ready to go. We protected this project when we were in government. We had the metro in the four-year plan. Fine Gael then killed it, which was the worst decision by any Government because it was the perfect counter cyclical plan that would have provided us not just with a transport system that works but it would have opened up those transport lines for housing. Instead, this Government is saying, "Aren't we great". It is 30 years late in opening up those lands for housing. What are the people in Kildare and beyond going to do when that rail system is not good enough to carry the numbers we need to be carried into this city? The Minister is a failure as Minister for transport.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy Eamon Ryan: He should stand up to that failure today. His key failing is that he does not believe in public transport. He does not believe in walking, cycling or any such mode of transport. All he wants to do is spend on roads. He has given no money to the cities

Deputy Brendan Griffin: We are clearing up your mess.

Deputy Eamon Ryan: Eamon Ryan
and it is killing our country. That is why I am annoyed.

Deputy Brendan Griffin: Information on Brendan Griffin Brendan Griffin We are clearing up your legacy.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Information on Eugene Murphy Eugene Murphy Deputy, please.

Deputy Pat Deering: Information on Patrick Deering Patrick Deering We are clearing up the mess you left behind.

Deputy Brendan Griffin: Information on Brendan Griffin Brendan Griffin We are clearing up the mess you left after you, which took ten years.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Gentlemen, this is Deputy Ryan's question.

Deputy Brendan Griffin: It is very hard to listen to this rubbish.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Minister, will you address the Chair, please? The Minister has one minute to reply.

Deputy Pat Deering: You cannot let him away with that.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Deputy Deering

Deputy Eamon Ryan: Cannot get away with what? It is just the truth.

Deputy Brendan Griffin: The truth is

Deputy Eamon Ryan: It is the bloody truth.

Deputy Brendan Griffin:
that you presided over the bankruptcy of the country.

(Interruptions).

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Information on Eugene Murphy Eugene Murphy Deputy Ryan

Deputy Eamon Ryan: Eamon Ryan How long did it take you

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): I ask Deputy Ryan and the other Members please to desist. The Minister has one minute to reply. I ask Members to let the Minister reply.

Deputy Pat Deering: It is very difficult

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Please, Deputy Deering. Your question will be dealt with shortly. I will not allow you your time if you continue to interrupt.

Deputy Pat Deering: Information on Patrick Deering Patrick Deering Sorry.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Information on Eugene Murphy Eugene Murphy If you want your question taken, let the Minister respond.

Deputy Shane Ross: I am speechless

Deputy Mick Barry: Information on Mick Barry Mick Barry Correct. That is a first.

Deputy Shane Ross:
having to listen to this extraordinary narrative which you come in here day after day

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Information on Eugene Murphy Eugene Murphy Minister, will you address the Chair, please?

Deputy Shane Ross: Yes. I wish to know the pills this man is taking.

Deputy Eamon Ryan: Eamon Ryan How long did it take the Minister to drive in here today?

Deputy Shane Ross: This man must be smoking amnesia

Deputy Eamon Ryan: Eamon Ryan How long did it take him to drive in here today?

Deputy Shane Ross: There is a thing called an amnesia pill, and it makes one forget everything.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Information on Eugene Murphy Eugene Murphy Minister, will you address the Chair?

Deputy Eamon Ryan: Eamon Ryan How long did it take you to drive in today?

Deputy Shane Ross: For his years in the wilderness, he took his amnesia pills. He has forgotten he was in government when the country was bankrupt.

Deputy Eamon Ryan: Eamon Ryan Where we

Deputy Shane Ross: He has forgotten about the four-year plan to which he referred. His plan went up in smoke because he spent money like there was no tomorrow. We are at least producing a plan, which is a ten-year plan that is responsible

Deputy Eamon Ryan: Eamon Ryan Roads, roads, roads.

Deputy Shane Ross:
gradual and realistic. I will not listen any longer to the sort of hypocrisy I have to put up with from Deputy Ryan. He comes in here day after day and forgets that he was in government when the country went bankrupt.

Deputy Eamon Ryan: Eamon Ryan You forgot the people of Dublin.

Deputy Shane Ross: You were the great prop of Cowen and Ahern when they had magic coming out of the sky, with castles in the air that never existed and were never built.

Deputy Eamon Ryan: Eamon Ryan You are crippling this city

Deputy Brendan Griffin: Information on Brendan Griffin Brendan Griffin I have heard of a goldfish memory. I have never heard of a green fish memory.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy): Information on Eugene Murphy Eugene Murphy Members, it would be good if we calmed down for the next set of questions. Do not irritate yourselves too much.

Conchir · 15-02-2018 7:24pm

What a load of childish squabbling and attempted point-scoring.

Grandeeod · 15-02-2018 8:11pm

Conchir wrote: »

What a load of childish squabbling and attempted point-scoring.

Ah yes! That's politics for you. Which is why nothing serious gets done. DU is dead in the water. However NMN is the latest plaything and will be used as the panacea to Dublin's PT problems, until that ultimately get's swallowed up in more politics. You really have to actively engage with the TD's and Government Ministers in the halls of Leinster House to fully comprehend the way they work and it's never in the interests of building huge PT projects that cost billions. That's a cheque too far.

BonnieSituation · 15-02-2018 8:13pm

That was so frustrating to read. I am by no means a fan of the Greens or indeed Ryan but Brendan Griffin's response as well as Ross' is beyond reproach.

Look at what we are dealing with. No wonder this s***e happens with such regularity and the city is grinding to a halt. And then you go over to the 2040 thread and read users "not getting" what our issue is with one-off housing etc.

FFS.

I finish my degree in May. I cannot wait to see the back of this place.

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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