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Holes in my bucket! Feudalism and Child Labor?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Like I said, it's not a huge stretch of the imagination to see it spread country wide if your policy of helping the wealthy went mainstream.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 333 ✭✭Channel Zero


    Permabear wrote: »

    As if issues are never dragged "off-topic" by some in virtually every thread started here in politics...:rolleyes:

    This is a thread based on a faulty premise. (that increased production apparently solely increases wages and phases out child labour)

    I'm afraid it's just another case of Libertarians claiming victories of natural technological and market development as vindication of their own fundamentalist biases.

    It goes on to imply/attack "anti-Libertarians" as supposedly being ignorant and/or dishonest.

    And finally, laughably, selectively quotes avowed opposers of what we're talking about to try and back up the OP.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Well in fairness, the thread is about child labour and economics, particularly the effects of economics on reducing child labour.

    People seem to be advocating an economic system based on Libertarian principals, for combating child poverty, so it seems reasonable to ask for a full outline of such an economic system.

    By all means though, avoid my questions like usual.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Not hyperbole, I'm afraid. Your typical Westlands, Nairobi abode combines mock-tudor elegance with a ten foot wall, topped by electric fences and/or barbed wire, probably an alsatian and two or three askaris behind the wall. Surprised they didn't go for a moat while they were at it. You stay classy, Westlands. I probably would have spent longer living there if it hadn't been for that - it felt like living in a war zone.

    My digressive anecdotes had a point - don't discount the power of phenomenological explanations, there's more to Nietzche than the übermensch, you know. Firstly, as above, there are material benefits to everyone living in a more equal society, on any number of levels - a grossly unequal society just isn't a pleasant place, even if you're one of the lucky few, sorry the creative and hardworking few.

    Secondly, and related, you can't assume that people's material position in society is somehow a function of their personal merit, at least not in any society I've ever encountered. Slumdog Don Draper could have been Senior Vice President for Sales and Marketing if he'd had the breaks, the guy was good.

    This brings us back to one key issue, inequality, and whether a libertarian society would have any internally consistent mechanism to address this?
    Permabear wrote: »
    the statistics are indisputable on that front, as much as you seem to want to carp and qualify and hedge.

    The statistics are very much disputable, they were produced by the Government of Kenya, the IMF did the analysis, as I see it. This is the same Government of Kenya who claim that only 175,000 live in Kibera slums, when the lowest independent estimate is twice that, and most NGOs put the population at around a million.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    The whole point of wage labour is that it should be sufficiently remunerative to acquire property and from there self determination, right? You're going to be a long time saving to set up your own business on €4.50 an hour.

    This was about standard for those kinds of jobs at the time, even with the nascent boom, and it illustrates why we need a minimum wage. There can't be exceptions for "part time" jobs, even in a time of full employment, although it'll be a while before we see that again, because any such loophole is prone to exploitation.

    Ok, so getting back to the OP, I find it very interesting that the Child Labor Deterrence Act and Bangladeshi sweatshop workers seem to be something of a cause célèbre for the pro globalization lobby - this Cato review is very relevant, in terms of the present discussion, and highlights the plight of the laid-off workers. But the story doesn't end there.

    Firstly, the act was repeatedly introduced at Congress, but in fact never passed, although Sen. Harkin seems to have been constantly active on the issue.

    The tabling in 1992 did lead to a major change in the Dhaka garment trade, though. While child labour was illegal under Bangladeshi law, and the terms are more strict than the ILO Conventions, it was a widespread practice. Explosive growth in the industry, almost exclusively export-based, had led to explosive growth in the number of child workers, probably around 50,000, although the Bangladeshi government's estimate was as high as 100,000.

    Around the same time, NBC showed a documentary on Wal-Mart's supply chain, highlighting the use of child labour by manufacturers, represented by the politically powerful Bangladesh Garment Manufacturers and Exporters Association, and public pressure led Wal-Mart to undertake that they would force the BGMEA to eradicate the practice.
    At this point, however, the garment manufacturers were already contemplating to clean up low-age workers from their factories’ and according to Rosaline Costa, a Bangladeshi human rights activist—as many as 5,000 children had already been dismissed in December 1992. This ‘cleaning up’, however, did not involve the provision of educational alternatives or any substitute income for the children, and this became an important concern as the debate continued

    Following this, Wal Mart, the US Government, UNICEF, the ILO, an Asian-American Trade Union, and a couple of local NGOs entered in to negotiations with BGMEA, which continued as the bill was tabled again in 1994, at which point the BGMEA conceded, with the threat of sanctions under the Act looming, and gave an undertaking to stop using child labour by that October, and to provide schooling for them, but no substantive action was forthcoming.

    Further negotiations followed, again overshadowed by the threat of the Harkin Bill introducing an embargo on products manufactured using child labour. At the end of 1994, the Republicans took the house, and obviously eradicating child labour isn't an idea that much suits them, so the BGMEA walked out of negotiations, only to be dragged back when the Child Labor Coalition, another US NGO organised a boycott:
    ‘trade sanctions are a very blunt instrument, but we were dealing with some very blunt people, and we got their attention.’

    Ultimately, they came crawling back in 1995 and a Memorandum of Understanding was finally signed:
    Under the terms of the agreement, four key provisions were formulated:
    • the removal of all under-age workers — those below 14 — within a period of four months;
    • no further hiring of under-age children;
    • the placement of those children removed from the garment factories in appropriate educational programmes with a monthly stipend;
    • the offer of the children’s jobs to qualified adult family members.

    The Memorandum of Understanding explicitly directed factory owners, in the best interests of these children, not to dismiss any child workers until a factory survey was completed and alternative arrangements could be made for the freed children.

    I'm summarising from this paper, published in International Affairs: Michael E. Nielsen - The politics of corporate responsibility and child labour in the Bangladeshi garment industry

    Now, it's open to debate whether the pressure placed on the BGMEA was protectionism in another guise, as to the ethics of interfering in another country's labour relations, and whether it was in fact the Senator, the NBC, Wal Mart or the boycott that forced the agreement. But I think the evidence is clear that child labour is inefficient, and represents just another poverty trap, whether you look at it morally or economically. Certainly, in a globalised world, it seems clear that accountability along the supply chain is a powerful tool - if, as claimed, conditions are better with manufacturers supplying image-conscious corporations like Nike and Apple, it's not much of a stretch to suggest that this kind of pressure has something to do with it.

    The argument that labour laws shouldn't be an issue until a country is sufficiently "rich" carries no weight with me, it reminds me of Lenin and Trotsky's view that the Soviet people needed to drive for industrialisation before true socialism could be achieved, one of the single greatest corruptions of the Soviet project.

    Labour relations in Bangladesh are still fraught, with mass strikes and repression following the manufacturers' refusal to pay their workers the newly introduced minimum wage - the princely sum of $43 per month - and the torture and murder, last week, of a leading trade unionist. Doesn't look like it's the case that employers happily raise wages according to growth - GDP growth has been at around 5% or more since 2000, inflation over 8% in 3 years out of 4 from 2007-2010.

    Obviously, this is inexact, but going by the figures in those articles, $43 per month for 3.2m workers is $1.65bn going directly in to the local economy for an industry worth $16bn per year? They were getting half that, if even - wages below the poverty line - and still the manufacturers held out. Kinda puts some perspective on the "sweatshops lifting people out of poverty" argument, doesn't it? In fact, that looks an awful lot like exploitation to me. I thought people were entitled to enjoy the "fruits of their labours" in the libertarian worldview?

    According to our friends at the World Bank (old figures, though):
    While fewer people lived in extreme poverty, inequality within and across regions gradually increased

    No sh!t. Extreme poverty, as opposed to only abject poverty, these days ... only 58% of children are "severely deprived" according to UNICEF.

    On the plus side, it seems that, in fact, 5,000 is the true total of children turned out of work, without alternative, rather than 50,000, as claimed, which would have been close to the entire child work force. I think that Nielsen's final paragraph is particularly telling:
    Finally, while it is certainly important to be attentive to the negative consequences of eliminating child labour (and other problems), the above analysis also pointed to some negative consequences of being so: it may serve to redefine the problem, to narrow the agenda and/or to transfer moral culpability from corporations to critics.

    As is that to the Cato piece:
    In Defense of Globalization will encourage the faithful who believe in economic freedom as a value worth pursuing in and of itself, but also those more pragmatic souls who see it as a necessary if less-than-lovable means to achieve poverty reduction and other worthy social goals. Of all the books defending globalization, Jagdish Bhagwati's may offer the best chance to reach those readers not fatally blinded by anti-market ideology.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I am well aware of this - as are those who, use the 50,000 child workers cast out in to the streets as a hook to their arguments. It's a snappy point, it's unfortunate that it just isn't true, and that the reality is much more interesting and informative. But the reality can't be compressed in to a sentence. But I'll try, just for you:

    1. How do they define a "fair wage"? As noted earlier, wages paid by so-called sweatshops in Asia are often two or three times the national average. How can they claim that being paid two or three times the average wage is "unfair"?

    Above the poverty line would be a good place to start - see above.

    2. How do they reconcile their opposition to a low-wage economy with the evident benefits that low-wage, export-based economies have reaped in recent decades in the form of economic growth and development?

    This is not the case - see above.

    3. How do they reconcile their call for unions and ever-more government with the fact that many so-called "sweatshops" are located in extremely statist socialist and communist countries (hardly hotbeds of libertarianism) where economies are so unfree that organized labor is systematically repressed by the power of the state?

    Seems that it's not the power of the state, but the power of the manufacturers that's responsible for much of the repression, and Western consumers have the power to force change in these industries, which have repercussions far beyond the micro-context of a particular industrial dispute - see above.

    4. What do they propose to do about the approximately 95 percent of child workers who are not employed by Western corporations? These include children working in agriculture, on plantations, as domestic servants, and in indigenous industry, where wages and working conditions are much worse than in the export sector.

    Same rules apply, positive changes in the export sector have much broader ramifications in the local economy - see above.

    If you want to have a serious debate about globalization, then it's all there for you, but trying to tl;dr your way out of it just seems like a transparent attempt to avoid the fact that all of the points in the "sweatshops lift people out of poverty" mode have been comprehensively refuted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    What's a cop-out here is your refusal to engage with my detailed post above, taking Bangladesh as a case in point. You were quite happy to take Bangladesh as representative when making the emotive, "poor waifs cast out in to the streets" point, but you're ignoring it now?
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I got in to the nuances above, which was dismissed as tl;dr. Nuances tend to go that way ... certainly seems that the nuances are inconvenient to those engaged in populist corporate cheerleading, just the same.

    I am not "demonising", where have I ever said that Western corporations setting up or outsourcing to developing countries is undesirable in itself? What I am saying is that, in order for this engagement to be the panacea that you you suggest it to be, it must take place under conditions conducive to benefiting the people of these countries, including decent wages, conditions and a ban on child labour. See above.

    And having spent a couple of years actually working in development, in the developing world, it's me who can't even grasp the problem?

    Plus, I'm apparently myopic, populist and "Marxist"? The last one is a straw-man, if ever I saw one, I take as much from Marx as I do from Hayek, Durkheim, Foucault, Bourdieu, Hart, Nietzche, Adam Smith, etc., etc., etc. Trying to put me in a box isn't helping your argument here. In fact, it smacks of desperation.

    Please do yourself a favour and actually read my post, the Nielsen paper above, or preferably both, before commenting further. In fact, preferably have at least a scan through all of my sources and attempt to understand my actual position, rather than what you'd like it to be.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Permabear wrote:
    This post had been deleted.
    Permabear, would you ever engage with peoples arguments instead dismissing them or throwing around condescending accusations and warping their views; you routinely put words in peoples mouths, and distort what they are saying into "Us vs Them" positions.

    It's dishonest for starters, and drags the whole discussion down, yet you do it all of the time and are smart enough to be fully aware of it.


    Since my questions/points in this post are on topic, through economics being a central part of the discussion, please answer them.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Permabear, would you ever engage with peoples arguments instead dismissing them or throwing around condescending accusations and warping their views

    This is what Permabear does routinely, he even has the neck to call out other posters for doing something he has refined very well, I'm sure the hypocrisy was not lost on any of you.

    In his world, it's not do as he does, it's do as he says.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,218 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Please be advised that some posters have been ignoring the in-thread warning and there will be consequences.
    Black Swan wrote: »
    MOD COMMENT:
    Please tone it down a bit posters. Play the ball, not the man. Avoid personal digs when refuting someone else's position.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    To be fair, the ball had already been well and truly knocked out of the park.

    I repeat that this argument will be taken to have been conceded unless and until the substantive issues raised above are addressed.

    Another interesting point is that activists' attempts to impose minimum wage standards do not necessarily lead multinationals to move to other countries where wages are lower and there are fewer employment rights, and that a minimum wage, obviously, does help to reduce income inequality.

    The study covers a relatively short period of time, but would seem to suggest that constant pressure on the multinationals themselves to ensure that their supply chain is ethical, wherever it is based, would be the most effective tactic in ensuring that globalisation does in fact benefit these countries, rather than constituting just another exploitative poverty trap.
    The fact that wages soared and employment remained steady in textiles and apparel suggests that the anti-sweatshop movement had a positive impact on workers in these factories. This is a surprising and unintuitive result which suggests that anti-sweatshop activism in Indonesia was a “win-win” situation.

    Also, the blog post from which your nice punchy graphic above was sourced tells a slightly different story to the one which you're presenting. Even aside from questions as to the methodology in determining, and the fact that these data need to be read in conjunction with the poverty rates, inflation, employment rates and the cost of living in order to properly ascertain whether increased wages actually really helped the countries:
    At the heart of shifting work production to another location is a concept known as 'labor arbitrage.' Basically, that it's cheaper to employ someone somewhere else. Workers in the new country are pulled into opportunities greater than what they previously had, and redundant workers in the home country are rapidly re-absorbed by a flexible labor market - hopefully up-skilled along the way.

    Just as the reality for both new and displaced workers lacks the starry romanticism of such a simple model, there is another reality at play here. A country's relative attractiveness as a source of cheap labor is not a fixed thing. The cost savings for relocated work are not forever, but what comes next?

    In recent months there's been a lot of coverage of the rising labor unrest in China, and the resulting - and often dramatic - increases in salaries for manufacturing roles in the factories in the south of the country that have benefited so much from labor arbitrage.

    Seems that it's agitation by organised labour, rather than growth and the benevolence of employers that's the driving force behind wage increases, and that the imperative to follow the low wage trail isn't quite as cut-and-dried as it is made out to be.


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    Absolutely none of the post above this one has anything to do with the topic. These endless tangents are why I considered the argument to have been conceded a few pages ago. The latest one merely confirms it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    If your best responses to the above, particularly this are "tl;dr" and "irrelevant", without showing exactly how it's irrelevant, then I'm justified in thinking that "it's my ball and I'm going home" is the party line.

    Seeing as the case of 50,000 Bangladeshi garment workers was the hook to the OP, and that my above post deals primarily with the the Bangladeshi garment industry, it couldn't be more relevant to the topic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭SupaNova


    benway wrote: »
    To be fair, the ball had already been well and truly knocked out of the park.

    I repeat that this argument will be taken to have been conceded unless and until the substantive issues raised above are addressed.

    Another interesting point is that activists' attempts to impose minimum wage standards do not necessarily lead multinationals to move to other countries where wages are lower and there are fewer employment rights, and that a minimum wage, obviously, does help to reduce income inequality.

    The study covers a relatively short period of time, but would seem to suggest that constant pressure on the multinationals themselves to ensure that their supply chain is ethical, wherever it is based, would be the most effective tactic in ensuring that globalisation does in fact benefit these countries, rather than constituting just another exploitative poverty trap.

    The study is quite simplistic, it decides to isolate minimum wage laws and activism and ignore all other variables, finds a correlation and wolla higher minimum wage laws and pressure on multinationals was the reason wages and conditions got better. I'll ask again if that's the case why not raise minimum wage 10x tomorrow and require employers worldwide to provide gym facilities, 2 hour all you can eat buffet lunches, housing etc etc?
    Seems that it's agitation by organised labour, rather than growth and the benevolence of employers that's the driving force behind wage increases, and that the imperative to follow the low wage trail isn't quite as cut-and-dried as it is made out to be.

    If that's the case, is the fact that governments worldwide haven't mandated a minimum wage laws multiples of what they are now, and legislated employers provide 5 star hotel conditions a grand conspiracy of some kind?

    Or perhaps the simplistic study missed something?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    SupaNova wrote: »
    The study is quite simplistic, it decides to isolate minimum wage laws and activism and ignore all other variables, finds a correlation and wolla higher minimum wage laws and pressure on multinationals was the reason wages and conditions got better. I'll ask again if that's the case why not raise minimum wage 10x tomorrow and require employers worldwide to provide gym facilities, 2 hour all you can eat buffet lunches, housing etc etc?



    If that's the case, is the fact that governments worldwide haven't mandated a minimum wage laws multiples of what they are now, and legislated employers provide 5 star hotel conditions a grand conspiracy of some kind?

    Or perhaps the simplistic study missed something?
    That's kind of a strawman though? The purpose of a minimum wage is (from my view) to give workers the means the earn enough money to reach a minimally decent standard of living.

    Why would we want to "raise minimum wage 10x tomorrow and require employers worldwide to provide gym facilities, 2 hour all you can eat buffet lunches, housing etc etc"?

    EDIT: Anyone know a good text on Libertarian Socialism? Seems an interesting variety of Libertarianism, which is very different to the current prime definition of 'Libertarianism' in play in the US.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭SupaNova


    That's kind of a strawman though? The purpose of a minimum wage is (from my view) to give workers the means the earn enough money to reach a minimally decent standard of living.

    Why would we want to "raise minimum wage 10x tomorrow and require employers worldwide to provide gym facilities, 2 hour all you can eat buffet lunches, housing etc etc"?

    The conclusion benway has come to is the minimum wage laws and unions are responsible for reaching that decent standard of living, if that was the case why should we settle at a minimally decent standard of living? Or does it magically work if we only raise legislated conditions or minimum wage a little? Forgive me for thinking the conclusion is absurd and illogical when no logic has been presented that would answer these questions either by benway or in the study I have read through which benway linked.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    benway wrote: »
    If your best responses to the above, particularly this are "tl;dr" and "irrelevant", without showing exactly how it's irrelevant, then I'm justified in thinking that "it's my ball and I'm going home" is the party line.

    Seeing as the case of 50,000 Bangladeshi garment workers was the hook to the OP, and that my above post deals primarily with the the Bangladeshi garment industry, it couldn't be more relevant to the topic.

    Basically you demolished his argument. As for the topic, it seems to be Feudaliam and Child labor ( sic) and yet, there was no mention of feudalism.

    It is certain that trade union agitation increased the power of the working classes in Europe and the US, and that relative wages have declined after their demise.

    It is true that productivity - i.e. capitalist productivity - is one of the main reasons for wage growth. However it needs a market.

    If capitalism makes goods bought by average people cheaper then people on average get richer. This happens if capitalists are targeting the middle and lower income groups. However trade unionism matters too. In the absence of wage bargaining, as we have seen in the last two decades, the percentage of the wealth generated in society goes more and more to the top 1%. Who often invest it in useless economic activities, like property, or economic activities which are not really spreading the wealth. Give $10B extra a year to ten people and it won't flow around the economy as much as giving $10B to 10 million middle and lower income people, who will spend it. I am, note, not talking about re-distrubtion here in taxes, but wage increases at the front line. In the latter case a virtuous circle is formed, the consumer int the middle gets more money, buys more goods, capitalists who target the consumer in the middle get richer and hire more middle income consumers. Who buy more goods. Thats 1945-1975, and fitfully thereafter.

    Trade unionism helped reduce the profits on mass market companies in any one factory or company, but increased their market, over all. A non-zero sum game.

    In a world where more and more wealth goes to the top 1% ( and there are other factors besides trade union decline here, globalisation being one), the middle income group and poorer are cash poor, the capitalists targeting them can't increase their market as there is no money ( the only option is reducing margin, or wages, the latter - across all industries - causing a vicious spiral opposite to the virtuous one I mentioned above)

    This case, a slow decline, a reduction in consumer confidence, is what you would eventually expect as wage bargaining power disintegrates. Slow growth, no consumer confidence, and well,here we are.

    In the absence of trade unions, Government needs to intervene.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    SupaNova wrote: »
    The conclusion benway has come to is the minimum wage laws and unions are responsible for reaching that decent standard of living, if that was the case why should we settle at a minimally decent standard of living? Or does it magically work if we only raise legislated conditions or minimum wage a little? Forgive me for thinking the conclusion is absurd and illogical when no logic has been presented that would answer these questions either by benway or in the study I have read through which benway linked.

    You are presenting an argument ad absudum. an argument to extremes. It like someone in 1910 saying that old age pensions reduce poverty, and an opponent replying that we should give them all Palaces, if that worked.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    SupaNova wrote:
    The conclusion benway has come to is the minimum wage laws and unions are responsible for reaching that decent standard of living, if that was the case why should we settle at a minimally decent standard of living?
    In combination with other things, not solely on their own; an additional purpose is not just helping to reach a decent minimum standard of living, but maintaining it as well.

    The goal isn't for a sustained growth in the quality of living (that's not a bad goal, but it's not what minimum wage is for), it's for allowing a minimally decent quality of living.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 333 ✭✭Channel Zero


    SupaNova wrote: »
    The conclusion benway has come to is the minimum wage laws and unions are responsible for reaching that decent standard of living, if that was the case why should we settle at a minimally decent standard of living? Or does it magically work if we only raise legislated conditions or minimum wage a little? Forgive me for thinking the conclusion is absurd and illogical when no logic has been presented that would answer these questions either by benway or in the study I have read through which benway linked.

    It is not "the conclusion benway has come to". It is historical fact. Minimum wage laws, workers rights and associated legislation in response to workers demands are responsible for reaching a decent standard of living for everyone. As was the introduction of a re-distributative wealth tax.

    The free market left to its own devices throughout history was an abject and predictable failure in allowing for a decent standard of living for many. To look at 19th century economic and social standards and be in denial of this fact as some do, is an absolute joke. It really is. It takes confirmation bias to ridiculous new heights.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭SupaNova


    You are presenting an argument ad absudum. an argument to extremes. It like someone in 1910 saying that old age pensions reduce poverty, and an opponent replying that we should give them all Palaces, if that worked.

    Reducing an absurd belief to an absurdum doesn't take much work to be honest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭SupaNova


    In combination with other things, not solely on their own; an additional purpose is not just helping to reach a decent minimum standard of living, but maintaining it as well.

    The goal isn't for a sustained growth in the quality of living (that's not a bad goal, but it's not what minimum wage is for), it's for allowing a minimally decent quality of living.

    It doesn't answer my question though, if unions and legislation are responsible for a minimally decent quality of living, why can unions not legislate a good standard of living, you don't have to explain how we even get to lavish quality of living.

    I'm generally willing to change my view if someone shed some light on these questions, rather than go on a rant, not accusing you of this, but some are eager to do so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭SupaNova


    It is not "the conclusion benway has come to". It is historical fact. Minimum wage laws, workers rights and associated legislation in response to workers demands are responsible for reaching a decent standard of living for everyone. As was the introduction of a re-distributative wealth tax.

    The free market left to its own devices throughout history was an abject and predictable failure in allowing for a decent standard of living for many. To look at 19th century economic and social standards and be in denial of this fact as some do, is an absolute joke. It really is.It takes confirmation bias to ridiculous new heights.

    You don't even have to attribute the industrial revolution and the increase in our standard of living it brought about to the free market if you wish, attribute it to human ingenuity and there ability to master the environment around them. Wages and working conditions are limited by our ability to produce wealth on mass, we cannot improve those conditions by the mere flick of a pen.

    The confirmation bias is clearly on your side unless you can provide logic and reason as to how we can get wealthier by legislation, as opposed to increasing our ability to produce. The study linked to is a perfect example of confirmation bias on your side of the argument.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 333 ✭✭Channel Zero


    SupaNova wrote: »
    Wages and working conditions are limited by our ability to produce wealth on mass, we cannot improve those conditions by the mere flick of a pen.

    How ridiculous. Grinding poverty was massively alleviated by the 'flick of a pen'. I suggest you go and research that. I have no time to educate you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 333 ✭✭Channel Zero


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    This is propaganda. Pure and simple. You again misrepresent Sachs' views to your own end.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭SupaNova


    How ridiculous. Grinding poverty was massively alleviated by the 'flick of a pen'. I suggest you go and research that. I have no time to educate you.

    Well we are talking about minimum wage laws in particular, I have looked at studies before this thread and one in this thread, they came to a conclusion of causation based on a correlation, excluding a myriad of factors and other explanations, poor to say the least. Maybe you can point me to a better one or defend the one I'm criticizing. At least part with some of your educated view on the subject. Is your view based on studies? Can you at least provide a link. If its based on logical reasoning, why cant we just increase minimum wage and mandate better working conditions tomorrow to massively alleviate grinding poverty?


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