Prime Time 10th March 2015

Cass · 11-03-2015 12:14am

Exactly. As i said earlier when you know who you are going up against, their agenda, the previous hatchet jobs by RTE (long range shooting a while ago, etc) how did they think it was going to go?

John_Rambo · 11-03-2015 12:17am

Cass wrote: »

Exactly. As i said earlier when you know who you are going up against, their agenda, the previous hatchet jobs by RTE (long range shooting a while ago, etc) how did they think it was going to go?

You need to re-lawyer up.

Grizzly 45 · 11-03-2015 12:20am

No we need to PR on TV up! Who TF thought Egan was the man for this particular job??

Cass · 11-03-2015 12:22am

John_Rambo wrote: »

You need to re-lawyer up.

No. you need someone that knows their sh*t. not someone fumbling for pages, couldn't keep a few stats in his head, a few prepared remarks, and most definitely someone prepared for their opponent. Also a little shouty or able to hold his ground would have been nice, but i suppose that is too much?

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

No we need to PR on TV up! Who TF thought Egan was the man for this particular job??

I asked that at the start of this thread? No answer.

jagged · 11-03-2015 12:23am

Cass wrote: »

Exactly. As i said earlier when you know who you are going up against, their agenda, the previous hatchet jobs by RTE (long range shooting a while ago, etc) how did they think it was going to go?

Spot on cass. Public safety was going to be their number one angle, IMHO we were not prepared,

I agree O'Callaghan give little chance, but when figures were being twisted he should have interrupted and used the public against McGrath, I.e. 'The public need to know the TRUE figures from the Dept Of Justice, and also in context, he made it look like it was 1700 guns stolen last year!!

Witcher · 11-03-2015 12:25am

jagged wrote: »

I.e. 'The public need to know the TRUE figures from the Dept If Justice, and also in context, he made it look like it was 1700 guns stolen last year!!

In fairness to him he tried exactly that and O'Callaghan cut right across him and told him to stop as people would be getting overwhelmed with figures but then proceeded to allow McGrath fire out figures.

Birdnuts · 11-03-2015 12:30am

Was even worse than I feared. McGrath's logic was laughable and his nonsense was indulged by the blonde in the middle. RTE's approach was lazy journalism at its worst - an increasing trend across all types of media in this country. No interest in facts, just generate hysteria that suits the mood of the day. At least I can choose not to pay for rubbish in the gutter press, but RTE gets 170 euro of my money every year via the licence fee for producing cr*p like this:mad:

Grizzly 45 · 11-03-2015 12:31am

Strider wrote: »

In fairness to him he tried exactly that and O'Callaghan cut right across him and told him to stop as people would be getting overwhelmed with figures but then proceeded to allow McGrath fire out figures.

So there is our first complaint to RTE and the broadcasting complaints comission.

Cass · 11-03-2015 12:34am

Look, i'm not sticking the boot in because i can sit back in my chair and dissect it retrospectively. I was not on because i'm not the person for it, not even close, not even a tiny, little bit. It's why we have people representing out interests.

That being said there could have been short, one line answers that would demand elaboration and keep the attention on what we needed saying. Such as (McGrath asking - Our answers):

Mass shooting - With over 150 years of history there has never been such an incident.
150,000 illegal firearms - Quote your source please.
Public safety - Over 150 years of history, longer than the GAA, no instances of public endangerment.
I'm concerned for the public - Then why are you trying to repeal the smoking ban in public places.
That's not relevant - Gardaí cannot issue licenses to unsafe people. That would be unlawful.
1700 stolen legal firearms - You were informed of the falsehood of those statistics last week or have you forgotten?
We don't want America type culture here - We cannot have that as the would law prohibits such a culture and we don't have a constitutional right to firearms.

There are probably much better answers than the ones above (reason i would not be asked or volunteer should be obvious now) but you get the idea. McGrath is well versed at this and does it for a living. Holding our own would have been a victory. We didn't get that.

clawback07 · 11-03-2015 12:35am

Mc Grath repeatedly referred to shotguns in outhouses - the only other reference I saw to this was from the guy at the range supposedly defending Irish shooting sports and before that on the thread about garda proposals to ban shooting . One can only suppose Mc Grath follows these threads as well.

Witcher · 11-03-2015 12:36am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So there is our first complaint to RTE and the broadcasting complaints comission.

+1

People on FB are saying Egan should have said this, that, and the other but the man wasn't even allowed the time to say that the actual figure for stolen firearms was actually far less that the Gardai suggested.

I mean this was one of the most important issues up for debate and they cut him off when he had barely said two words. If anything the man was just too polite, he should have shut her up and said 'Yeah, but these figures kinda matter Miriam.'

jagged · 11-03-2015 12:41am

Strider wrote: »

In fairness to him he tried exactly that and O'Callaghan cut right across him and told him to stop as people would be getting overwhelmed with figures but then proceeded to allow McGrath fire out figures.

He waffled on about figures instead of stating that McGrath was not telling the truth, (that's all joe public would need to remember, not numbers) he only had a couple of seconds to get his point across, and had to check his notes for figures,

yubabill1 · 11-03-2015 12:43am

I don't know where my tweets went - was tweeting to prime time from early, but none showed up.

crusier · 11-03-2015 12:48am

yubabill1 wrote: »

I don't know where my tweets went - was tweeting to prime time from early, but none showed up.

They got through to Sean Gallagher when he was on primetime!

Sparks · 11-03-2015 12:51am

Geebus, but it's even worse watching it the second time around when taking notes for the complaint.

Pedro K · 11-03-2015 12:51am

yubabill1 wrote: »

I don't know where my tweets went - was tweeting to prime time from early, but none showed up.

Assuming your username is the same on Twitter (you favourited one of my tweets) I can see your tweets to PT, Miriam and McGrath.

yubabill1 · 11-03-2015 12:57am

Pedro K wrote: »

Assuming your username is the same on Twitter (you favourited one of my tweets) I can see your tweets to PT, Miriam and McGrath.

Cheers, man.

I don't fully understand twitter.

I see nothing on Politics.ie or Vincent Browne about this, BTW, but IRA sex abuse and temporary-legal highs making plenty of waves.

Think most people can see though the sensationalism around these proposals.

I'm not over-concerned, but keeping an eye out for stories.

Nekarsulm · 11-03-2015 1:02am

There really is no level to which Finian will not stoop for the sake of a vote.
Are we to expect a ban on bridges, rope, gas ovens and sleeping pills?
Disgraceful plundering of the depths of family suffering, all to appear concerned about "Public Safety"

yubabill1 · 11-03-2015 1:14am

Sparks wrote: »

Geebus, but it's even worse watching it the second time around when taking notes for the complaint.

Gonna watch it again now.

Heckler · 11-03-2015 1:52am

Can't remember the mans name but the chair of the recent discussions that Sparks was involved in seemed like a level-headed fella. Would it maybe be an idea to email him to point out the nonsense dished out on tonights Primetime ?

yubabill1 · 11-03-2015 1:53am

just finished watching the report - actually missed much of it because was using twitterboard.

Absolute drivel - McGrath was useless and off-topic most of the time

he wants to ban handguns because rifles and shotguns are left lying around in outhouses

dysfunctional kids will rampage with easily-accessible guns

Straight from Wikipedia.

Whole article looks shoddy and totally disinteresting to anyone not interested in guns or gun control. Full stop.

And it looks twice as shoddy and filler-material when "another Breivik or Dunblane happening here" precedes a heavy piece about IRA sex abuse.

patsat · 11-03-2015 2:03am

What are the chances of something like this ever getting some time on Tonight with Vincent Browne.

He might be a friend of ours in a situation like this as he is not one to entertain made up facts.

Sparks · 11-03-2015 2:08am

http://guns.ie/2015/03/11/prime-time-pull-another-hatchet-job-on-target-shooting/

Email sent to complaints@rte.ie:

Sparks wrote:

Dear Sir/Madam,
I wish to make several complaints regarding the above Prime Time
report, on the grounds that it violated the Broadcasting Act 2009,
Section 39(1)(a) and 39(1)(b). My specific complaints are:

1. That the report failed completely to present to the public the
current state of the firearms licencing laws, including any coverage of
the basic requirements for obtaining a firearms licence or the powers
granted to the Gardai and the duties placed on the Gardai by the law in
relation to firearms licencing and public safety.

2. That the report failed completely to present to the public the
actual proposals which have been made by the Department of Justice
Working Group and which the Joint Oireachtas Committee are considering.

3. That the report failed to make clear that the proposals will only
affect firearms which are solely used for target shooting and that no
proposals have been made regarding the criminal abuse of firearms, or
regarding the minimum security standards for firearms ownership.

4. That the report failed to permit equal time and equal opportunity
for both interviewed guests to make their case, with Deputy McGrath
being allowed to ignore the host and speak over Mr.Egan on several
occasions for a significant period of time.

5. That the report failed to present the evidence which had been sent
to its producer regarding significant flaws in the Garda statistics
which Deputy McGrath mentioned regarding stolen firearms; to wit, that
approximately 1700 firearms had been stolen between 2010 and 2014,
a number which transpired upon the release of the raw data by the
Minister in the Dail on March 3 to include hundreds of items which are
not legally firearms in Ireland and which no reasonable person would
count as a firearm, for example, 12 toy guns, 26 gun safes and so
forth.

6. That the report failed to question the Garda statistics from PULSE
given the flaws in the data regarding stolen firearms which the
producer of the report was informed of by email the week prior to the
report, and which Deputy McGrath was informed of by Oireachtas
correspondence the week prior to the report.

7. That the report contrived, with both sinister sounding music and
graphics, to portray the legal ownership of firearms in a negative
light despite a perfect safety record for the firearms under
discussion (see time index 2:20)

8. That the report on several occasions displayed airsoft replicas
which are not firearms in a way which unfairly portrayed legal firearms
ownership (see time index 1:25)

9. That the report used terms such as “gun enthusiast” instead of the
correct term “target shooter”, creating a negative image of the target
shooters being interviewed, who are no more enthusiasts of guns than a
GAA hurling all-star is an enthusiast of sticks (see time index 3:40)

10. That the report portrayed the official scheduled inspection of
the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice to the range at Nurney as a
happenstance casual visit (see time index 3:46) and that the report
made no mention of the members of the Joint Committee who did not
attend this official scheduled inspection nor of the official meeting
with the Gardai at Garda HQ on the same day, including Deputy McGrath.

11. That the report continually gave uninterrupted time to the victims
of criminal acts to elicit an emotional reaction while editing the
statements of other interviewees, despite the fact that the proposals
under discussion do not affect in any way the portions of the Firearms
Act which deal with criminal abuse of firearms (see time index 1:50,
6:20, 7:30).

12. That on several occasions, the report showed footage of firearms
which cannot be legally licenced anywhere in the EU under EU directive
91/477/EEC Section 6 while discussing proposals that only affect the
legal licencing of firearms, thus creating an impression that such
firearms are under discussion when they are not (see time index 7:58)

13. That the report presented figures in a highly misleading context,
stating that there were approximately 200,000 firearms in Ireland
without explaining that this means we have the fourth lowest firearms
ownership rate in the EU (see time index 4:26) and without explaining
that the term “Firearm” in Ireland has a very wide legal definition and
includes many items that the general public would not consider to be
firearms as well as the EU in general, which would lower our ownership
rate even further.

14. That the report presented figures without any form of context
in a manner which created fear in the audience, such as listing the
statistic of approximately 1,800 licenced handguns in Ireland without
the context that this represented a 30% reduction in handgun ownership
compared to the ownership levels before the Gardai refused to licence
pistols in 1972 (unconstitutionally according to the Supreme Court in
Brophy and McCarron) (see time index 4:47)

15. That on several occasions it was alleged or implied that firearms
stolen from licenced firearms owners were used in crime, but at no time
was it made clear that despite repeated requests in the Dail, had any
confirmed case of a stolen handgun being used in crime been recorded
(see time index 5:15)

16. That the report completely failed to discuss the current powers and
obligations on the Gardai with respect to the issuing of firearms and
public safety as laid forth in Section 4(2)(b) of the Firearms Act as
amended and Section 5 of the same act, nor at any time were the Gardai
asked to comment on these powers and duties (see time index 6:20)

17. That Olympic pistol shooting was misrepresented by the report as
having a defined standard pistol, which it does not; indeed many of the
firearms the proposals would affect may be used in the Olympics. This
was not mentioned in the report at all (see time index 8:36)

18. That the report discussed Olympic pistol shooting without any
Olympic shooting expert being interviewed or consulted to confirm facts
presented in the report by non-experts such as Chief Superintendent
Healy who is not an ISSF accredited expert on Olympic target shooting
(see time index 8:40)

19. That the report used unfair editing and voiceover narration to
portray deer stalking in a very negative light (see time index 9:23),
failing to present the reasons for deer stalking, the legislation
governing it, the effects that banning it would have and portraying it
as a casual activity undertaken without significant reason.

20. That the report stated that deer hunting rifles would not be
affected by the Working Group’s proposals which is categorically untrue
as the proposals would introduce new and arguably erroneous or
frivolous grounds to refuse to licence deer hunting rifles (see time
index 10:15)

21. That the report introduced and discussed mass shootings in
Hungerford and Dunblane without discussing their context or details,
ignoring the many issues that the Cullen Inquiry raised with the
Scottish Police in Dunblane and the documented incidents preceding
Hungerford, all of which would have permitted the police to preempt
those shootings under existing legislation (see time index 11:00)

22. That blatent editing was used by the report to cut off an
interviewee while he was attempting to explain the many safeguards
present in existing firearms licencing law, thus giving the impression
to the audience of a less regulated situation than exists in reality
(see time index 13:!3)

23. That the interview permitted the use of unsubstantiated and
incorrect statistics without challange despite the producer having been
informed of the problems with these statistics over a week beforehand
(see time index 15:47, 16:46)

24. That the host of the interview in the report deliberately prevented
Mr.Egan from correcting Deputy McGrath’s use of an incorrect statistic
relating to stolen firearms by saying Mr.Egan would “bamboozle us with
statistics” even though the producer of the report had been informed a
week earlier of the flaws in that statistic as related by the Minister
in the Dail.

25. That at no point in the report was the context for the proposals
presented, including but not limited to the several million euro bill the Gardai are
facing in court costs for over six hundred and fifty lost court cases
regarding licencing; the several supreme court judgement which have
stated that the Gardai and Minister acted unlawfully in regard to
firearms licencing for over thirty years; or the current development
which has seen District Court case appeals being permitted to seek
costs from the Gardai in the event of an applicant being successful in
appealing a licencing decision.

26. That at no point in the report was it presented that firearms
owners played an enormous role in drafting the current legislation
through the Firearms Consultation Panel.

27. That at no point in the report was any mention made nor footage
shown of the Joint Oireachtas Committee hearings on the current
proposals.
Yours sincerely,

Grizzly 45 · 11-03-2015 2:16am

Heckler wrote: »

Can't remember the mans name but the chair of the recent discussions that Sparks was involved in seemed like a level-headed fella. Would it maybe be an idea to email him to point out the nonsense dished out on tonights Primetime ?

David Stanton FG... Yeah I think from meeting him personaly he has his head firmly screwed on the right way and will be able to see thru alot of this nonsense from Mc Grath,who is considerd abit eccentic by most TDs in the Dail,and that is saying somthing in itself...

A man who thinks CUBA is a brilliant place to live..Yeah no guns owned privately there either..And freedom of speech isnt rated to highly there either

A man who wants to remove the smoking ban for his own personal pleasure and wants the Govt "fascist health police " to give him a break?

A man who claims to value integrity as a politican according to his web page?
A man who couldnt even go down to a laid on shoot to see whether his arguements had fact or reality,but stayed away because he thought it would "inflame things" IOW he is an utter COWARD! who doesnt even dare challange his own belifs.
TBH the guy has been described as anti gun and as slippery as Dianne Feinstein on an american shooting board watching our struggle intently.
Yeah ,having this debate on Vincent Browne mightnt be too bad an idea.At least if we are there we might be able to shout this clown down.

Heckler · 11-03-2015 2:20am

Wow you've been busy Sparks ! Nice job.

Heckler · 11-03-2015 2:22am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

David Stanton FG... Yeah I think from meeting him personaly he has his head firmly screwed on the right way and will be able to see thru alot of this nonsense from Mc Grath,who is considerd abit eccentic by most TDs in the Dail,and that is saying somthing in itself...

A man who thinks CUBA is a brilliant place to live..Yeah no guns owned privately there either..And freedom of speech isnt rated to highly there either

A man who wants to remove the smoking ban for his own personal pleasure and wants the Govt "fascist health police " to give him a break?

A man who claims to value integrity as a politican according to his web page?
A man who couldnt even go down to a laid on shoot to see whether his arguements had fact or reality,but stayed away because he thought it would "inflame things" IOW he is an utter COWARD! who doesnt even dare challange his own belifs.
TBH the guy has been described as anti gun and as slippery as Dianne Feinstein on an american shooting board watching our struggle intently.
Yeah ,having this debate on Vincent Browne mightnt be too bad an idea.At least if we are there we might be able to shout this clown down.

I emailed McGrath earlier expressing my disgust and mentioned his so called public safety stance in the face of his smoking push (I'm a smoker and thought the ban was the best thing ever introduced) Any link to that American shooting board ? Be interesting to see their views. Must be shaking their heads incredulously !

Grizzly 45 · 11-03-2015 2:22am

Sparks wrote: »

http://guns.ie/2015/03/11/prime-time-pull-another-hatchet-job-on-target-shooting/

Email sent to complaints@rte.ie:

Ohh Sparks That will get you another page in your DOJ Stasi file like the last time you,me and three others protested to RTE in 2008.:D:D

Sparks · 11-03-2015 2:32am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ohh Sparks That will get you another page in your DOJ Stasi file like the last time you,me and three others protested to RTE in 2008.:D:D

You might be giving people too much credit - when the Prime Time producer called me back in February, I told her right at the start about those complaints. She didn't even know about them.

recipio · 11-03-2015 2:32am

TV is all about appearance and soundbites. Someone should tell Egan to drop the pin striped suit, answer McGrath with a few sharp rebuffs and present us as the silent law abiding majority of gun owners.You can ban everything - if you want to end up in a police state.

Grizzly 45 · 11-03-2015 2:44am

recipio wrote: »

TV is all about appearance and soundbites. Someone should tell Egan to drop the pin striped suit, answer McGrath with a few sharp rebuffs and present us as the silent law abiding majority of gun owners.You can ban everything - if you want to end up in a police state.

A bit late now after the fact...Egan was not the right man for this job.Even Healy Rae would have been a better choice,at least he would have chopped McGarth down to size.Serious questions need to be asked who authorised Egan for this show???

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Prime Time 10th March 2015

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Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County