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Kerry GAA Discussion Thread Mod Warning Post #4167

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,938 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    keane2097 wrote: »
    Five out of seven backs, both midfielders, five out of six forwards all under thirty. Of the twelve of them, two are late twenties, the rest are mid twenties. A team with an average age in the mid-twenties doesn't run out of steam because of mileage.

    It's lazy analysis and you should think about it more before wasting so much time writing such a long post about it.

    You are really using the untested young guys to drag that average age down into it's mid twenties.

    I am talking about the core Kerry players that have been instrumental for the past decade
    Aidan O'Mahony (31) - 9th season
    Colm Cooper (29) - 11th season
    Eoin Brosnan (32) - 13th season
    Star (29) - 8th season
    Marc (32) - 11th season
    Galvin (32) - 9th season
    Tom O' Sullivan (33) - 13th season
    Tom O' Se - (33) - 15th season
    Declan - 28 - 10th season
    Darran - (26) - 8th season

    And those seasons are long, going all the way to September in most.

    Most of the above will be expected to play a part for Kerry in 2012.

    I think the lazy analysis lies with the people who willing to dismiss this as a non factor

    It's head in the sand stuff to ignore it.

    Note - ages may not be accurate, got them from http://www.kerrygaa.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2357&Itemid=100060


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,764 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    You are really using the untested young guys to drag that average age down into it's mid twenties.

    The point is if you're trying to suggest that the game against Dublin and the game against Mayo together point to a pattern then the basis for the pattern is obviously, patently, demonstrably not "mileage", since the mileage of the lineups in question is extremely varied.

    The idea that two games can be used to derive such a pattern is laughable by the way, the phrase "lolsamplesize" springs to mind. And even if there was a pattern, all you've done is identified one thing that simply can't be responsible for it.
    I am talking about the core Kerry players that have been instrumental for the past decade
    Aidan O'Mahony (31) - 9th season
    Colm Cooper (29) - 11th season
    Eoin Brosnan (32) - 13th season
    Star (29) - 8th season
    Marc (32) - 11th season
    Galvin (32) - 9th season
    Tom O' Sullivan (33) - 13th season
    Tom O' Se - (33) - 15th season
    Declan - 28 - 10th season
    Darran - (26) - 8th season

    I was going to go through this list one by one but tbh there's no need since you're argument disproves itself.

    Tomás O'Sé was the best player on the field in the All Ireland Final last year as well as the Semi Final against your own county. He was 33, playing in his 14th (15th?) season.

    And your argument is that Darran O'Sullivan at 25 (he's 25) in his 8th season has too many miles on the clock.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭ciarriaithuaidh


    :D Love that show!

    Fr Tod, I'd agree with Keane here to a larger extent. When you talk of players having "mileage on the clock" or other such phrases, you need to look at their performances on the pitch and assess whether they have:
    1. The pace
    2. Stamina
    3. Appetite...to make a difference on the big day.

    As Keane pointed out Tomás was flying until the very end of last years AI..I disagree that he was the best on the field, but thats not the point...he lacked none of the 3 above on the day..despite being the longest serving player on the field. Tom Sullivan likewise, had a stormer..I just wish he hadn't made that 1 reckless handpass...

    I will concede that both O'Mahony & Brosnan visibly wilted to me in the last 10 mins, but funnily enough we have plenty of fresh young talent in the half backline who could cover in that scenario were it to happen now.

    The rest of those mentioned, Gooch etc..will be raring to go come August/September.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,764 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    The thing you have to remember is that Kerry have played multiples of the number of games most other counties have over the last decade, pure maths alone will tell you that occasionally they are going to lose a game in the last ten minutes.

    Having it happen twice in six months/ten games is very, very far from suggestive of a consistent problem. When you add in the fact that we've held off comebacks (our last two games against Cork), made comebacks of our own (last week against Mayo) and comfortably won almost every game we've been involved in it pales to the realms of wishful thinking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,764 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Will also concede off-hand that Brosnan and O'Mahony have that much mileage that they're starting to struggle at times, but they won't both play at the same time anymore so it's hardly a crippling problem.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,938 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    keane2097 wrote: »
    The point is if you're trying to suggest that the game against Dublin and the game against Mayo together point to a pattern then the basis for the pattern is obviously, patently, demonstrably not "mileage", since the mileage of the lineups in question is extremely varied.

    The idea that two games can be used to derive such a pattern is laughable by the way, the phrase "lolsamplesize" springs to mind. And even if there was a pattern, all you've done is identified one thing that simply can't be responsible for it.

    You obviously did the read were I said 'it's only April and you cannot read too much into fitness now, but back last September the 'lot of mileage' may have been a contributing factor'
    keane2097 wrote: »
    I was going to go through this list one by one but tbh there's no need since you're argument disproves itself.

    Tomás O'Sé was the best player on the field in the All Ireland Final last year as well as the Semi Final against your own county. He was 33, playing in his 14th (15th?) season.

    And your argument is that Darran O'Sullivan at 25 (he's 25) in his 8th season has too many miles on the clock.

    Your reference to Tomás O'Sé just highlights the 'head in the sand' mentality
    'He did it last year so he can do it this year'

    Does Tomás O'Sé have enough in the tank to contribute in 8 Championship games ?
    And his discipline must also be looked at, two sendings off in the league would worry any manager.

    The Darran O' Sullivan reference is just to highlight at even at the age of 25 he has been playing championship football for 7 seasons.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,764 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Your reference to Tomás O'Sé just highlights the 'head in the sand' mentality
    'He did it last year so he can do it this year'

    No, I'm just pointing out that if he was able to do it at 33 and after 15 seasons, it's pretty unlikely that the various other players you've mentioned are in trouble having played less, in many cases much, much less.

    It's also worth noting that you were beating the same drum about him having too many miles on the clock before he utterly lorded it against Mayo in the semi final.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,938 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    :D Love that show!

    Fr Tod, I'd agree with Keane here to a larger extent. When you talk of players having "mileage on the clock" or other such phrases, you need to look at their performances on the pitch and assess whether they have:
    1. The pace
    2. Stamina
    3. Appetite...to make a difference on the big day.

    As Keane pointed out Tomás was flying until the very end of last years AI..I disagree that he was the best on the field, but thats not the point...he lacked none of the 3 above on the day..despite being the longest serving player on the field. Tom Sullivan likewise, had a stormer..I just wish he hadn't made that 1 reckless handpass...

    I will concede that both O'Mahony & Brosnan visibly wilted to me in the last 10 mins, but funnily enough we have plenty of fresh young talent in the half backline who could cover in that scenario were it to happen now.

    The rest of those mentioned, Gooch etc..will be raring to go come August/September.

    But that talent has yet to be tested a championship level
    keane2097 wrote: »
    The thing you have to remember is that Kerry have played multiples of the number of games most other counties have over the last decade, pure maths alone will tell you that occasionally they are going to lose a game in the last ten minutes.

    Having it happen twice in six months/ten games is very, very far from suggestive of a consistent problem. When you add in the fact that we've held off comebacks (our last two games against Cork), made comebacks of our own (last week against Mayo) and comfortably won almost every game we've been involved in it pales to the realms of wishful thinking.

    Kerry had to empty the bench of their old guard (Galvin, two D O' Sullivans, Marc O' Se) to make that comeback in Tralee.
    keane2097 wrote: »
    No, I'm just pointing out that if he was able to do it at 33 and after 15 seasons, it's pretty unlikely that the various other players you've mentioned are in trouble having played less, in many cases much, much less.

    It's also worth noting that you were beating the same drum about him having too many miles on the clock before he utterly lorded it against Mayo in the semi final.

    I certainly was, and I was incorrect.
    I think Mayo's inexperience played a factor on that day too.
    Not that it was the losing of the game but it was a factor.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,764 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Kerry had to empty the bench of their old guard (Galvin, two D O' Sullivans, Marc O' Se) to make that comeback in Tralee.

    So what? They're all still available to us :confused:
    I certainly was, and I was incorrect.
    I think Mayo's inexperience played a factor on that day too.
    Not that it was the losing of the game but it was a factor.

    I didn't mean that as a dig even though reading back it probably looked a bit like one. What I was trying to get at was the fact that maybe you've got a fixation on this mileage thing and are seeing a problem where there isn't one.

    As CT said above, if you think certain players have lost their pace, strength, stamina or hunger then you have an argument to make about their mileage, but besides Brosnan and O'Mahony I really don't think there's any evidence whatsoever that what you're saying is right.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭ciarriaithuaidh


    You obviously did the read were I said 'it's only April and you cannot read too much into fitness now, but back last September the 'lot of mileage' may have been a contributing factor'



    Your reference to Tomás O'Sé just highlights the 'head in the sand' mentality
    'He did it last year so he can do it this year'

    Does Tomás O'Sé have enough in the tank to contribute in 8 Championship games ?
    And his discipline must also be looked at, two sendings off in the league would worry any manager.

    The Darran O' Sullivan reference is just to highlight at even at the age of 25 he has been playing championship football for 7 seasons.

    8? Who needs to peak for 8 games? Sweet Jeebus man, surely you're aware of training cycles and all that? Kerry play Cork on June 10th, they'll be after peaking in 1 cycle for that game. Munster final is July 8th..if they get there. 1/4 finals are first week of August in Croker. That is when they will hit near the top of the second cycle....keep it ticking over for the semi and then go flat out for 2 1/2 weeks before 10 days of mere tuning for the final..........

    Thats the ideal scenario anyway...4 real meaningful games. Thats not being arrogant, just honest. Of course, lose to Cork and we're down the qualifier route which is a whole different kettle of fish.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,706 ✭✭✭premierstone


    8? Who needs to peak for 8 games? Sweet Jeebus man, surely you're aware of training cycles and all that? Kerry play Cork on June 10th, they'll be after peaking in 1 cycle for that game. Munster final is July 8th..if they get there. 1/4 finals are first week of August in Croker. That is when they will hit near the top of the second cycle....keep it ticking over for the semi and then go flat out for 2 1/2 weeks before 10 days of mere tuning for the final..........

    Thats the ideal scenario anyway...4 real meaningful games. Thats not being arrogant, just honest. Of course, lose to Cork and we're down the qualifier route which is a whole different kettle of fish.

    Have Tipp withdrawn from this years championship or am I missing something??


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,385 ✭✭✭✭D'Agger


    Does it not ?

    In their last two games at Croke Park they have failed to close out the game with 5 odd minutes left, and instead of going up the field and killing off games they have started playing it around the middle and end up loosing possession and the game as a result.

    Now I know it's only April and you cannot read too much into fitness now, but back last September the 'lot of mileage' may have been a contributing factor to failing to kill off Dublin.
    Were they flat on their feet after 65 mins of hard football ?


    IMO this is ridiculous - their inability to close out a game shows weakness of resolve rather than tiredness from having a lot of mileage built up tbqh

    Kerry being in Croke Park around the business end of the season every year for the past how many years shouldn't, at least imo, affect their ability to play football in the last 5mins of any game.

    If any argument was to be made it would be lack of hunger but honestly I don't think this is the case either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭ciarriaithuaidh


    Have Tipp withdrawn from this years championship or am I missing something??

    If all non-Kerry people could please not view this thread that would be great..move along now! :D

    Ok, sorry premier, not being arrogant but I'm just being realistic. Minor/U-21 maybe, but it'll be a while before ye'll beat us at senior level even if ye are heading in the right direction. Tipp minors will take stopping again this year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,385 ✭✭✭✭D'Agger


    keane2097 wrote: »
    It's a while since you ran one of your Garnett for Kerry campaigns...
    He's got no miles on the clock tbf


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,764 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    We have trouble with leadership and discipline when things get tough IMO.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,385 ✭✭✭✭D'Agger


    I think Daragh was a huge loss in that respect for us - an obvious point really but when you look at it, we do seem to have lost that killer instinct somewhat and he had bags of it


  • Registered Users Posts: 583 ✭✭✭68Murph68


    Not 100% on the ages but these are the ages of those that took part in the league.

    Without a doubt there are going to be some more retirements but I'm not massively worried.

    There seems to be little or no mention of the fact that something like 6 of the squad had a virus the last day and it still took a horrendous mistake from Donaghy plus an exceptional goal by Mayo to get the win.

    Given the current panel has 4 player of the years (Marc, Tomas, Cooper and Donaghy) the odds are that there will be some weakening of the team in the future. However there is undoubtedly still a raft of quality players in the squad for the next few years.

    Brendan Kealy 26
    Tomás Mac an tSaoir 23
    Brian Kelly 22


    Séamus Scanlon 31
    Bryan Sheehan 27
    Anthony Maher 25
    Johnny Buckley 23


    Tomás Ó Sé 34
    Eoin Brosnan 32
    Aidan O'Mahony 32
    Marc Ó Sé 32
    Daniel Bohan 29
    Killian Young 25
    Shane Enright 24
    Jonathan Lyne 23
    Peter Crowley 23
    Brian McGuire 23
    Fionn Fitzgerald 22

    Paul Galvin 32
    Declan O'Sullivan 29
    Kieran Donaghy 29
    Colm Cooper 29
    Donnacha Walsh 28
    David O'Callaghan 26
    Darran O'Sullivan 26
    Kieran O'Leary 25
    Daithí Casey 23
    Mikey Geaney 23
    Patrick Curtin 23
    Barry John Keane 23
    James O'Donoghue 23

    Also there are a number of others knocking around who are surely in with a shout as regards inter-county standard and might figure at some stage. This is without even looking at the U21s/minors

    David Moran - 24
    Aidan O'Shea - 27 what's his status? heard talk he was taking some time out to sort out some injuries
    Tommy Walsh - 24 -
    Barry John Walsh - 22
    Mike Moloney - 24 hard not to see him making the panel next year, given his experience once he gets back playing with Crokes
    Stam -27
    Paul Geaney -??

    Without a doubt I'm forgetting some other players, but I don't think it's a matter of any serious concern.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,938 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    keane2097 wrote: »
    So what? They're all still available to us :confused:



    I didn't mean that as a dig even though reading back it probably looked a bit like one. What I was trying to get at was the fact that maybe you've got a fixation on this mileage thing and are seeing a problem where there isn't one.

    As CT said above, if you think certain players have lost their pace, strength, stamina or hunger then you have an argument to make about their mileage, but besides Brosnan and O'Mahony I really don't think there's any evidence whatsoever that what you're saying is right.

    No dig taken, I think I may have been 12 monts too early with my analysis then

    My fixation is that I find most Kerry folk are too willing to ignore the fact that time is cathching up with the core of the Kerry team.

    8? Who needs to peak for 8 games? Sweet Jeebus man, surely you're aware of training cycles and all that? Kerry play Cork on June 10th, they'll be after peaking in 1 cycle for that game. Munster final is July 8th..if they get there. 1/4 finals are first week of August in Croker. That is when they will hit near the top of the second cycle....keep it ticking over for the semi and then go flat out for 2 1/2 weeks before 10 days of mere tuning for the final..........

    Thats the ideal scenario anyway...4 real meaningful games. Thats not being arrogant, just honest. Of course, lose to Cork and we're down the qualifier route which is a whole different kettle of fish.

    Ok lets count
    1 = Tipp
    2 = Cork - Big possibility of a loss
    3 = Qualifier round 2
    4 = Qualifier round 3
    5 = Qualifier round 4
    6 = QF - v prov. champions, including Cork
    7 = Sf
    8 = Final

    Lossing to Cork is a real possibility so the qualifiers may be a dangerous route, and this team is not a patch on the team that took the same route in 2009


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,385 ✭✭✭✭D'Agger


    My fixation is that I find most Kerry folk are too willing to ignore the fact that time is cathching up with the core of the Kerry team.

    With all due respect, Kerry people might tend to ignore it because for the past number of years when that line has been trotted out we've still ended up in or around the AI final.

    Don't mistake it for cockiness but when you hear enough of something that hasn't held up previously you're going to tend to ignore it somewhat


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,764 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    PaulieC wrote: »
    With all due respect, Kerry people might tend to ignore it because for the past number of years when that line has been trotted out we've still ended up in or around the AI final.

    Don't mistake it for cockiness but when you hear enough of something that hasn't held up previously you're going to tend to ignore it somewhat

    This. We've been leggy since 2003.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,346 ✭✭✭✭homerjay2005


    anybody go to the minor match v waterford?

    i think its limerick up next week now aint it? this could be a very painful year at minor level.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,361 ✭✭✭✭DDC1990


    No dig taken, I think I may have been 12 monts too early with my analysis then

    My fixation is that I find most Kerry folk are too willing to ignore the fact that time is cathching up with the core of the Kerry team.




    Ok lets count
    1 = Tipp
    2 = Cork - Big possibility of a loss
    3 = Qualifier round 2
    4 = Qualifier round 3
    5 = Qualifier round 4
    6 = QF - v prov. champions, including Cork
    7 = Sf
    8 = Final

    Lossing to Cork is a real possibility so the qualifiers may be a dangerous route, and this team is not a patch on the team that took the same route in 2009
    Shur everyone was going up to the Quarter Final against Dublin in 2009 to pay respects to "a great dying team". We know how that game, and that year turned out.

    Yes the Qulifier route could be dangerous. It could also be easy. Its too early to tell.

    Whats to say that Jack wouldn't rest the big players for the qualifiers, and play the young lads who stood up in the league? Nobody knows.

    The long layoff between the Munster Final and Quarter Final could be more dangerous?

    Its a bit rediculous to say that age is catching up with this Kerry team. You say that looking at Marc and Tomás and Brosnan.

    What you aren't seeing is the likes of Crowley and Enright, Johnathan Lyne, BJK, James O'Donaghue etc. who are all getting more and more experience playing Intercounty football at the highest level.

    When the time comes for Tomás to go (next year more then likely) then in comes Crowley (maybe he will start this year even). Marc has anther few years, and by then Enright will have taken over the mantle.

    What will let Kerry down, isn't Age, but the lack of a viable Fullback or Centerback. Teams will hurt us straight through the middle. I'd like to see a lad like Lyne primed from an early age, to play at Centerback. He's young, strong and fast. He lacks physical size, but is still young. Also if Bohane stayed fit for more then 3 games at a time, he'd make a really good Fullback. He has the size, speed and footballing ability to play there, but he is constantly injured.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,764 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Crowley should be CHB imo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,361 ✭✭✭✭DDC1990


    I sorta see him as a direct replacement for Tomá.

    He raids forward a bit much ATM to be a CHB. He also lacks a bit of physical size (like Lyne I suppose).

    Still wont complain if he ends up there. He's one of the best defensive prospects in years IMO. Can play anywhere from 2-7.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,385 ✭✭✭✭D'Agger


    DDC1990 wrote: »
    I sorta see him as a direct replacement for Tomá.

    He raids forward a bit much ATM to be a CHB. He also lacks a bit of physical size (like Lyne I suppose).

    Still wont complain if he ends up there. He's one of the best defensive prospects in years IMO. Can play anywhere from 2-7.
    Thought he showed good discipline re: positioning when playing at full back for UCC so I'd imagine he could curb his attacking nature if given a shot in the centre.

    Still....maybe best to blood him in on the wing before trying him in the centre - a lá Mahony


  • Registered Users Posts: 583 ✭✭✭68Murph68


    PaulieC wrote: »
    Thought he showed good discipline re: positioning when playing at full back for UCC so I'd imagine he could curb his attacking nature if given a shot in the centre.

    Still....maybe best to blood him in on the wing before trying him in the centre - a lá Mahony

    I think he might end up at CHB at some stage but would prefer him at wing-back in the Tomas role.

    Don't want to see his attacking instincts curbed which you have to do at CHB.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,385 ✭✭✭✭D'Agger


    68Murph68 wrote: »
    I think he might end up at CHB at some stage but would prefer him at wing-back in the Tomas role.

    Don't want to see his attacking instincts curbed which you have to do at CHB.
    He's not strong enough for there atm anyway imo

    Were we to play Cork I'd imagine they'd put Pearse O'Neill on him and he might struggle with his physical style


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,764 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Who, Crowley? Hasn't looked lacking in physicality in the slightest any time I've seen him this year, and I've seen him live a few times at this stage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,361 ✭✭✭✭DDC1990


    keane2097 wrote: »
    Who, Crowley? Hasn't looked lacking in physicality in the slightest any time I've seen him this year, and I've seen him live a few times at this stage.
    He plays physical, but size wise he is lacking.

    Eoin Brosnan isn't a great CHB, but because of his size and footballing instincts he has made for a good stopgap.

    Now we need to step it up. Not many men the size of Eoin Brosnan hanging around the Kerry panel these days though.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,346 ✭✭✭✭homerjay2005


    genuine question, have the young lads stopped eating spuds around the country, all we seem to breed these days is small lads.

    when i was growing up, we were well able for senior football at 16 or 17, now the young lads on our panel are as light as f*ck.

    the lack of physical presence in our minor teams is getting worse and worse. we also, i think are suffering badly from population trends and i fear another famine is coming at senior level once the current golden generation leave us :(

    the underage set up in kerry is at an all time deplorable state if for the only reason being population problems.


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