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A Gaeltacht in Dublin?

24567…10

Comments

  • #32
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Unless you know its called Clonbur you can't get to it following roadsigns either, for somone not from Dublin they are as likely not to have heard of Clonbur before finding they have a reason to go there as 'An Fhairche'.
    I don't have any reason to go to An Fhairche. I regularly have reason to go to Clonbur. The reason I go to Clonbur is because I do business with people who live in Clonbur, who call the place they live Clonbur, and who write Clonbur as their address.

    The only people who don't seem to understand that Clonbur is called Clonbur are the people who have removed the name Clonbur from every signpost pointing towards Clonbur.
    Honnestly, it is really a nothing issue as far as I can see, it might cause a minor inconvienence for a while, after that it would make no difference as people would just get used to the name change. Certainly I can not see why it would cause someone to fight tooth and nail against something, that seams like a massive overreaction to me.
    My Danish girlfriend can't pronouce "An Fhairche", or "Béal an Muirthead", or "Gob an Choire". She can pronounce "Clonbur", "Belmullet" and "Achill Sound".

    This is equally true of thousands of tourists and other visitors. Allergan, who recently announced an expansion of 600 jobs in Westport, are unlikely to welcome a move that would change their business address to "Cathair na Mart" and require having to spell that out on every single phone call to a non-Irish speaker.

    The problem is with the pretence that places in Gaeltacht areas don't have English language names. I wouldn't say "Tá mé i mo chónaí i Westport" in an Irish conversation, and I don't see why I should say "I live in Cathair na Mart" in English. In practice, the English language name will be preserved in perpetuity - cf. Dingle - so removing it from signposts is stupid and irrational.


  • #33
    c_man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭c_man


    deise go deo wrote: »
    They will be, Current Gaeltacht areas that don't meet the criteria needed to have Gaeltacht Status will be given 2 years to meet the requirements, if they don't, they lose gaeltacht status.

    Glad to hear it. It's laughable when you know some of the areas that have that tag.


  • #34
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I don't have any reason to go to An Fhairche. I regularly have reason to go to Clonbur. The reason I go to Clonbur is because I do business with people who live in Clonbur, who call the place they live Clonbur, and who write Clonbur as their address.

    The only people who don't seem to understand that Clonbur is called Clonbur are the people who have removed the name Clonbur from every signpost pointing towards Clonbur. My Danish girlfriend can't pronouce "An Fhairche", or "Béal an Muirthead", or "Gob an Choire". She can pronounce "Clonbur", "Belmullet" and "Achill Sound".


    And how about if the people of Clonbur decided that they wanted Clonbur to be a Gaeltacht, under the proposed legislation it would be up to them after all.
    As for your Girlfriend, If she can speak two languages, I seriously doubt she will be stumped by Béal an Muirthead for long if she found herself needing to learn it because the locals decided to look for gaeltacht status.


  • #35
    Nuttzz
    Registered Users Posts: 3,771 ✭✭✭Nuttzz


    deise go deo wrote: »
    A Rose by any other name?

    I don't see why it would cause a problem if it was well flaged in advance.

    I cant see myself or the vast majority of people starting to call it anything other than Clondalkin regardless of its designation, just like I always called Dingle, Dingle and never An Dingles or what ever it was


  • #36
    eitlean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭eitlean


    I think it's great to hear! I don't live in Clondalkin but I live near and to think that the distant Gaeltacht 'd be just up the road is fantastic. Irish wouldn't be so alien and 'out of the ownership' of those in the big smoke.

    I joined up to Bernard Dunne's campaign too.

    I don't know why those that are anti-Irish are so afraid. Ireland will never become anything less than bilingual, in that English and Irish will co-exist.


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  • #37
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,856 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    kfdb wrote: »
    How will the local people of Clondalkin be consulted on this?

    We won't be. One of either of two things will happen

    - This idea will slowly die

    - It will be voted in by SDCC and imposed on the people.

    Is there a suggestion of a local plebiscite?

    At what cost? You'd think we would have greater priorities in the context of IMF bailout and massive budget deficits, than holding plebiscites on taking English off signs in Dublin..

    Life ain't always empty.



  • #38
    Focalbhach
    Registered Users Posts: 459 ✭✭Focalbhach


    deise go deo wrote: »
    And how about if the people of Clonbur decided that they wanted Clonbur to be a Gaeltacht, under the proposed legislation it would be up to them after all.
    As for your Girlfriend, If she can speak two languages, I seriously doubt she will be stumped by Béal an Muirthead for long if she found herself needing to learn it because the locals decided to look for gaeltacht status.

    I can't see the problem with retaining both English and Irish placenames on signs in any newly-designated gaeltachts. Insisting stoutly on Irish-only names achieves nothing much that I can see, and (judging by the way this thread is going) has the potential to detract hugely, and needlessly, from what could be a fairly positive development. Bear in mind that we're talking about currently English-speaking/bilingual areas. Compromise is the name of the game.


  • #39
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    deise go deo wrote: »
    And how about if the people of Clonbur decided that they wanted Clonbur to be a Gaeltacht, under the proposed legislation it would be up to them after all.
    I have no problem with anywhere being a Gaeltacht. I have a problem with people deluding themselves that places don't have English placenames, and trying to force that delusion on non-Irish speakers by removing the English placenames from signposts.
    As for your Girlfriend, If she can speak two languages, I seriously doubt she will be stumped by Béal an Muirthead for long if she found herself needing to learn it because the locals decided to look for gaeltacht status.
    Belmullet has Gaeltacht status, and I rarely hear it referred to as anything other than Belmullet by anybody living around here, including anyone I've ever spoken to who lives in Belmullet. The only indication that Belmullet isn't called Belmullet is the fact that someone has spent money on changing signposts.

    My girlfriend - who speaks perfectly fluent Danish and English, pretty fluent German and a little Spanish and French - doesn't feel the need to join in the collective delusion. Mind you, even her mother says "Copenhagen" instead of "Købnhavn" when she's talking English - the practical recognition that it makes sense to use the English name for a place when speaking English is quite refreshing.


  • #40
    kfdb
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭kfdb


    Focalbhach wrote: »
    I can't see the problem with retaining both English and Irish placenames on signs in any newly-designated gaeltachts. Insisting stoutly on Irish-only names achieves nothing much that I can see, and (judging by the way this thread is going) has the potential to detract hugely, and needlessly, from what could be a fairly positive development. Bear in mind that we're talking about currently English-speaking/bilingual areas. Compromise is the name of the game.

    Unfortunately, the rules are rules. If Dingle cannot be Dingle and Daingean Ui Cuis then why would newly designated areas be any different?


  • #41
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    kfdb wrote: »
    Unfortunately, the rules are rules. If Dingle cannot be Dingle and Daingean Ui Cuis then why would newly designated areas be any different?
    These rules are not fundamental laws of nature and can be changed, as many rules are as times and circumstances change.
    Having a Gealtacht in Dublin is a very different "circumstance", by it being a major urban area, and somewhere Irish has not been prominent for quite a while.

    Anyway, in a truly bilingual society signs should be in both languages, with prominence being decided by whether it's in a Geal/Galltacht.

    If this is the biggest issue surrounding the topic, then nice one, it wouldn't exactly be an insurmountable one.


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  • #42
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    It's a problem because, unless you know that it's called "An Fhairche" in Irish, you can't get to Clonbur by following road signs.

    I'm not sure what's achieved by pretending that it's not called Clonbur by English speakers.
    +1 Well remember the utter farce that was "An Daingain"? Shows the level of delusional guff from some quarters.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    Unless you know its called Clonbur you can't get to it following roadsigns either, for somone not from Dublin they are as likely not to have heard of Clonbur before finding they have a reason to go there as 'An Fhairche'.

    For someone from Dublin, they will proably know where it is, and if they don't they will, given it was well flagged in advance, have heard of the name change.


    Honnestly, it is really a nothing issue as far as I can see, it might cause a minor inconvienence for a while, after that it would make no difference as people would just get used to the name change. Certainly I can not see why it would cause someone to fight tooth and nail against something, that seams like a massive overreaction to me.
    This is the kind of thinking we're talking about. It's not An Fhairche it's Clonbur. That's what it's called. Any other name is a fancy and a fiction and an imposed one at that.
    kfdb wrote: »
    How will the local people of Clondalkin be consulted on this? Is there a suggestion of a local plebiscite?
    Well you may recall the Dingle "debate" where after some tooing and froing a plebiscite was duly called. Said plebiscite voted overwhelmingly in favour of keeping Dingle(IIRC there was only 10 odd nays out of 1000). And what happened? The minister O'Cuiv simply ignored them and any simple logic and instead threatened them with removing grants. Yep democracy at work, but dont let that get in the way if you're a cultural obsessive. Now this is a town/place world bloody famous and still these gombeens ignored good sense in pursuit of their imposed ideas of culture. They'd do similar in the urban areas given half the chance.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #43
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Wibbs wrote: »
    This is the kind of thinking we're talking about. It's not An Fhairche it's Clonbur. That's what it's called. Any other name is a fancy and a fiction and an imposed one at that.

    The same goes for 'planter' towns - Prosperous was always Prosperous from its foundation, so someone just stuck the nearest Irish townland name onto it to get Corrchoill - same for Bagenalstown (Muine Bheag)
    bluewolf wrote: »
    What benefits??

    Lots of easy grant money.


  • #44
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #45
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    deise go deo wrote: »
    They will be, Current Gaeltacht areas that don't meet the criteria needed to have Gaeltacht Status will be given 2 years to meet the requirements, if they don't, they lose gaeltacht status.

    There should be no Gaeltacht areas at all, the language should live or die on its merits without any state support. All state funding should be withdrawn from Udaras as well.


  • #46
    Cardinal Richelieu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Cardinal Richelieu


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    I used to rent in Drumcondra. It's partly flatland but also it has quite an elderly population

    A few locals would often come up and greet me in Irish leaving me struggling for the cúpla focail.
    Was told there are quite a few Irish speakers in the area but it's mainly the elderly locals

    One of the largest gaelscoils in the country is in Ballymun and lots of young people out there, it's another option

    Or you can find a townland up in the North county and link and twin it somehow with the place in Meath

    Remember hearing from people I know who lived near the Meath Gaeltacht when it was created talking about the huge gulf that opened between them and the newcomers from the West. Is this scheme expecting to buy land and provide free housing to people who can speak Irish and move out the existing residents in that area that can't speak Irish and whose ancestors haven't spoke Irish for 400 years?


  • #47
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #48
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,856 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I hope (but probably in vain) that the school wasn't involved in organising that protest.

    It would be pretty despicable for teachers to take advantage of kids to make a political protest. The real aim of that protest wasn't for the benefit of the kids involved but to ensure that there would not be a surplus of Irish teacher posts created.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • #49
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Wow. Totally hits the nail on the head.

    I feel obliged to play devil's advocate however and mention cultural identity; but I will temper that message insofar that I don't think that concepts concerning national identity (and the word 'concept' is key, as otherwise there wouldn't be any need for state interference) should take undue precedence. Imagine having regions where all beer was banned (or heavily taxed) as it wasn't Irish enough? Areas where football and rugby were not allowed play (some may indeed remember this!) ? Having the apparatus of the state geared towards the maintenance of a folly for the sake of a token nationalist gesture, as opposed to merely facilitating its existence if circumstances merit its survival? To a certain extent I can't help but wonder when it is, as a nation, we are going to grow up.


  • #50
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #51
    Kinski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭Kinski


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Hmm, cartoon hearts, incomprehensible text, and doe-eyed schoolgirls with their mouths taped shut...I can't tell if this is part of a campaign about the status of the Irish language in schools, or a promotional poster for a Japanese exploitation movie.


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  • #52
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    There should be no Gaeltacht areas at all, the language should live or die on its merits without any state support. All state funding should be withdrawn from Udaras as well.

    Wonderful lofty ideal - but that assumes that English isn't state supported. Arguably the state offers far far more jobs for English speakers.
    How dare they support a language like that - is there a need for anything more than a few Irish-English translators in most departments?

    Of course there's practical issues with my argument, but the Government comes from the position that Irish is equal to English - and to deal with the inequalities that exist there is a need to support the language.


    Anyway on behalf of myself as a Gaelgeoir - I have no problem with optional Irish for the leaving cert - as long as it is matched by optional English. I wouldn't want us to be forcing any language on anyone who didn't want it ;)


    Also @Kinski - I'm afraid to ask what movies you entertain yourself with :P


  • #53
    Kinski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭Kinski


    Cliste wrote: »
    Also @Kinski - I'm afraid to ask what movies you entertain yourself with :P

    Haha, most definitely not those ones!:p I'm off to watch my DVD of Bob Quinn's Poitín before anyone else assumes I have base tastes...


  • #54
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,856 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Cliste wrote: »
    Wonderful lofty ideal - but that assumes that English isn't state supported. Arguably the state offers far far more jobs for English speakers.

    Why do you think that is?

    The US doesn't have an official language. I think you'll find that they'll expect you to have good English skills to take a government job - because that's the language the vast majority of people speak...
    How dare they support a language like that

    It's not supporting a language, any more than you are supporting the English language by using it here. It's just a recognition of reality.
    Of course there's practical issues with my argument, but the Government comes from the position that Irish is equal to English - and to deal with the inequalities that exist there is a need to support the language.

    The concept that Irish is, or will ever be, equal in usage to English is fantasy.
    Can we finally drop the pretense after 90 years of expensive, failed, damaging, language policy?
    Anyway on behalf of myself as a Gaelgeoir - I have no problem with optional Irish for the leaving cert - as long as it is matched by optional English.

    No objection there... after all doing the Leaving isn't compulsory, so making any subject compulsory within the Leaving is stupid.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • #55
    MysticalRain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭MysticalRain


    Cliste wrote: »
    Anyway on behalf of myself as a Gaelgeoir - I have no problem with optional Irish for the leaving cert - as long as it is matched by optional English. I wouldn't want us to be forcing any language on anyone who didn't want it ;)
    :P
    English is already optional for the LC. Irish is the only subject that is legally required to be taught for the leaving cert.


  • #56
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,702 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    It could be argued that the cultural identity in this country today has not "emerged organically from people's natural interests and proclivities", but rather has been shaped by hundreds of years of British rule. This is not an anti-British, 'up the Ra' type, remark, merely pointing out that many aspects of Irish life today have had external influences and did not emerge organically. Indeed, the decline in the language was imposed by an authoritarian government, that in London. I personally have no issue with present day governments of this country redressing the balance, so it speak, by promoting aspects of Irish culture (ie. those emerged "organically from people's natural interests and proclivities" before a foreign power tried to eradicate them) such as the language. Again, this is not an Irish v British thing, but instead recognising that political circumstance has had a major influence on the success of the Irish language (or lack thereof) so the state washing it hands of it now is not "letting the language evolve (or die) organically".


  • #57
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    MysticalRain wrote: »
    English is already optional for the LC. Irish is the only subject that is legally required to be taught for the leaving cert.

    I don't remember being given an option - were you given one?
    ninja900 wrote: »
    Why do you think that is?

    The US doesn't have an official language. I think you'll find that they'll expect you to have good English skills to take a government job - because that's the language the vast majority of people speak...

    It's the first time I've seen America used as a benchmark to follow on this site :pac:
    Ironically the Hawaiian language has state protection, and is an official language of the state.
    ninja900 wrote: »
    It's not supporting a language, any more than you are supporting the English language by using it here. It's just a recognition of reality.

    The concept that Irish is, or will ever be, equal in usage to English is fantasy.
    Can we finally drop the pretense after 90 years of expensive, failed, damaging, language policy?

    Actually I just find the debate on the merits of the Irish language in Teach na nGealt a little one sided ;)

    I don't think that anyone expects it to be equal in usage - equal can mean lots of things. I would have done the Driver Theory test in Irish only it has a reputation for the translations not actually making sense.
    At the moment it is pretty inconceivable for someone to be able to survive in Ireland only through Irish.
    ninja900 wrote: »
    No objection there... after all doing the Leaving isn't compulsory, so making any subject compulsory within the Leaving is stupid.

    Amen - although I would still be in favor of a grounding in Maths and a language.


  • #58
    MysticalRain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭MysticalRain


    Cliste wrote: »
    I don't remember being given an option - were you given one?
    Dropping English was never a consideration for me at the time. I'm just saying that English is an optional subject, whereas Irish isn't. It might limit your choice of university courses, but if you really want to drop English, you can do so.


  • #59
    Kinski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭Kinski


    MysticalRain wrote: »
    Dropping English was never a consideration for me at the time. I'm just saying that English is an optional subject, whereas Irish isn't. It might limit your choice of university courses, but if you really want to drop English, you can do so.

    There is no requirement to actually sit Irish for the LC either, but students must study it until they leave school. However, the matriculation requirements for the former NUI universities, along with the policies of individual schools, mean that dropping any (or all) of the English/Maths/Irish trio is a non-starter for most students who want to proceed to third-level.


  • #60
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    I personally have no issue with present day governments of this country redressing the balance, so it speak, by promoting aspects of Irish culture (ie. those emerged "organically from people's natural interests and proclivities" before a foreign power tried to eradicate them) such as the language.
    Those might sound ok, in theory, but at what human and financial cost? Unknown amounts of money wasted on services in Irish, thousands of kids forced to learn Irish against their will.


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  • #61
    Irishheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15 ✭Irishheart


    deise go deo wrote: »
    The Government are planing on introducing a 'Gaeltacht Bill' Later this year to give statutry effect to the 20 year strategy for the Irish Language. Under the bill, Areas outside of the traditional Gaeltacht could recieve Gaeltacht status.

    Minister welcomes Government decision regarding Gaeltacht Bill




    Already people in some areas outside the Gaeltacht are thinking of benefits that gaining Gaeltacht status for their own area could bring.


    Clondalkin Could be Dublins First Official Gaeltacht
    .


    What would you make of it if someone proposed turning where you live into a Gaeltacht?
    I would love it.I speak Irish all the time to everyone in shops even if its how are you.
    I think one of the best ideas ever.The Irish school in Clondalkin is well known for their really good grades in all subjects through Irish and they get high grades in English also.


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