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The Corrib Tape

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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Tragedy wrote: »
    Only if someone who you told the joke to made a complaint. If an employer started bugging your office without your consent or knowledge(even accidentally) and then used that against you, you would be looking at quite a large settlement figure after litigation.

    Are you proposing we fire the guards in question but offer them six figure sums each?

    Only if? Believe me sir they would, in fact it would be certain they would make a complaint.

    The Garda Dept. didnt bug said Gardai they were taped by a citizen. Apples and Oranges.

    I find it hard to believe "it is banter" talk as I have never heard or said anything about rape in my lifetime. Maybe it is an insight into the type of people the Gardai employ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    jank wrote: »
    Only if? Believe me sir they would, in fact it would be certain they would make a complaint.

    The Garda Dept. didnt bug said Gardai they were taped by a citizen. Apples and Oranges.

    I find it hard to believe "it is banter" talk as I have never heard or said anything about rape in my lifetime. Maybe it is an insight into the type of people the Gardai employ?

    Or it shows what they have to deal with.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Vourney wrote: »
    That's because you know it's true. I personally know of many Irish people who view rape very casually and no big deal.
    It's very sad that your interaction with Irish people is limited to the addiction centre in a sex offenders wing, but I assure you this isn't how Irish people are.

    Perhaps try to get out more, enabling you to meet more Irish people? I can assure you that, as an Irish citizen who's been in contact with Irish people for over 30years, Irish people do not view rape as normal. Quite the contrary in fact - you'll find that the Irish society, as a whole, finds rape abhorable & views rape as a serious crime. The Irish have a number of legal offences associated with it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    jank wrote: »
    Only if? Believe me sir they would, in fact it would be certain they would make a complaint.
    No it wouldn't, as evidenced by how divided opinion is on this.
    Please don't state 'facts' that are opinions you came up with.
    The Garda Dept. didnt bug said Gardai they were taped by a citizen. Apples and Oranges.
    It still can't be used to discipline them unless they abused the citizen in person.
    I find it hard to believe "it is banter" talk as I have never heard or said anything about rape in my lifetime. Maybe it is an insight into the type of people the Gardai employ?
    Your post in an insight in to the type of people who jump on the bandwagon and scream hysterically about an out of context 'joke' from a Gardai commended for his work on rape cases.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Vourney


    Zulu wrote: »
    It's very sad that your interaction with Irish people is limited to the addiction centre in a sex offenders wing, but I assure you this isn't how Irish people are.

    Perhaps try to get out more, enabling you to meet more Irish people? I can assure you that, as an Irish citizen who's been in contact with Irish people for over 30years, Irish people do not view rape as normal. Quite the contrary in fact - you'll find that the Irish society, as a whole, finds rape abhorable & views rape as a serious crime. The Irish have a number of legal offences associated with it.

    So I'm not supposed to insult other posters, while my honesty is not only questioned but completely rejected. That's an insult to me. Because I am an honest person, and I find it insulting to have my honesty questioned, especially by sarcastic people who try to tear down and make me back down from the truth.

    You start with what appears to be a lie. I looked at your posts, it seems you just go around needling people, and being nasty at a low level. I seriously am in doubt of your ability to experience sadness, and I think that was sarcastic. I do not comprehend Irish sarcasism, I personally don't care for it, it comes across as amaturish and over-reaching one's abilities to me. Sarcastic people usually are sad, but have a hard time feeling genuine emotions. Either way, I don't understand the opening line. If you are trying to say you think I am sad, I will ask you to refrain from such comments, as I will state my feelings for myself, whilst you have the right to state your own feelings.

    Your interests are booze and hookers. Oh nice. Yet you think you live in a wonderful society that abhors rape. Why don't you try finding out how many "hookers" as you call them are victims of sexual assault. That called hypocracy.

    I don't need to get out more, I've met plenty of people in Ireland, from all walks of life. I've spent a lot of time there and have a lot of family there. My experiences are what they are, and anyone who asks me to justify myself, and proove that I know enough Irish people to make this statement, is wrong. I don't have to justify anything. I have to right to state what I've experienced whether you can handle it or not.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Vourney wrote: »
    So I'm not supposed to insult other posters, while my honesty is not only questioned but completely rejected. That's an insult to me. Because I am an honest person, and I find it insulting to have my honesty questioned, especially by sarcastic people who try to tear down and make me back down from the truth.

    You start with what appears to be a lie. I looked at your posts, it seems you just go around needling people, and being nasty at a low level. I seriously am in doubt of your ability to experience sadness, and I think that was sarcastic. I do not comprehend Irish sarcasism, I personally don't care for it, it comes across as amaturish and over-reaching one's abilities to me. Sarcastic people usually are sad, but have a hard time feeling genuine emotions. Either way, I don't understand the opening line. If you are trying to say you think I am sad, I will ask you to refrain from such comments, as I will state my feelings for myself, whilst you have the right to state your own feelings.

    Your interests are booze and hookers. Oh nice. Yet you think you live in a wonderful society that abhors rape. Why don't you try finding out how many "hookers" as you call them are victims of sexual assault. That called hypocracy.

    I don't need to get out more, I've met plenty of people in Ireland, from all walks of life. I've spent a lot of time there and have a lot of family there. My experiences are what they are, and anyone who asks me to justify myself, and proove that I know enough Irish people to make this statement, is wrong. I don't have to justify anything. I have to right to state what I've experienced whether you can handle it or not.

    I read this in the voice of Woody Allen.
    It really improves it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Vourney


    mikom wrote: »
    I read this in the voice of Woody Allen.
    It really improves it.

    How old are you? Are you a child?
    Why did you hide your avatar? Was that supposed to be bluto from popeye?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,380 ✭✭✭pah


    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/no-one-was-ever-in-any-danger-of-being-raped-you-cant-get-raped-by-a-joke-2614952.html
    FEWER than one in five of the respondents in our poll think the gardai in the "rape tape" incident should be sacked and prosecuted. The vast majority favour the mildest punishment that was offered to them as an option, which is that the men should be reprimanded and then retrained.

    It provides more evidence that the Irish public are well able to distinguish between a genuine scandal and one which has been whipped up and kept going by the media.

    More evidence, too -- if any were needed -- that the shrill over-reactions of the National Women's Council are becoming more and more counter-productive by the day. People don't like the toxic tone which its grandstanding director Susan McKay has introduced to debates on gender in this country.

    Two words: Lorena Bobbitt. She cut off her husband's little man with a kitchen knife and threw it out of the window of a moving car into a field.

    As you do. Doctors managed to reattach the runaway organ, but not before giving rise to a million jokes. Like the one about how John Wayne Bobbitt was dating a bulimic because they made a perfect match. She couldn't keep anything down and he couldn't keep anything up.

    Does telling that joke imply an inability to empathise with victims of sadistic attacks or eating disorders? Of course not. What happens is you hear about something disturbing, think "ouch" or "yuk" or "eek", then neutralise the discomfort by cracking a joke. That's how jokes work. Nine-tenths of humour is about the darker side of human behaviour. I recently heard a very funny routine from a German comic about the man in Munich who advertised online for a victim that he could kill, dismember and cook. Does that comic believe murdering, cutting up and eating his fellow Germans is intrinsically funny? I'm guessing he doesn't. Nor do I.

    He told the jokes and I laughed at them, because they were funny. There's no rhyme or reason to it. I can't justify that response to someone who would never let go long enough to allow themselves to laugh at inappropriate things. You either get it or you don't.

    Black humour is a particularly common response amongst people who work in jobs where they have to deal with traumatic situations on a daily basis.

    Police officers tell an awful lot of dodgy jokes, but since they often spend their shifts cleaning up the after-effects of appalling violence, my inclination is to give them a fairly generous latitude as to what they should and should not say behind closed doors. Whatever gets them through the night.

    The guards in the now-infamous 'rape tape' scandal had come from yet another fractious protest by the Shell To Sea campaign. For years down in Mayo, the police have been faced with a phalanx of sinister, unpleasant, aggressive people. The adrenalin rushes. So, back in the car, alone, they started riffing with one another to break the tension.

    It's not what you'd call comedy gold, but that doesn't matter, because it wasn't meant for release on DVD. The only reason we heard it was because a video was left accidentally running in the back seat.

    Here's the key issue. Does hearing something less than admirable from the lips of an otherwise exemplary individual invalidate what it is about them which commanded respect in the first place? My position would be that it doesn't. A Nobel Peace Prize winner could repeat the joke about the two Palestinian fathers looking at pictures of their suicide-bombing sons and saying wistfully "ah, they blow up so fast these days", and still be a paragon of compassion and sensitivity. It doesn't mean he has no feeling for the victims of terrorism.

    Professional hysterics such as the National Women's Council, an organisation which gets shriller and sillier by the day, leapt upon the tape as evidence that the guards are insensitive to rape victims, but it's only proof of something sinister if you've already made up your mind that it is. If that's what you want to think anyway.

    Which is why I don't believe a word of it when the various bandwagon-jumpers insist they were shocked/disturbed/horrified /add your own cliche. If anything, they were gleefully delighted at getting something juicy to use against people they regard as their ideological foes.

    Fair play to them for that. It was a hell of a coup. But it's not going to change what I think of the guards. I'll judge police officers, those in this instance included, on how they deal with real victims of serious crime, rather than imaginary victims who never existed because they were only the punchline of a joke.

    Isn't that the central fact here, after all? Nothing actually happened to anyone. No one got raped. No one was ever in any danger of being raped. You can't get raped by a joke. Nothing untoward was even said to those women.

    Susan McKay, director of the National Women's Council, predictably tried to suggest that there was some connection between the tape and the plight of actual rape victims in Mayo. "How are they going to feel about going to the guards when those guards are maybe laughing behind their hands at them or regarding them as being somehow ridiculous or pathetic or dirty?" she demanded to know. To which one can only reply: Yes, it would be reprehensible -- if that was what had happened. But it didn't.

    There were no rape victims involved in this incident whatsoever. None. Much less any who were laughed at for being "dirty" or "pathetic". The only rape victims were fictional ones invented to score a point, to ratchet up the outrage, to maximise hostility towards police officers who could be doing a fantastic job for the people of Mayo, for all that any of the denouncers knew or cared, but who had dared to utter a tasteless joke in private.

    These periodic witch hunts really do have to stop. It's getting out of hand. First the whispers start on Twitter, then the phone-in shows get involved. Before you know it, the mobs are surging through the streets holding aloft flaming torches and calling for heads to roll. It's so childish and needy. I'm upset, give me a candy bar. Cue attention-seeking foot-stamping. It makes for an atmosphere of timidity and self-censorship, not openness and honesty.

    All the more important in that climate for both sides to be heard. As it was, RTE's Miriam O'Callaghan gave McKay a farcically easy time on Prime Time last Tuesday whilst she went off one of her periodic paranoid monologues. O'Callaghan didn't ask McKay to justify a single statement. Not so much as: "Come on, Susan, have you never said something among friends that you'd rather wasn't repeated in public because it wouldn't make you look so saintly?"

    Surely we all have if we're honest? When McKay said the men should be suspended pending an inquiry, Miriam still didn't bat an eyelid.

    Suspended? For telling a joke? Seriously? If that's the kind of country they want to live in, count me out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Vourney wrote: »
    How old are you? Are you a child?

    A guard wouldn't ask you that.



    Vourney wrote: »
    Why did you hide your avatar? Was that supposed to be bluto from popeye?

    Blink again.
    It's there, always has been.

    Yes bluto AKA brutus is the avatar, as supplied by the good people of boards.ie


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Excuse me, I never said I was sad! You'll note that I didn't say "it saddens me.."
    Also, my interests aren't beers & hookers, they're booze, blackjack, and hookers - there's a big difference. Without the blackjack, how are you supposed to afford all the booze & hookers?

    Didn't think of that, did you smarty pants?


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,931 Mod ✭✭✭✭Turner


    I think everybody has said enough on this thread to be honest, it really is heading down the swanny now.

    The main points covered.

    * The woman arrested was not in the car when the comments were made, it was 3 Gardai in their patrol car having a private conversation and her video camera was in a bag on the back seat.

    * Womens groups got up in arms over the tape including the Rape Crisis Center

    * A Poll of after hours revealed that 54.6% of voters believed Gardai are working in a stressful environment and privately joking to release the stress. and that the whole affair was a storm in a teacup.

    * A poll in the Irish Independent revealed FEWER than one in five of the respondents in the poll think the gardai in the "rape tape" incident should be sacked and prosecuted. The vast majority favour the mildest punishment that was offered to them as an option, which is that the men should be reprimanded and then retrained.

    *Black humor is used by every emergency service in the world. There have been studies compiled on it by academics in the top educational institutions including Cambridge and Oxford. It has been found that it a necessary strategy for ES people to cope when they come into contact with such seriously disturbing images and scenes that our ES personnel have to deal with daily. People who have never come across such scenes and have no need to use black humor will never understand it. The Gardai dont come across such gruesome scenes daily but they do very often while on duty.



    The After hours thread has already been locked and I think the last post on that thread by Seamus sums it up really.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by seamus
    Thankfully they can't be punished because they haven't done anything wrong. This was a private conversation between individuals. An employer cannot punish an employee for remarks made privately unless a party to that conversation makes a complaint.

    In this case the Shell to sea women are not a party to the conversation because it was illegitimately recorded. Thankfully this fact makes it inadmissable as evidence, the Garda Ombudsman knows this, and they'll stick the individuals involved on paperwork for a couple of weeks until the morons find a new flavour of the week and then they can quietly send these Gardai out to do their job again.

    The Gardai in question should sue the protestors involved for breach of privacy and harrassment. These women, upon learning that the conversation had been recorded, had a legal obligation to contact either the data protection commissioner or the Gardai to inform them of this breach of privacy and allow them to oversee the deletion of the recording.
    By publishing the conversation, they have involved themselves in a gross invasions of the officers' privacy and deserve to be punished.

    The officers are entitled to say things in private, and they're definitely entitled to joke in private, whether they're in uniform or not. The day that we start censoring or punishing people over their legal and harmless private conversations is the day we should just resurrect Hitler and let him get on with it.

    The only people here who have caused any outrage or injury are these shell to sea protestors and they should be outed as the malicious, tax wasting spongers that they are and destroyed in the media.

    The Gardai have nothing to apologise for. They didn't say anything offensive to anyone.

    Thanks,

    Chief---


This discussion has been closed.
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