Double standards at MTV awards

EyeSight · 18-04-2014 5:14pm

I think that was prearranged and scripted
I bet he had a new shirt on afterwards

C14N · 19-04-2014 6:46am

sailornaruto39 wrote: »

The objectification is not so much the problem but rather the non consetual act of ripping his clothes off. I'm also speaking assuming it isn't a set up, even though it probably is.

It's bringing out some ugly colors is all. Ppl aren't putting too much though, you just aren't putting enough into it, you think if the tables were turned there wouldn't be more controversy?

I think the point is that it wasn't non-consensual. He could have easily stopped her but instead he went along with it and seemed fairly pleased that it happened. As a man who pretty much makes his living this way, he can handle it pretty well. I'd say if he took offence and snapped at it then there would be more discussion. You do have to bear in mind that men approach this situation differently to women. I think it's fair to say most of us would not mind that blonde wan ripping our own shirts off on stage either.

Wompa1 wrote: »

The whole thing was a pretty interesting experience from my perspective. I couldn't see this happening at a female musicians concert. I know Beyonce was grabbed at a show and it made the news...these women were trying to paw over John. I don't know any men who go to a Shakira concert or any other female musicians concert because of their looks and to shout at them on stage. It's an interesting world we live in!

You're right, men don't really do that kind of stuff, at least not most of us but I think that's partly down to what men find attractive vs what women find attractive. Those women in the crowd think John Legend is so hot not just because he's a good looking guy but because he's a great singer and he can write some sexy songs (I'm sure most in attendance were familiar with at least one or two chunes). With female singers like Beyonce or Shakira though, I think that while men will agree that they are very attractive, the fact that they're good singers and dancers doesn't really elevate them to be particularly special compared to the myriad of other attractive women we can find with a quick internet search.

We also tend to have a sort of "rock star" image of male musicians in that they will sleep around while on tour, picking up regular, hot-girl groupies at every stop along the way. We really don't have this as much for women though, no guy thinks Shakira or whoever is going to invite him back stage to get a little action, even if he is male-model levels of good-looking.

Wompa1 · 19-04-2014 4:03pm

C14N wrote: »

You're right, men don't really do that kind of stuff, at least not most of us but I think that's partly down to what men find attractive vs what women find attractive. Those women in the crowd think John Legend is so hot not just because he's a good looking guy but because he's a great singer and he can write some sexy songs (I'm sure most in attendance were familiar with at least one or two chunes).

It can't just be because he writes good songs. I went to a similar musicians concert, a guy called Ben Folds. The women at that gig were completely different, no screaming and trying to paw at him. He writes love songs too....but he looks like a troll. I wouldn't even mind if they were admiring and attracted by Johns talent, but me thinks without his looks there would be no screaming and pawing. And because of that, I would think more a long the lines of somebody like Shakira come out on stage singing and doing her schtick while guys are shouting at her and trying to grab her. It would be seen as pretty sleazy. Male equivalent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uai7M4RpoLU

Dravokivich · 19-04-2014 6:56pm

Honestly dont think the blazin saddles clip is all that relevant as its taking the piss out of cowboys who would have had little contact with women and their over eagerness to get stuck in when one shows up. Particularly when the character they are fawning over is meant to be a terrible burlesque entertainer.

C14N · 19-04-2014 9:24pm

Wompa1 wrote: »

It can't just be because he writes good songs. I went to a similar musicians concert, a guy called Ben Folds. The women at that gig were completely different, no screaming and trying to paw at him. He writes love songs too....but he looks like a troll. I wouldn't even mind if they were admiring and attracted by Johns talent, but me thinks without his looks there would be no screaming and pawing. And because of that, I would think more a long the lines of somebody like Shakira come out on stage singing and doing her schtick while guys are shouting at her and trying to grab her. It would be seen as pretty sleazy. Male equivalent:

Well yeah if he had a face like a bag of spuds then you're right, but as it is he has musical talent and good looks. Women aren't going to turn up in thousands just to see a good looking lad without any special talents any more than they'll turn up to see John Legend if he isn't also handsome and stylish.

I'd say a big part of the difference is the kind of music too, Ben Folds attracts more of an indie/hipster following, he'll get smaller crowds but they'll be stronger fans who listen to music a lot. John Legend is a bit more of a pop star, there'll be plenty of women who'll have a song or two of his on the iPod even though they're not massive fans of his work. It's also worth pointing out that while I wouldn't call Ben Folds a troll, he is over 10 years older and assuming these girls were fairly young, he looks like someone who could be their dad.

As men, we already have outlets for stuff like that. We've got strip clubs and a bottomless pit of internet porn. To most guys, if the good looking girl dancing around that poll can also write deep and meaningful or just catchy songs and sing them well, it's not going to boost their attractiveness much. As a result, most guys will just take that option or stay at home fapping to girls out of their league because paying €60 to coo over Shakira seems like a bad deal.

I do think women in general get more emotionally attached to whatever entertainer they like too, not just for male ones. I know girls who completely worship Beyonce or Pink. I don't know if you've heard of Jenna Marbles but she's got a famous Youtube channel and mostly puts out humorous videos from a female perspective, which means most of her audience are girls. She's also quite a looker by conventional standards. I was at UCD when she was invited as a guest speaker and went to see her and girls went absolutely mental about it. I'd say the crowd was about 90% girls, many of whom were really freaking out about being in the same room as her. It was by far the biggest crowd I've seen at any campus event and it was hard to get in unless you were early. I had a friend who was interested in going but saw the crowd and decided "nobody is that hot".

Point is, men don't tend to get emotional about that stuff like women do. At the same time though there aren't as many women who get emotional about stuff like sports so it goes both ways.

Wompa1 · 19-04-2014 9:47pm

C14N wrote: »

Well yeah if he had a face like a bag of spuds then you're right, but as it is he has musical talent and good looks. Women aren't going to turn up in thousands just to see a good looking lad without any special talents any more than they'll turn up to see John Legend if he isn't also handsome and stylish.

I agree regarding the emotion. It's a good point. Though you could argue we get as emotive when watching or participating in competition. Regarding the above. The nightclubs in Galway would routinely have Reality Show nobodies in as guests. The women would come a flockin'! No talent, in fact some of them were known from the show's for how stupid they were.

iptba · 19-04-2014 10:11pm

I've read information on studies that found that females are influenced by who other females find attractive. One could see then that a concert scenario might heighten their attraction for some male if there were other females who are clearly attracted also to him, while the same effect wouldn't occur (or to a lesser extent) with males.

C14N · 19-04-2014 10:13pm

Wompa1 wrote: »

I agree regarding the emotion. It's a good point. Though you could argue we get as emotive when watching or participating in competition. Regarding the above. The nightclubs in Galway would routinely have Reality Show nobodies in as guests. The women would come a flockin'! No talent, in fact some of them were known from the show's for how stupid they were.

That's true, for whatever reason women do seem more interested in stuff like that. I mean if you compare something like women's magazines to men's magazines you see this too. Typically you'd imagine women's magazines to focus more on people, whether it's what they're wearing or gossip surrounding them (in the UK especially they seem to end up with loads of celebrities who are really only famous because their lives are documented this way) whereas men's magazines focus more on stuff. Particularly stuff that you, the man reading it, can take part in like cars, computers, video games, sports, personal fitness etc.

I know I'm speaking in broad strokes here but broad strokes get the fence painted faster.

sailornaruto39 · 19-04-2014 10:25pm

Standman wrote: »

I didn't see him give any resistance at all actually, nor did he look the slightest bit surprised or embarrassed.

Yes depending on the context, ripping someones shirt counts.

Would some people be reacting differently to to this were the genders were reversed? Possibly. I would be just as indifferent.

I don't disagree that double standards exist between men and women. I don't think this is a good example of a double standard however.

These are self obsessed celebrities at a "raunchy" awards show we are talking about here, they love this kind of attention.

If you didn't see him resist a little then you aren't looking close enough.

Like I said the incident isn't so much the problem, but the justifications of it happening.

If the roles were reversed the reaction Would be different

sailornaruto39 · 19-04-2014 10:30pm

C14N wrote: »

I think the point is that it wasn't non-consensual. He could have easily stopped her but instead he went along with it and seemed fairly pleased that it happened. As a man who pretty much makes his living this way, he can handle it pretty well. I'd say if he took offence and snapped at it then there would be more discussion. You do have to bear in mind that men approach this situation differently to women. I think it's fair to say most of us would not mind that blonde wan ripping our own shirts off on stage either.

But it wasn't consensual, and just because he gave in doesn't make it less non consensual. It's like if someone forces them self on you after implying "no" but then you give in and go with it.

He was just being a good sport about it, because if he complained he'd be called a pussy. And what does it matter that most men would like it? That's just generalizing. Just because some, most even like it doesn't make it a valid reason to say just do it.

sailornaruto39 · 19-04-2014 10:36pm

C14N wrote: »

I think the point is that it wasn't non-consensual. He could have easily stopped her but instead he went along with it and seemed fairly pleased that it happened. As a man who pretty much makes his living this way, he can handle it pretty well. I'd say if he took offence and snapped at it then there would be more discussion. You do have to bear in mind that men approach this situation differently to women. I think it's fair to say most of us would not mind that blonde wan ripping our own shirts off on stage either.

But it wasn't consensual, and just because he gave in doesn't make it less non consensual. It's like if someone forces them self on you after implying "no" but then you give in and go with it.

He was just being a good sport about it, because if he complained he'd be called a pussy or have his sexuality questioned as men often do when they resists sexual advances from pretty women. And what does it matter that most men would like it? That's just generalizing. Just because some, most even like it doesn't make it a valid reason to say just do it.

C14N · 20-04-2014 3:27am

sailornaruto39 wrote: »

But it wasn't consensual, and just because he gave in doesn't make it less non consensual. It's like if someone forces them self on you after implying "no" but then you give in and go with it.

He was just being a good sport about it, because if he complained he'd be called a pussy or have his sexuality questioned as men often do when they resists sexual advances from pretty women. And what does it matter that most men would like it? That's just generalizing. Just because some, most even like it doesn't make it a valid reason to say just do it.

He didn't "give in" because he made no motion to get her to stop. There was no "no", there was no "come on don't do that", he was just happy and went along with it. All she did was open the front of his shirt, he did most of the work and actually took it off. If you're really comparing this to sexual assault, it would be a bizarre sort of situation where the victim starts taking it further than the aggressor.

Maybe some people would have called him a pussy, I doubt Zac Effron cares because he's relentlessly mocked as a pretty boy anyway. I'm not sure what instances you're referring to of "often" having their sexuality questioned when resisting a pretty woman.

It matters that most men like it because most men watching it think "lucky Zac Efron, I wouldn't mind that happening to me". Hence they aren't going to complain about it. Even if the roles were switched, it would cause a lot more controversy because a lot of women would think "how awful for her, I wouldn't want that happening to me", although even then there would probably be a large group of girls taking the opposite stance and saying they'd like Zac Efron to rip their shirts off. Perhaps if she was older and/or physically larger than him there might be more controversy about it.

sailornaruto39 · 20-04-2014 4:45am

C14N wrote: »

He didn't "give in" because he made no motion to get her to stop. There was no "no", there was no "come on don't do that", he was just happy and went along with it. All she did was open the front of his shirt, he did most of the work and actually took it off. If you're really comparing this to sexual assault, it would be a bizarre sort of situation where the victim starts taking it further than the aggressor.

Maybe some people would have called him a pussy, I doubt Zac Effron cares because he's relentlessly mocked as a pretty boy anyway. I'm not sure what instances you're referring to of "often" having their sexuality questioned when resisting a pretty woman.

It matters that most men like it because most men watching it think "lucky Zac Efron, I wouldn't mind that happening to me". Hence they aren't going to complain about it. Even if the roles were switched, it would cause a lot more controversy because a lot of women would think "how awful for her, I wouldn't want that happening to me", although even then there would probably be a large group of girls taking the opposite stance and saying they'd like Zac Efron to rip their shirts off. Perhaps if she was older and/or physically larger than him there might be more controversy about it.

Argumentum ad populum much? If he wasn't uncomfortable with it with all the males who would've been fine matter?

But looking back I guess I did over look into the whole thing. I though about it, if Zac efron tapped my but (though I'm a guy) I wouldn't mind at all nor do I think i'd make such a big deal if the roles were reversed and the female was ok with it getting her shirt ripped off.

My whole problem is the whole media hypocrisy.

As for having for a man getting his sexuality questioned

"A clear factor in cases brought by men is the difficulty society might have believing they would be offended by a come-on. No real man rebuffs sexual attention, goes the thinking, so how can he even be sexually harassed? “It’s sort of a societal taboo. A man’s going to complain because a woman’s hitting on him? What’s wrong with him?” says Alexis McKenna"

C14N wrote: »

You're right, men don't really do that kind of stuff, at least not most of us but I think that's partly down to what men find attractive vs what women find attractive. Those women in the crowd think John Legend is so hot not just because he's a good looking guy but because he's a great singer and he can write some sexy songs (I'm sure most in attendance were familiar with at least one or two chunes).

I barely disagree. Women act savage around any sort of stimuli like that (IE Magic mike, Twilight, Chip N Dales). I don't think music turns them on that much.

As Womp said, most half of the women left when The other band started playing so clearly music doesn't matter that much.

iptba · 05-05-2014 2:24am

A musician talks about how, now and again, a woman in the audience will put her hand on his penis/whatever-word-you-want-to-use when he's on stage (he says this is never welcome)
http://instagram.com/p/nfUvEpRbov/#

(I came across it via this link: http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/24j8r6/male_music_artist_groped_by_female_at_show/)

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller · 06-05-2014 12:47am

iptba wrote: »

A musician talks about how, now and again, a woman in the audience will put her hand on his penis/whatever-word-you-want-to-use when he's on stage (he says this is never welcome)

Just read a comment on a thread about the Garth Brooks concerts at Croke Park and a woman said she was going to try and grab his arse if he crowd surfed. Think a guy saying similar would be lambasted if he said he would grab Beyonce's arse if she crowd surfed at the O2.

Anyway, with regards to the Zac Efron shirt ripping off shenanigans, he claims it was NOT planned at all.

Very surprised that nobody mentioned the similar Janet Jackson / Justin Timberlake incident, as the storm over that was quite shocking (I think Oprah even had a special on it) yet this incident doesn't seem to have received anything close to the same reaction and yet that was planned and this one wasn't. Not that I think there was much wrong with what Rita Ora did, just the double standard about such things are, as always, quite hard to take.

sailornaruto39 · 06-05-2014 4:04am

How was their nothing wrong with what she did?

amkin25 · 06-05-2014 4:26am

There is a double standard and in this case i think,could be wrong though but i got the impression he didn't want her to at first and then sort of done the whole ripping it off himself to maybe cover his initial hesitation,and seem like he was down with it all when maybe he wasn't at first
But i could be totally wrong and it could have been all planned for all i know.

sailornaruto39 · 06-05-2014 7:39am

amkin25 wrote: »

There is a double standard and in this case i think,could be wrong though but i got the impression he didn't want her to at first and then sort of done the whole ripping it off himself to maybe cover his initial hesitation,and seem like he was down with it all when maybe he wasn't at first
But i could be totally wrong and it could have been all planned for all i know.

I agree that if it wasn't staged that's probably the case, but I don't think eventual consent counts for very much when there isn't initial consent

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller · 06-05-2014 10:50am

sailornaruto39 wrote: »

How was their nothing wrong with what she did?

I never said there was nothing wrong with it.. I said I don't think there was much wrong with it.

That's just a personally view.

My main (and perhaps only) issue with the whole thing is the double standard aspect of things, in that if some male celeb pulled off an actress's blouse at an awards show (someone like Kelly Brook for example) and left her standing there in just her bra, I'd say he would be up on charges before the week was out, with most sections of the media demanding he never work again.

sailornaruto39 · 06-05-2014 3:38pm

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller wrote: »

I never said there was nothing wrong with it.. I said I don't think there was much wrong with it.

That's just a personally view.

My main (and perhaps only) issue with the whole thing is the double standard aspect of things, in that if some male celeb pulled off an actress's blouse at an awards show (someone like Kelly Brook for example) and left her standing there in just her bra, I'd say he would be up on charges before the week was out, with most sections of the media demanding he never work again.

Isn't that kinda the same thing? WHy don't you think there was nothing wrong? WOuld you feel the same with the scneario you just made with reversed roles?

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller · 06-05-2014 4:07pm

sailornaruto39 wrote: »

Isn't that kinda the same thing? WHy don't you think there was nothing wrong? WOuld you feel the same with the scneario you just made with reversed roles?

You're using the word nothing again, despite the fact that I have just pointed out I didn't use it.

Okay, I will make my point again. Let's use Kate Upton as an example:

kate-upton-cameron-diaz-dance-party-for-other-woman.jpg

kate-upton-cameron-diaz-dance-party-for-other-woman.jpg

I'm using her as an example because, just like Zac, she was just in a movie where her chest was almost a character in and of itself, like Zac's was in Bad Neighbours.

Now, let's say it was Kate presenting / receiving an award and a male cast member snuck up and pulled open her blouse to reveal her bra and then she stood there and posed in Zac'like fashion.. you're asking me would I have an issue with it?

Nope, I wouldn't. As I wouldn't see much wrong with it.

Hope that answers your question.

sailornaruto39 · 28-05-2014 7:56am

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller wrote: »

You're using the word nothing again, despite the fact that I have just pointed out I didn't use it.

Okay, I will make my point again. Let's use Kate Upton as an example:

I'm using her as an example because, just like Zac, she was just in a movie where her chest was almost a character in and of itself, like Zac's was in Bad Neighbours.

Now, let's say it was Kate presenting / receiving an award and a male cast member snuck up and pulled open her blouse to reveal her bra and then she stood there and posed in Zac'like fashion.. you're asking me would I have an issue with it?

Nope, I wouldn't. As I wouldn't see much wrong with it.

Hope that answers your question.

It does, at least your consistent

iptba · 20-07-2014 12:31am

Woman in audience touched singer Tim McGraw's private parts (he wasn't happy):
http://ksfm.cbslocal.com/2014/07/17/tim-mcgraw-slaps-female-fan-in-the-face-video/

py2006 · 20-07-2014 10:28am

iptba wrote: »

Woman in audience touched singer Tim McGraw's private parts (he wasn't happy):
http://ksfm.cbslocal.com/2014/07/17/tim-mcgraw-slaps-female-fan-in-the-face-video/

I think she actually only pulled at his trouser leg.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 20-07-2014 6:40pm

The kind of things like the Zac Efron incident really do make me a bit uncomfortable, and it is a double standard. Go back a couple decades and women were being told things like "to lighten up" or "get over themselves" or that they "just needed a good shag" if they objected to behaviour like getting their arse slapped or groped by strangers; that is now generally understood as unacceptable behaviour. But objectifying men and touching their bodies without their consent and using their looks or line of work as a justification seems to be fine, it doesn't make sense.

I saw Efron on Graham Norton and the poor guy could hardly get two words out without women in the audience screaming over him, he's a fairly decent actor and a funny guy but nobody gives a crap what he has to say, they just want him to stand there and look pretty. At one point there was mention of him taking his shirt off and the crowd went mental, to my mind he looked pretty pissed off and uncomfortable and changed the subject very quickly.

It's kind of weird that women in general don't have more empathy with how a man in this situation might feel, we're used to hearing the argument from (some, SOME, not all, not most, let's just cut that off at the pass) men that they'd only love getting "compliments" roared at them in the street or having easy access to sex or wouldn't mind getting groped and we should know well that the reality of it is often far less rosy.

Double standards at MTV awards

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