DART capacity reconfiguration

ted1 · 11-09-2013 8:34pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Well that really is your fault for losing it - hardly anyone else's?

Given that it applies to bus, LUAS and DART you might get more use from it.

But if you think that needlessly paying over the odds is ok that's up to you, but I don't see your logic.

And where does this 20c bank charge come from? Sounds again like you're not shopping around!!

20c is what AIB charge per transaction, BOI charge 28C per transaction. Other banks have charges to. Where can I get cheaper without having to keep a couple of k in a low interest current account

Losty Dublin · 11-09-2013 9:11pm

ted1 wrote: »

20c is what AIB charge per transaction, BOI charge 28C per transaction. Other banks have charges to. Where can I get cheaper without having to keep a couple of k in a low interest current account

Top up your LEAP with cash in hand; zero transaction fees.

And before you say "But I have to withdraw cash", so do all of us

ted1 · 11-09-2013 9:13pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Top up your LEAP with cash in hand; zero transaction fees.

And before you say "But I have to withdraw cash", so do all of us

If I have cash why not just buy a ticket?

LXFlyer · 11-09-2013 9:26pm

ted1 wrote: »

If I have cash why not just buy a ticket?

Because it costs MORE!!!

LXFlyer · 11-09-2013 9:29pm

ted1 wrote: »

Yes, discourage use of public transport. What a great idea

No - the whole point is to get people to move away from paying with cash and to get a LEAP card.

Cash fares will continue to increase at a higher % than LEAP fares in an effort to make people switch.

EB_2013 · 11-09-2013 9:35pm

What are the current peak times for the Dart?

I pitty the poor person in charge of IE's account tonight, I see lots of complaints regarding the reduced capacity in.

PRAF · 11-09-2013 10:12pm

These recent changes to the dart service are an absolute disgrace in my opinion. Ended up getting 2 carriage Darts on Mon and Tuesday. Crammed to capacity. Left work a little earlier today and ended up on another crammed train, this time a 4 carriage dart.

Families with young kids and / or buggies, pregnant ladies, the elderly, the disabled, etc - they'll find it hard to get onto one of these trains. It's an accident waiting to happen. There aren't enough handrails either so it is quite unsafe.

It is an utter decimation of customer service in order to save a paltry few mill, less than 1 percent of Irish rails total operating costs.

Would be interesting to know how many of CIEs board of directors take peak time darts. Ditto for their exec mgmt team and the minister for transport. I suspect they all drive to work.

davidlacey · 11-09-2013 10:29pm

ted1 wrote: »

Yes, discourage use of public transport. What a great idea

How is that discouraging use of public transport, i was recently in london at the bank holiday weekend and paid £8 which allowed me to travel on all public transport services for a day upto 4 zones which gave me everythung i needed and also have a 5 year old son who travelled free as under 12s dont pay for transport in london. A maximum rate per day is needed when using leap on all transport.

As for transaction fees on leap, i recommend pay by cash, even spare change can be used at a minimum of 5€ or change banks, im personally with permanent tsb and pay none of these fees, anyone who does not shop around in banking these days is dumb.

As for the two carriage darts, i welcome it in one hand as cost saving is needed BUT i think IEs constant mismanagement of the fleet is ridiculous, i have been on the evening rosslare services over the past few weeks and there is no space to breath, a four car set is totally inaccurate. The two car darts are good but i have been on 4 in the past 2 days and every time the drivers have totally ignored the signage at stations and stop the dart at the very top of the station giving unaware people a very long walk to get on. All very inconvienent when a bus actually stops where it is supposed to and more chance of getting a seat. It is going to in my opinion going to result in further loss in revenue due to customers choosing the more comfortable option(dublin bus)due to more ppl standing in the dart, IE mean well and it is a proactive move which is strange for them but i fear there will be a public backlash...

PRAF · 11-09-2013 10:41pm

davidlacey wrote: »

As for the two carriage darts, i welcome it in one hand as cost saving is needed BUT i think IEs constant mismanagement of the fleet is ridiculous, i have been on the evening rosslare services over the past few weeks and there is no space to breath, a four car set is totally inaccurate. The two car darts are good but i have been on 4 in the past 2 days and every time the drivers have totally ignored the signage at stations and stop the dart at the very top of the station giving unaware people a very long walk to get on. All very inconvienent when a bus actually stops where it is supposed to and more chance of getting a seat. It is going to in my opinion going to result in further loss in revenue due to customers choosing the more comfortable option(dublin bus)due to more ppl standing in the dart, IE mean well and it is a proactive move which is strange for them but i fear there will be a public backlash...

Do you use the Dart out of interest? I've used it regularly for 15 years. I would usually defend the service but this is indefensible IMO.

I fear IR is now locked into a vicious circle of fare hikes, service cuts, loss of passengers, leading to more cuts, etc.

Whatever about the impact on individual customers, it looks terrible and must be a real eye opener for tourists from countries who are used to good transport services

If users switch back to the car, it'll also be bad for the environment and bad for the economy due to increased gridlock.

Moreover it is a total waste of the investment made in rolling stock, extended platforms, etc. To think IR were proposing a 2b dart inter connector just a short time ago, to cater for increased demand presumably, and now were in the era of 2 or 4 carriage darts!

All around, this is just a ridiculous move

Cookie_Monster · 11-09-2013 10:46pm

00112984 wrote: »

Punitive cash fares, à la London, need to be brought in to encourage Leap use.

not before Leap is actually made usable. Currently it's not, especially for occasional users or tourists. A minimum cost of €10 to buy one is ridiculous for a very light PT user.

davidlacey · 11-09-2013 10:46pm

PRAF wrote: »

Do you use the Dart out of interest? I've used it regularly for 15 years. I would usually defend the service but this is indefensible IMO.

I fear IR is now locked into a vicious circle of fare hikes, service cuts, loss of passengers, leading to more cuts, etc.

Whatever about the impact on individual customers, it looks terrible and must be a real eye opener for tourists from countries who are used to good transport services

If users switch back to the car, it'll also be bad for the environment and bad for the economy due to increased gridlock.

Moreover it is a total waste of the investment made in rolling stock, extended platforms, etc. To think IR were proposing a 2b dart inter connector just a short time ago, to cater for increased demand presumably, and now were in the era of 2 or 4 carriage darts!

All around, this is just a ridiculous move

I use the dart on a daily basis, unless they tackle the pass holders issue, offer more attractive leap card daily rates a more efficient service, customer numbers will continue to drop and revenues will continue to drop, how else do you suggest they bridge the gap, more unmanned stations, less frequency , keep them the same length and take the hit and beg the government to subvent it?

PRAF · 11-09-2013 10:58pm

davidlacey wrote: »

I use the dart on a daily basis, unless they tackle the pass holders issue, offer more attractive leap card daily rates a more efficient service, customer numbers will continue to drop and revenues will continue to drop, how else do you suggest they bridge the gap, more unmanned stations, less frequency , keep them the same length and take the hit and beg the government to subvent it?

IR had op ex of about 380m last year, there are easier ways of cutting 3m than decimating services for customers.

The Dart carries about 45 per cent of its customers. I would hazard a guess that it is their most profitable service (or at least the one that loses least money). Why force Dart users to suffer 3rd world service at 1st world prices? Makes zero sense to me.

ted1 · 12-09-2013 7:28am

davidlacey wrote: »

How is that discouraging use of public transport, i was recently in london at the bank holiday weekend and paid £8 which allowed me to travel on all public transport services for a day upto 4 zones which gave me everythung i needed and also have a 5 year old son who travelled free as under 12s dont pay for transport in london. A maximum rate per day is needed when using leap on all transport.

As for transaction fees on leap, i recommend pay by cash, even spare change can be used at a minimum of 5€ or change banks, im personally with permanent tsb and pay none of these fees, anyone who does not shop around in banking these days is dumb.

As for the two carriage darts, i welcome it in one hand as cost saving is needed BUT i think IEs constant mismanagement of the fleet is ridiculous, i have been on the evening rosslare services over the past few weeks and there is no space to breath, a four car set is totally inaccurate. The two car darts are good but i have been on 4 in the past 2 days and every time the drivers have totally ignored the signage at stations and stop the dart at the very top of the station giving unaware people a very long walk to get on. All very inconvienent when a bus actually stops where it is supposed to and more chance of getting a seat. It is going to in my opinion going to result in further loss in revenue due to customers choosing the more comfortable option(dublin bus)due to more ppl standing in the dart, IE mean well and it is a proactive move which is strange for them but i fear there will be a public backlash...

PTSB have fees.
https://m.permanenttsb.ie/media/permanenttsb/pdfdocuments/permanent-tsb-personal-and-business-banking-charges.pdf
You may get away without fees if you keep a balance, but you are losing more on interest.

Jacking up the prices for paying cash discourages people using public transport.

I'm currently doing a part time masters in DIT and its cheaper for me to drive into town and pay for parking in the evening than get public transport. That's wrong.

LXFlyer · 12-09-2013 10:04am

ted1 wrote: »

PTSB have fees.
https://m.permanenttsb.ie/media/permanenttsb/pdfdocuments/permanent-tsb-personal-and-business-banking-charges.pdf
You may get away without fees if you keep a balance, but you are losing more on interest.

Jacking up the prices for paying cash discourages people using public transport.

I'm currently doing a part time masters in DIT and its cheaper for me to drive into town and pay for parking in the evening than get public transport. That's wrong.

Increasing cash fares does not discourage people from using public transport - it encourages them to get a LEAP card and avail of the cheaper fares that it offers.

I find it exceptionally difficult to believe that it costs you less than €5.50, which is the LEAP card return fare on the DART from Killiney to Pearse, to drive and park into Dublin city centre.

Again, I have to say, that every one of your posts has re-iterated to me how people need to start rethinking how they use public transport.

Out of curiosity, were you even aware that the DART has a fixed 15-minute frequency before I told you? From what you're saying I suspect your initial statement was made on the basis of the old disjointed timetable.

BuffyBot · 12-09-2013 10:07am

Bank fee discussion is going off on a tangent folks: keep it on topic.

LXFlyer · 12-09-2013 10:07am

PRAF wrote: »

These recent changes to the dart service are an absolute disgrace in my opinion. Ended up getting 2 carriage Darts on Mon and Tuesday. Crammed to capacity. Left work a little earlier today and ended up on another crammed train, this time a 4 carriage dart.

Families with young kids and / or buggies, pregnant ladies, the elderly, the disabled, etc - they'll find it hard to get onto one of these trains. It's an accident waiting to happen. There aren't enough handrails either so it is quite unsafe.

It is an utter decimation of customer service in order to save a paltry few mill, less than 1 percent of Irish rails total operating costs.

Would be interesting to know how many of CIEs board of directors take peak time darts. Ditto for their exec mgmt team and the minister for transport. I suspect they all drive to work.

To put this into context - can you please specify the times and directions that you're travelling?

LXFlyer · 12-09-2013 10:09am

davidlacey wrote: »

How is that discouraging use of public transport, i was recently in london at the bank holiday weekend and paid £8 which allowed me to travel on all public transport services for a day upto 4 zones which gave me everythung i needed and also have a 5 year old son who travelled free as under 12s dont pay for transport in london. A maximum rate per day is needed when using leap on all transport.

As for transaction fees on leap, i recommend pay by cash, even spare change can be used at a minimum of 5€ or change banks, im personally with permanent tsb and pay none of these fees, anyone who does not shop around in banking these days is dumb.

As for the two carriage darts, i welcome it in one hand as cost saving is needed BUT i think IEs constant mismanagement of the fleet is ridiculous, i have been on the evening rosslare services over the past few weeks and there is no space to breath, a four car set is totally inaccurate. The two car darts are good but i have been on 4 in the past 2 days and every time the drivers have totally ignored the signage at stations and stop the dart at the very top of the station giving unaware people a very long walk to get on. All very inconvienent when a bus actually stops where it is supposed to and more chance of getting a seat. It is going to in my opinion going to result in further loss in revenue due to customers choosing the more comfortable option(dublin bus)due to more ppl standing in the dart, IE mean well and it is a proactive move which is strange for them but i fear there will be a public backlash...

The Rosslare trains cannot be any longer than 4 coaches due to platform length restrictions at Rathdrum.

highdef · 12-09-2013 11:07am

lxflyer wrote: »

The Rosslare trains cannot be any longer than 4 coaches due to platform length restrictions at Rathdrum.

When they were loco hauled, I could swear that they used to have 6 or 7 coaches. how did that work at Rathdrum and other similar stations?

ted1 · 12-09-2013 11:13am

lxflyer wrote: »

Increasing cash fares does not discourage people from using public transport - it encourages them to get a LEAP card and avail of the cheaper fares that it offers.

I find it exceptionally difficult to believe that it costs you less than €5.50, which is the LEAP card return fare on the DART from Killiney to Pearse, to drive and park into Dublin city centre.

Again, I have to say, that every one of your posts has re-iterated to me how people need to start rethinking how they use public transport.

Out of curiosity, were you even aware that the DART has a fixed 15-minute frequency before I told you? From what you're saying I suspect your initial statement was made on the basis of the old disjointed timetable.

No idea it ran every 15 minutes as i'm often waiting longer periods.
I will try it next time and let you know how i get on.

After 5pm with a student card it costs €2 for the night to park in the College of surgeons Car park.
Diesel to and from town doesn't cost €3.50 ( I don't pay for diesel Work do. but regardless my wivies car wouldn't cost more than €3.50)

flyingsnail · 12-09-2013 11:17am

highdef wrote: »

When they were loco hauled, I could swear that they used to have 6 or 7 coaches. how did that work at Rathdrum and other similar stations?

Older trains had grandfather rights to operate trains longer than the platform where passengers at the rear of the train had to move up the inside of the train to get out at the platform. The newer trains, most of which are railcars, do not have this and the entire train is required to be on the platform.

Cookie_Monster · 12-09-2013 11:24am

highdef wrote: »

When they were loco hauled, I could swear that they used to have 6 or 7 coaches. how did that work at Rathdrum and other similar stations?

manual doors so you just didn't open them. new trains don't have selective door opening because IE are incompetent and can't spec a train properly.

bikeman1 · 12-09-2013 11:26am

The train I got home yesterday was the same service as on Tuesday.

On Tuesday it was an 8 car. Yesterday a 4 car. It was disgraceful how crowded it was. Definitely left passengers who were trying to get on, behind at Connolly. This is not part of there savings.

I couldn't help but look at the frustrated faces on people, saying this is not what I paid for. That carry on is going to drive people away from the DART and onto other modes. The downward spiral will continue.

I was in favour of IE cutting capacity at OFF PEAK times, but they have taken the lazy option of cutting PEAK trains as well it seems.

LXFlyer · 12-09-2013 11:40am

bikeman1 wrote: »

The train I got home yesterday was the same service as on Tuesday.

On Tuesday it was an 8 car. Yesterday a 4 car. It was disgraceful how crowded it was. Definitely left passengers who were trying to get on, behind at Connolly. This is not part of there savings.

I couldn't help but look at the frustrated faces on people, saying this is not what I paid for. That carry on is going to drive people away from the DART and onto other modes. The downward spiral will continue.

I was in favour of IE cutting capacity at OFF PEAK times, but they have taken the lazy option of cutting PEAK trains as well it seems.

Again - can you specify the time and direction - it's very difficult to exactly understand when the issues are arising.

bikeman1 · 12-09-2013 12:00pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Again - can you specify the time and direction - it's very difficult to exactly understand when the issues are arising.[/quot

16:30 Greystones - Malahide DART, approx 1724 off Connolly

LXFlyer · 12-09-2013 12:49pm

bikeman1 wrote: »

lxflyer wrote: »

Again - can you specify the time and direction - it's very difficult to exactly understand when the issues are arising.[/quot

16:30 Greystones - Malahide DART, approx 1724 off Connolly

To be honest that sounds far more like there was an issue with one of the sets - that shouldn't be a 4pce.

PRAF · 12-09-2013 1:00pm

lxflyer wrote: »

To put this into context - can you please specify the times and directions that you're travelling?

No problem. Here you go:

-On Mon I think it was the 6.59 from Grand Canal Dock to Clongriffin. 2 carriage DART packed to the gills

- On Tuesday it was the same train but I got on at Connolly around 7.07ish. 2 carriage DART packed to the gills

- To avoid the debacle, I decided to start early and finish early yesterday. I got the 5.23 from Connolly and it was packed to the gills as it was only a 4 carriage Dart.

I understand the reasoning behind these changes and wouldn't be too upset if it was managed correctly. For me, they need a wider definition of peak which should be 6.30 to 9.30 in the mornings and 4.00 to 7.30 in the evenings. Peak times should have 6 or 8 carriages minimum. 4 carriages at peak time is a disgrace, is dangerous, and is against the principles outlined in their customer charter.

Also they shoudl taper in the reduced capacity DARTs after peak times. For example, from 7.30 to 8.30 you go to 4 carriages, from 8.30 to finish you go to 2 carriages (if they feel they absolutely have to).

This business of sending 2 carriage DARTs to GCD at 6.59 is ludicrous. Remember this is where Google, Accenture and a bunch of other tech companies reside. Workers here often need to work late in order to have conf calls with their US based head offices. All of a sudden, these guys are struggling to get on their train home in the evening. Also, as I said before, if you are old, incapacitated, injured, pregnant, etc. you have even less chance of catching that train home.

davidlacey · 12-09-2013 1:05pm

PRAF wrote: »

No problem. Here you go:

-On Mon I think it was the 6.59 from Grand Canal Dock to Clongriffin. 2 carriage DART packed to the gills

- On Tuesday it was the same train but I got on at Connolly around 7.07ish. 2 carriage DART packed to the gills

- To avoid the debacle, I decided to start early and finish early yesterday. I got the 5.23 from Connolly and it was packed to the gills as it was only a 4 carriage Dart.

I understand the reasoning behind these changes and wouldn't be too upset if it was managed correctly. For me, they need a wider definition of peak which should be 6.30 to 9.30 in the mornings and 4.00 to 7.30 in the evenings. Peak times should have 6 or 8 carriages minimum. 4 carriages at peak time is a disgrace, is dangerous, and is against the principles outlined in their customer charter.

Also they shoudl taper in the reduced capacity DARTs after peak times. For example, from 7.30 to 8.30 you go to 4 carriages, from 8.30 to finish you go to 2 carriages (if they feel they absolutely have to).

This business of sending 2 carriage DARTs to GCD at 6.59 is ludicrous. Remember this is where Google, Accenture and a bunch of other tech companies reside. Workers here often need to work late in order to have conf calls with their US based head offices. All of a sudden, these guys are struggling to get on their train home in the evening. Also, as I said before, if you are old, incapacitated, injured, pregnant, etc. you have even less chance of catching that train home.

We are talking about IE here, they are told to reduce costs and they go to the extremes to do it with no regard to businesses/customers, sure the french even came over to see how IE "reduced costs" and "improved efficiency" so they must be doing something right.....

LXFlyer · 12-09-2013 1:06pm

PRAF wrote: »

No problem. Here you go:

-On Mon I think it was the 6.59 from Grand Canal Dock to Clongriffin. 2 carriage DART packed to the gills

- On Tuesday it was the same train but I got on at Connolly around 7.07ish. 2 carriage DART packed to the gills

- To avoid the debacle, I decided to start early and finish early yesterday. I got the 5.23 from Connolly and it was packed to the gills as it was only a 4 carriage Dart.

I understand the reasoning behind these changes and wouldn't be too upset if it was managed correctly. For me, they need a wider definition of peak which should be 6.30 to 9.30 in the mornings and 4.00 to 7.30 in the evenings. Peak times should have 6 or 8 carriages minimum. 4 carriages at peak time is a disgrace, is dangerous, and is against the principles outlined in their customer charter.

Also they shoudl taper in the reduced capacity DARTs after peak times. For example, from 7.30 to 8.30 you go to 4 carriages, from 8.30 to finish you go to 2 carriages (if they feel they absolutely have to).

This business of sending 2 carriage DARTs to GCD at 6.59 is ludicrous. Remember this is where Google, Accenture and a bunch of other tech companies reside. Workers here often need to work late in order to have conf calls with their US based head offices. All of a sudden, these guys are struggling to get on their train home in the evening. Also, as I said before, if you are old, incapacitated, injured, pregnant, etc. you have even less chance of catching that train home.

I'm assuming you mean 18:59?

24 hour clock is sort of important where transport is concerned.

I'd tend to agree - that is too early. Every train up to 09:30 in the city centre should be minimum 6-car and 8-car, and the same should apply from 16:30 to 19:00.

PRAF · 12-09-2013 1:20pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm assuming you mean 18:59?

24 hour clock is sort of important where transport is concerned.

I'd tend to agree - that is too early. Every train up to 09:30 in the city centre should be minimum 6-car and 8-car, and the same should apply from 16:30 to 19:00.

Yes, I did mean 18.59.

I have to say that I am bamboozled by Irish Rails approach here. Is this a deliberate attempt to cause maximum distress to the public in the hope that we'll turn on the govt for reducing their PSO fees? In a way, I kind of hope that it is

The alternative (i.e. that they are totally incompetent, out of touch with reality, devoid of any other ideas to cut less than 1% of their total operating expenses) is just too depressing to even contemplate.

If this continues I'll switch to the bus and / or the car.

loyatemu · 12-09-2013 1:20pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I'd tend to agree - that is too early. Every train up to 09:30 in the city centre should be minimum 6-car and 8-car, and the same should apply from 16:30 to 19:00.

various reports in this thread suggest IE are now routinely running 4-car sets in the evening peak.

worth noting that if you are going to Greystones, Howth or Malahide and you can't get on the Dart because its too full, you could have a long wait for the next one (which you also might not be able to board).

DART capacity reconfiguration

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