British military presence in Ireland 1906

ledgebag1 · 12-05-2014 8:12pm #1

Hi guys as the title says I am looking for some info on this?

Such as where they present?
To what extent?
Where were they present?

Any links info or help on this would be great

Thanks

johnny_doyle · 12-05-2014 11:03pm

no details of units or number of men but the attached map might be of some use re your query

ledgebag1 · 13-05-2014 9:02am

Yeah that helps, I suppose I am looking for confirmation really of a British Military presence in the South of Ireland.

For instance in 1906 were the British army visible on the streets of Dublin, its not for research purposes more of a verification.

I hope this makes some sense ?

thanks again

Santa Cruz · 13-05-2014 9:38am

I would be of the opinion that there was a significant military presence but in an administration way rather than threatening type way. It mightn't be popular to say but there was a fair acceptance of them and many British soldiers were native Irish. There were several military barracks around the country from which recruitment to the various Irish regiments were organised. The British Empire had a lot of countries where they supplied military to. Maybe the Census of 1901 would be of use in establishing numbers

ledgebag1 · 13-05-2014 9:40am

yeah that could be a route, maybe its my search methods but I am hitting a wall on line to articles or links on the subject

thanks Santa Cruz

Maphisto · 13-05-2014 9:48am

Hi OP

Came across this book on a search "British Democracy and Irish Nationism 1876-1906"

Catchy title I know but extracts at least are on Google here:

http://books.google.ie/books?id=iOgbSv9boCkC&pg=PA167&lpg=PA167&dq=british+army+in+ireland+1906&source=bl&ots=gdl7enEezm&sig=mfPqvFXm5jgXjZiIyUFPqyBuJbw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xdJxU4n9COry7AbcpoEY&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=british%20army%20in%20ireland%201906&f=false

Might give you a lead in to something.

ledgebag1 · 13-05-2014 10:00am

cheers Maphisto, much appreciated

Owryan · 13-05-2014 10:17am

Have nothing for 1906 but I have a list of british army units and their stations in Ireland from 1904 .

Might give you an idea of what your after

ledgebag1 · 13-05-2014 11:25am

Yeah great, I suppose I am really trying to get an idea of their presence in Dublin at this time. Were they on the streets, visible, an ever presence?

Thanks for the help so far guys

Owryan · 13-05-2014 11:58am

Unit/Location
3rd Dragoon Guards Ballincollig
6th Dragoons Dublin
11th, 19th Hussars Curragh

Berkshire Regiment (49th-66th) 1st Bn Dublin
Connaught Rangers (88th-94th) 1st Bn Mullingar
Gordon Highlanders (75th-92nd) 1st Bn Cork
King's Own Scottish Borderers (25th) 1st Bn Belfast
Lancashire Fusiliers (20th) 2nd Bn Fermoy
Lancashire Fusiliers (20th) 4th Bn Tipperary
Loyal North Lancashire Regiment (47th-81st) 1st Bn Kinsale
Manchester Regiment (63rd-96th) 4th Bn Cork
Middlesex Regiment (57th-77th) 4th Bn Dublin
Northumberland Fusiliers (5th) 4th Bn Limerick
Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders (79th) 1st Bn Dublin
Royal Fusiliers (7th) 4th Bn Dublin
Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers (28th-108th) 1st Bn Enniskillen
Royal Irish Rifles (83rd-86th) 2nd Bn Dublin
Royal Warwickshire Regiment (6th) 4th Bn Curragh
South Staffordshire Regiment (38th-80th) 1st Bn Curragh
West Yorkshire Regiment (14th) 2nd Bn Belfast
Worcestershire Regiment (29th-26th) 1st Bn Templemore

Q Battery RHA, 38th, 61st Battery Newbridge
22nd Battery Limerick
27th, 36th, 60th Battery Athlone
48th Battery Waterford
71st Battery Kilkenny
125th Battery Cork
126th, 127th Battery Fermoy
131st 132nd, 138th, 139th Battery Kildare
134th, 135th, 136th Battery Dundalk
140th, 141st, 142nd Battery Cahir

As you can see the British Army had a large presence in Ireland, i ve left out the various service, support, admin and garrison units scattered around the country.

Not sure if they played a policing role in the country but they would 've been a constant visual presence coming and going from the various barracks as well as on manouvers. Pageantry would've also being a big visual presence.

ledgebag1 · 13-05-2014 12:04pm

Owryan is that from 1904 onwards? Until when?

Owryan · 13-05-2014 12:07pm

ledgebag1 wrote: »

Owryan is that from 1904 onwards? Until when?

That list is dated "November 1904". i just have lists for a given year. Records aren't complete and i can't find anything for 1906.

ledgebag1 · 13-05-2014 12:48pm

Thanks a million for your help with it your very good

Fratton Fred · 13-05-2014 3:51pm

ledgebag1 wrote: »

Yeah great, I suppose I am really trying to get an idea of their presence in Dublin at this time. Were they on the streets, visible, an ever presence?

Thanks for the help so far guys

Are you trying to establish if Ireland in 1906 was effectively like Belfast in 1989 with armed soldiers patrolling the streets?

ledgebag1 · 13-05-2014 4:51pm

No just to what extent they were present, were they visible on the streets, what activities they carried out if they were in dublin at this time

Owryan · 13-05-2014 5:08pm

Contrary to common belief in the early 20th century the British Army wasn't regarded by the majority of the population as an occupying force. In general they would've had much the same presence as our current DF. Most barracks/military posts were enclosed or in remote area's so there would've been limited interaction.

Also the units stationed in Ireland rotated through various stations so they might only be "in country" for a year or two. I haven't come across too many non biased source's which depicted the British army as acting like an occupation army prior to 1912 onwards.

As for what they did on a day to day basis, well it would probably have depended on the type of unit, its post and whether or not they were due for deployment to for example, Africa or India. For cavalry and artillery units caring for their horses was probably the biggest daily chore while infantry regiments might've focused on musketry and drill.

Fratton Fred · 13-05-2014 5:17pm

I will link to the article later.

In 1906, the British army stood at 392,000 or 980 per 100,000 population. This was a reduction from the 1901 peak of 540,000.

Today, the British army is at 180,000 or 298 per 100,000.

The current Irish army is around 8000 or 177 per 100,000.

There were effectively four times the number so it would have been more common to see mitary people knocking around. Ireland had a higher number of barracks, partly because it was a popular recruiting area, plus the history of rebellion. You would also see men in uniform off duty in pubs etc. so again, more visible.

Hopefully that helps put it in to context.

ledgebag1 · 13-05-2014 6:48pm

Yeah that is great appreciate it, if you could stick that link up I would be most grateful, and thanks again

riffmongous · 13-05-2014 8:01pm

Hm, maybe you could get some information on their off duty street presence and activities by doing a bit of research on the Monto.. :pac:

Fratton Fred · 13-05-2014 8:22pm

ledgebag1 wrote: »

Yeah that is great appreciate it, if you could stick that link up I would be most grateful, and thanks again

It's a Guardian article, but informative.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/sep/01/military-service-personnel-total

The interpretation is my own.

Frank Lee Midere · 13-05-2014 8:28pm

Owryan wrote: »

Contrary to common belief in the early 20th century the British Army wasn't regarded by the majority of the population as an occupying force. In general they would've had much the same presence as our current DF. Most barracks/military posts were enclosed or in remote area's so there would've been limited interaction.

Also the units stationed in Ireland rotated through various stations so they might only be "in country" for a year or two. I haven't come across too many non biased source's which depicted the British army as acting like an occupation army prior to 1912 onwards.

As for what they did on a day to day basis, well it would probably have depended on the type of unit, its post and whether or not they were due for deployment to for example, Africa or India. For cavalry and artillery units caring for their horses was probably the biggest daily chore while infantry regiments might've focused on musketry and drill.

Contrary to revisionist belief they commonly were seen as an occupying force. As we can see most of the British army in Ireland was not Irish. The British army in England is mostly English. In India it was mostly Indian ( officer class being English/ Anglo Indian though).

As far as I know no regiments of the Irish army are descendants of the British.

Fratton Fred · 13-05-2014 8:56pm

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Contrary to revisionist belief they commonly were seen as an occupying force. As we can see most of the British army in Ireland was not Irish. The British army in England is mostly English. In India it was mostly Indian ( officer class being English/ Anglo Indian though).

As far as I know no regiments of the Irish army are descendants of the British.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that because a regiment is called the royal Berkshire regiment, all its recruits were from Berkshire.

People joined whatever regiment was in town at the time, a quick scan through wwi death records will show Irishmen who died fighting fir regiments from all over these islands. My own great grandfather fought in the second Boer war and in the Somme for the enniskillen fusiliers, but didn't step foot in Ireland until 13 years after he joined up. He spent much of his time in India.

riffmongous · 13-05-2014 9:37pm

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

As far as I know no regiments of the Irish army are descendants of the British.

I think a lot of the soldiers from the disbanded British-Irish regiments joined the Free State forces though, according to Wiki anyway, although I wonder if that distinguishes between the peacetime regiment strength and those who would have been recruited for WW1. Also I wonder how many would have remained in the army after the post-war downsizing, interesting all the same. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Fusiliers#Disbandment

Santa Cruz · 13-05-2014 9:38pm

riffmongous wrote: »

Hm, maybe you could get some information on their off duty street presence and activities by doing a bit of research on the Monto.. :pac:

Spot on. I heard that the Monto women went on day trips to the Curragh to "entertain" the troops

Owryan · 13-05-2014 10:06pm

Pre WWI roughly 10% of the British Army was "Irish" http://www.dublin-fusiliers.com/statistics.html. Between 190-200,000 Irish enlisted during the war, hardly a sign that the army was seen as an oppressive force.

At one stage, late 18th century it was estimated that upwards of a third of the British Army was recruited from Ireland http://belfastmediagroup.com/fascinating-insight-into-the-irish-who-joined-british-army/

ledgebag1 · 13-05-2014 10:13pm

This is great guys and galls much appreciated, yeah until monto mentioned I had not thought of it

jos28 · 14-05-2014 10:32pm

Just a couple of books that might be worth a look

Bartlett, T.,Jeffery, K. 1996. A Military History of Ireland. Cambridge

Dooley, T. 1995. Irishman or English Soldier, The Times and World of a Southern Irish Catholic Man. Liverpool.

tac foley · 15-05-2014 9:52am

The thing to remember here is that the many Irish regiments previously mentioned were ALSO part of the British Armed Forces of the day.

How offended do you think that Irish people were when they saw a parade of the Munster Fusiliers or the 5th Dragoon Guards in their town?

Without the Irish component - drawn from young men with a sense of adventure, or to 'get away', the ARMY [notice that I did not say the British Army - there was, in fact, no other] was a ticket to freedom.

It's no use saying that any Irishman was used as mere cannon fodder to pander to British military ambitions - no matter whether you cam from Tooting, Arbroath, Armagh or Bantry, it is still the British Army that you were in, and not any kind of foreign power - at THAT time. Every soldier takes the same risks on the battlefield.

tac

ledgebag1 · 15-05-2014 10:25am

jos28 wrote: »

Just a couple of books that might be worth a look

Bartlett, T.,Jeffery, K. 1996. A Military History of Ireland. Cambridge

Dooley, T. 1995. Irishman or English Soldier, The Times and World of a Southern Irish Catholic Man. Liverpool.

thanks for that, much appreciated

riffmongous · 15-05-2014 11:37am

tac foley wrote: »

It's no use saying that any Irishman was used as mere cannon fodder to pander to British military ambitions - no matter whether you cam from Tooting, Arbroath, Armagh or Bantry, it is still the British Army that you were in, and not any kind of foreign power - at THAT time. Every soldier takes the same risks on the battlefield.

tac

Perhaps on the battlefield, but off the battlefield they seemed to have been treated differently

Thirdly, Irish troops in the British Army appear to have been treated with particular harshness. They constituted just two per cent of the membership of the force, yet they were the recipients of eight per cent (271) of all death sentences imposed by its courts-martial.[27] Estimates on the number of executed ranging from 25 to 30 of the Irish war dead were victims of court martial executions.[28][29][30] Opposition to the war in Ireland, may have therefore been influenced by perceived discrimination by British High Command against Irish soldiers. On average one British soldier out of every 3,000 of their troops that died in the war did so due to being court martialed and executed by firing squad, compared to the much higher, one out of every 600 of the Irish troops that died.[28][31] Out of the total that were executed, 26 have since been retroactively pardoned.[32][3

wiki link

riffmongous · 15-05-2014 11:42am

Owryan wrote: »

Pre WWI roughly 10% of the British Army was "Irish" http://www.dublin-fusiliers.com/statistics.html. Between 190-200,000 Irish enlisted during the war, hardly a sign that the army was seen as an oppressive force.

At one stage, late 18th century it was estimated that upwards of a third of the British Army was recruited from Ireland http://belfastmediagroup.com/fascinating-insight-into-the-irish-who-joined-british-army/

But the recruitment rate was much lower in Ireland than in Britain, with the exception of Ulster. And a large proportion of those who originally joined up in the south came directly from Redmond's volunteers.

British military presence in Ireland 1906

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