Dublin Marathon 2011 Novices Mentored Thread

Concerned2 · 25-04-2011 8:35pm

BrokenMan wrote: »

Got to say I agree with mr.notso.slow that is a pretty intense program for someone with injury worries. I wouldn't want to try it myself thats for sure and I'm pretty injury resilient. Getting through it injury free will set yuo up brilliantly for the race but it could also cause a flare up of the ITB.

Would you consider switching to a slightly less intense schedule which may well get you to the start line injury free. You have the base speed for a 3:30 there's no doubt about that. But in order to run it you have to get to the start line.

Guys I'm not following the 3:40 plan from that website (I think you have to pay to get hold of that plan) , I'm going to follow the plan http://www.runningplanet.com/training/marathon-training-beginning-competitor.html .I've followed the equivalent 5k plan which I liked & I'm currently following the equivalent half marathon plan. I am using this plan instead of the HH one because it has a greater proportion of fast running & I find my ITB problem flares up worse from easy running than from the hard stuff

I must admit I've not looked into the P&D plans , I assumed they were closer to the plan I'm following than the H.H plans. Anyway I don't think there is a plan out there that is guaranteed to get me to the line injury free , I've had ITB trouble before when I was jogging less than 12 miles a week ! I'll be using the foam roller , icing & stretching like mad to get to the start line on October this year though.

Mr Slow · 25-04-2011 9:44pm

Concerned2 wrote: »

Guys I'm not following the 3:40 plan from that website (I think you have to pay to get hold of that plan) , I'm going to follow the plan http://www.runningplanet.com/training/marathon-training-beginning-competitor.html .I've followed the equivalent 5k plan which I liked & I'm currently following the equivalent half marathon plan. I am using this plan instead of the HH one because it has a greater proportion of fast running & I find my ITB problem flares up worse from easy running than from the hard stuff I must admit I've not looked into the P&D plans , I assumed they were closer to the plan I'm following than the H.H plans. Anyway I don't think there is a plan out there that is guaranteed to get me to the line injury free , I've had ITB trouble before when I was jogging less than 12 miles a week ! I'll be using the foam roller , icing & stretching like mad to get to the start line on October this year though.

I'd recommend 'The Grid' it's a far more effective roller and it won't degrade like the standard foam rollers.

I still think there's a lot of speedwork in that program and at a glance there doesn't seem to be any real midweek long runs, if you've done your research and reckon it's for you then go for it, if not you still have time to shop around.

Concerned2 · 25-04-2011 10:25pm

mrslow wrote: »

I'd recommend 'The Grid' it's a far more effective roller and it won't degrade like the standard foam rollers.

I still think there's a lot of speedwork in that program and at a glance there doesn't seem to be any real midweek long runs, if you've done your research and reckon it's for you then go for it, if not you still have time to shop around.

Ya the absence of a long midweek run stands out like a sore thumb in that plan but I think I've a better chance getting to the start line with some mileage traded off against extra speedwork.

BrokenMan · 25-04-2011 11:51pm

Concerned2 wrote: »

Guys I'm not following the 3:40 plan from that website (I think you have to pay to get hold of that plan) , I'm going to follow the plan http://www.runningplanet.com/training/marathon-training-beginning-competitor.html .I've followed the equivalent 5k plan which I liked & I'm currently following the equivalent half marathon plan. I am using this plan instead of the HH one because it has a greater proportion of fast running & I find my ITB problem flares up worse from easy running than from the hard stuff I must admit I've not looked into the P&D plans , I assumed they were closer to the plan I'm following than the H.H plans. Anyway I don't think there is a plan out there that is guaranteed to get me to the line injury free , I've had ITB trouble before when I was jogging less than 12 miles a week ! I'll be using the foam roller , icing & stretching like mad to get to the start line on October this year though.

Ah ok, thought you were on the 3:40 plan which looks like a brute. The one you are following looks a lot better, might even steal a few of the workouts from it myself. If you haven't looked into the P&D plan its worth getting the book anyway it gives great reasons why you are running each session.
If you find that the faster worlouts are easier on the ITB then definitely use that as a positive, you wont be the only one who finds that, thankfully ITB isn't something thats raised its head fior me so far so can't give any specific advice on it. There are plenty of folks around here though that can (within the bounds of the charter or course

)

RayCun · 26-04-2011 8:59am

Concerned2 wrote: »

Guys I'm not following the 3:40 plan from that website (I think you have to pay to get hold of that plan) , I'm going to follow the plan http://www.runningplanet.com/training/marathon-training-beginning-competitor.html .I've followed the equivalent 5k plan which I liked & I'm currently following the equivalent half marathon plan. I am using this plan instead of the HH one because it has a greater proportion of fast running & I find my ITB problem flares up worse from easy running than from the hard stuff I must admit I've not looked into the P&D plans , I assumed they were closer to the plan I'm following than the H.H plans.

The Higdon Novice plan is at one extreme, where its all miles and no speedwork. That running planet plan is at the other extreme, and P&D are somewhere in the middle. The thing I notice about your plan is that there's only a long run every second week, while P&D have one every weekend, alternating between easy long runs and long runs with PMP miles.

It looks like an interesting approach, you must let us know how you get on with it.

nerraw1111 · 26-04-2011 10:58am

I'd echo the comments about thinking twice before doing DCM. I did it in 2009 after running my first 10km race 6 months earlier. I had a great day running it but took me nigh on four months to recover. Nothing serious just silly mistakes. I don't regret doing it, it was a great experience but was a bit ambitious and was perhaps lucky not to do serious damage.

I'm considering it doing this year. What training plans are people following NOW rather than what they will be doing in a couple of months?

I was following Ryan Hall's half marathon plan as I found it gave a good mixture of decent long (ish) runs as well as intervals and speed work.

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-244-258-12006-0,00.html

I do a lot of multi sport races which will be my main focus for the summer so hoping to combine a marathon training schedule with cycling.

Niamhus86 · 27-04-2011 10:35am

Hi Guys

Am doing 10mile, 13 mile this year and am considering doing full marathon aswell... only thing is I am on hols to USA (wont run over there as it will be boozy holiday for sure lol) and wont be home til 13th October (going for 2 weeks!) - marathon is on 31st october, so 2 weeks after I get home - Will I be ok ya reckon !!!???

LAst year I was on hols for 2 weeks, then did 10 mile and was quite sore lol although would be training alot more this year I would reckon !

Opinions needed please - would I be better doing marathon next year when I have no holidays near the time of the marathon ??

Perkina3 · 27-04-2011 10:42am

Hey I ran the marathon like Raycun for the first time last year and will be popping in and out of this now that it's started again!

.....

Good luk all and I may see you there at the start line this year!

Listen to Ray!! He knows his stuff!

Mr Slow · 27-04-2011 10:47am

Niamhus86 wrote: »

Hi Guys

Am doing 10mile, 13 mile this year and am considering doing full marathon aswell... only thing is I am on hols to USA (wont run over there as it will be boozy holiday for sure lol) and wont be home til 13th October (going for 2 weeks!) - marathon is on 31st october, so 2 weeks after I get home - Will I be ok ya reckon !!!???

LAst year I was on hols for 2 weeks, then did 10 mile and was quite sore lol although would be training alot more this year I would reckon !

Opinions needed please - would I be better doing marathon next year when I have no holidays near the time of the marathon ??

The weeks you're away should be where your training peaks, taking 2 weeks off then return in the middle of taper is not the best preparation IMO! Wait for 2012

RayCun · 27-04-2011 10:50am

Niamhus86 wrote: »

Am doing 10mile, 13 mile this year and am considering doing full marathon aswell... only thing is I am on hols to USA (wont run over there as it will be boozy holiday for sure lol) and wont be home til 13th October (going for 2 weeks!) - marathon is on 31st october, so 2 weeks after I get home - Will I be ok ya reckon !!!???

Most people will miss some of their training for one reason or another, and it is possible to work around it. You should start your training plan a couple of weeks early, so that by the time you go on holiday you have completed all of your long runs. When you get back to Ireland you will be too close to the marathon to do any major training. Try to do some running when you are on holiday, even if its just getting out for a few easy miles, so you aren't losing too much fitness.

Perkina3 · 27-04-2011 10:58am

Niamhus86 wrote: »

Hi Guys

Am doing 10mile, 13 mile this year and am considering doing full marathon aswell... only thing is I am on hols to USA (wont run over there as it will be boozy holiday for sure lol) and wont be home til 13th October (going for 2 weeks!) - marathon is on 31st october, so 2 weeks after I get home - Will I be ok ya reckon !!!???

LAst year I was on hols for 2 weeks, then did 10 mile and was quite sore lol although would be training alot more this year I would reckon !

Opinions needed please - would I be better doing marathon next year when I have no holidays near the time of the marathon ??

See I dunno I would have to disagree with Slow in this....You are perfectly capable of doing the marathon despite the holiday but would have to jus taper ur booziness a little...

No problems have a few drinks but just don't get hammered on a regular basis and I would say get a few runs in.....

You could do it but you would just have to adjust the training programme...start two weeks earlier maybe on the hal higdon programme and then get one last mid distance run c 13 - 14 miles within a day or two getting back in Ireland....

Ur trip to the states is not ideal but u cud do it I think...

I went to Israel last year and drank a lot and came back an ran the half in 1.43..... And my training last year was not to the level of ppl like slow, ray and rainbow unfortunately but I still did alright.

rainbow kirby · 27-04-2011 11:01am

Perkina3 wrote: »

And my training last year was not to the level of ppl like slow, ray and rainbow unfortunately but I still did alright.

My training sucked large hairy nuts last year (peaked at 38mpw, longest run 18 miles) - DCM '10 was the worst marathon I have run so far (4:27:00) :eek::mad:

BrokenMan · 27-04-2011 11:06am

Niamhus86 wrote: »

Hi Guys

Am doing 10mile, 13 mile this year and am considering doing full marathon aswell... only thing is I am on hols to USA (wont run over there as it will be boozy holiday for sure lol) and wont be home til 13th October (going for 2 weeks!) - marathon is on 31st october, so 2 weeks after I get home - Will I be ok ya reckon !!!???

LAst year I was on hols for 2 weeks, then did 10 mile and was quite sore lol although would be training alot more this year I would reckon !

Opinions needed please - would I be better doing marathon next year when I have no holidays near the time of the marathon ??

Yes you can do it, it's not going to be ideal but certiainly not impossible. You are looking at a 4 week taper instead of the standard 3 weeks and its probably going to be more severe than usual. Get your peak week done just before you go on hols and try to get even 5 shortish runs in over the 2 weeks holidays and it will certainly stand to you. As soon as you are back try to get a 13 mile run in then drop into the standard taper.

You wont be at 100% pf your potential but you will be able to finish.

Mr Slow · 27-04-2011 11:11am

My training last year peaked at 35 miles and I was wishing I'd done more in those last few miles of the race. What Niamh proposes is not ideal, from painful experience I would aspire to having as much as possible within my control to be 'ideal' before the marathon. I'm currently following a 55 mile schedule for Cork with paced runs, tempos, VO2 max sessions and long runs of 2 x 20 plus a 22. I'm watching my diet and making sure to rest as much as possible. One can survive a marathon on a weak training schedule, but that's not ideal!:)

opus · 27-04-2011 11:13am

nerraw1111 wrote: »

I'd echo the comments about thinking twice before doing DCM. I did it in 2009 after running my first 10km race 6 months earlier. I had a great day running it but took me nigh on four months to recover. Nothing serious just silly mistakes. I don't regret doing it, it was a great experience but was a bit ambitious and was perhaps lucky not to do serious damage.

Just for a bit of balance, I started running in Nov '09 purely to do the Cork marathon as a friend suggested it was one of those things you should do at some stage. Although I hadn't run before I'd have had a reasonable level of fitness from doing other things.

Seven months later I slogged my way through a very wet June bank holiday Mon which was my first ever race & finished well ahead of the time I was told to aim for starting out. Afterwards went onto run two more marathons in '10 & will probably do three as well this year.

To cut a long story short, it is possible to make a marathon your first running experience although of course I might just have been fortunate the way things worked.

Disclaimer: always ready the fine print, your mileage might vary etc etc

Perkina3 · 27-04-2011 11:19am

mrslow wrote: »

My training last year peaked at 35 miles and I was wishing I'd done more in those last few miles of the race. What Niamh proposes is not ideal, from painful experience I would aspire to having as much as possible within my control to be 'ideal' before the marathon. I'm currently following a 55 mile schedule for Cork with paced runs, tempos, VO2 max sessions and long runs of 2 x 20 plus a 22. I'm watching my diet and making sure to rest as much as possible. One can survive a marathon on a weak training schedule, but that's not ideal!:)

I did that and it hurt like bloody hell but my time was ok:cool:... 4 hrs 6 mins... with proper training...could have done it close to 3.30 I think....

As has been said, taper ur training schedule slight.,...make sure to get up to 40 - 45 miles a week at ur peak and watch ur pace work and diet. Extra emphasis on these shud limit the effect of ur holiday so long as u keep up with a few short maintenance runs

RayCun · 27-04-2011 11:20am

The thing about marathon training is that it's a marathon, and not a sprint:D

If you decide in the middle of September that you'd like to run the Dublin marathon, you're going to be in a world of pain. You can't cram in extra training and make up time you've lost like that - it's a long process of adapting your body to the distance.

The converse of that is, you can miss some training without losing too much fitness. Just as it takes time for your body to sharpen up, it also takes time to lose that tone. So I'll repeat

Get your major training finished before you go on holiday. You should be at peak fitness by the end of September. (A little earlier than the rest of us, but not too bad)
Try to maintain that fitness while on holiday. you don't have to live like a monk, but get some runs in, and don't pig out completely
Continue this maintenance when you get back

It's not an ideal buildup, but it's not a disaster either.

Nules10 · 27-04-2011 12:23pm

Will I ? won't I?
Once i press the submit reply button no going back.....
Running over a year now and really getting into. My times aren't great... but one thing i do have is commitment. I love plans and stick to them and hate missing runs.
10k time 59.xx (think the xx was actually 59

)
Cliffs of Moher Half: 2.16
I am doing the Kildare half in a couple of weeks and really hoping to improve on my half time. Training going really well for this.
Do i start at the very beginning then of the Marathon training plan ? and between when i finish my half in Kildare and when i start the marathon training plan what do i do? Keep distances up at 13m?? Sorry these are probably silly questions.

Ok now you have to hit the submit reply button :eek:

RayCun · 27-04-2011 12:35pm

Nules10 wrote: »

Do i start at the very beginning then of the Marathon training plan ? and between when i finish my half in Kildare and when i start the marathon training plan what do i do? Keep distances up at 13m??

Yes, start at the very beginning of the marathon training plan. It doesn't matter if the first few weeks are a bit easier than what you've done so far, you'll be working hard soon enough

After the half, first of all take a rest week

After that, it's up to you - you could do a few weeks of easy nough running, just to take a break from training plans. Or you could try doing some speed training, it's always useful and a different kind of training can be as good as a rest. (it will also make you apperciate the slower runs much more!)

Then maybe start the marathon training plan a week or so early, so you've built in some holidays/sickness time if you need it.

Perkina3 · 27-04-2011 12:38pm

I would maybe even suggest two weeks (Just from my personal experience). I got hit with a couple of bouts of sickness and injuries that knocked me for a couple of weeks but rays advice is good...as always!

BTH · 27-04-2011 12:41pm

A lot of people recommending a good solid base before attempting to aim for the marathon. But what is recommended? I get the impression you should have 18-24 months of consistent running. I wouldn't have this. Maybe 18 months running, but consistent? Not a chance. Started Tri's last year and ran a total of roughly 450km in 12 months. Now in the last 7 months building for this year (half iron distance) I'm already at 900km. Last year I would also have been playing football at the start of the year, and for 10years+ before that. But only since October am I running 2/3 times a week on a consistent basis.

So would this be considered a good enough base? The years of soccer have left me more suited to shorter stuff (18:25 for 5k), but the last 7 months I've been working on longer runs. Just wondering what the more knowlegable distance runners here would think based on my position. Is my dozen or so years in sport enough of a base considering I wouldn't have the running specific base?

RayCun · 27-04-2011 1:00pm

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

Just wondering what the more knowlegable distance runners here would think based on my position. Is my dozen or so years in sport enough of a base considering I wouldn't have the running specific base?

A lot of people coming from another sport overestimate how fit they are - there is a big difference between someone who plays five a side once or twice a week and someone else who trains 3 times a week for a full match on the weekend, but both will describe themselves as 'fairly fit from the football' :rolleyes:. And on top of that there is a big difference between the demands of a football game, and of a 2 hour run, so people are sometimes surprised by how hard they find running, even if they are genuinely fit. So that's why there's an emphasis in having a solid base in running, specifically, before you start marathon training.

It sounds to me like you have a good base. What kind of miles do you do in a week? When you say you're working on longer runs, how far has your longest run so far been?

tHE vAGGABOND · 27-04-2011 1:55pm

I know already now that Im going to miss 4 or 5 weekends in the middle of my marathon training, for a number of weddings in July and August.

So even though we are a full 6 months away Im doing a bit more now that I really need to - as the folks say, it will stand to me having that strong base to work from. The theory being that I can then afford to have the odd 20 mile week and it wont be a disaster [where missing 6 weekends/long runs in a 14/16 week plan, when coming into it with next too no base would be very bad].

You dont plan to fail, you fail to plan - as I was constantly told in school :cool:

BTH · 27-04-2011 1:57pm

RayCun wrote: »

A lot of people coming from another sport overestimate how fit they are - there is a big difference between someone who plays five a side once or twice a week and someone else who trains 3 times a week for a full match on the weekend, but both will describe themselves as 'fairly fit from the football' :rolleyes:. And on top of that there is a big difference between the demands of a football game, and of a 2 hour run, so people are sometimes surprised by how hard they find running, even if they are genuinely fit. So that's why there's an emphasis in having a solid base in running, specifically, before you start marathon training.

It sounds to me like you have a good base. What kind of miles do you do in a week? When you say you're working on longer runs, how far has your longest run so far been?

I would have had times when I would have trained 2/3 times a week for weekend matches and times when "training" during the week would have consisted solely of 5-a-side games, depending on the how long ago your talking!!

Weekly, covering 25-28 miles or so. Longest run has been 13.5mile, but I just did a quick check and I have about a dozen runs 10mile+ this year, . Doing them at about 7:40 per mile so 1:42 is the longest (i'm converting everything here as I work off metric). A good bit off 2 hours, but it's a good bit off 31st October too. Just remember that I'm swimming and cycling on top of this. Still in my twenties (just) and I weight the same as a packet of malteasers so I believe should capable of building on where I am right now. Was really just wondering what others would consider an adequate base.

Woddle · 27-04-2011 1:59pm

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

I would have had times when I would have trained 2/3 times a week for weekend matches and times when "training" during the week would have consisted solely of 5-a-side games, depending on the how long ago your talking!!

Weekly, covering 25-28 miles or so. Longest run has been 13.5mile, but I just did a quick check and I have about a dozen runs 10mile+ this year, . Doing them at about 7:40 per mile so 1:42 is the longest (i'm converting everything here as I work off metric). A good bit off 2 hours, but it's a good bit off 31st October too. Just remember that I'm swimming and cycling on top of this. Still in my twenties (just) and I weight the same as a packet of malteasers so I believe should capable of building on where I am right now. Was really just wondering what others would consider an adequate base.

Thats a great base, more of the same for the next few weeks.

Mr Slow · 27-04-2011 2:03pm

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

I know already now that Im going to miss 4 or 5 weekends in the middle of my marathon training, for a number of weddings in July and August.

In this country J, you're only supposed to be married to one person at any one time. Not judging, it's just the way it is.

RayCun · 27-04-2011 2:38pm

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

Weekly, covering 25-28 miles or so. Longest run has been 13.5mile, but I just did a quick check and I have about a dozen runs 10mile+ this year, . Doing them at about 7:40 per mile so 1:42 is the longest (i'm converting everything here as I work off metric). A good bit off 2 hours, but it's a good bit off 31st October too.

That's loads, you're well set up so.
I can see I'll need a post explaining what a Long Slow Run is though

RayCun · 27-04-2011 2:41pm

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

I know already now that Im going to miss 4 or 5 weekends in the middle of my marathon training, for a number of weddings in July and August.

You could also look at doing some of your long runs midweek? Normally I'd say its not worth the hassle - you're throwing off your schedule in the week before and the week after, and you're running at a different time of the day - but if you have 2/3 weekends in a row when you won't be able to run, it might be the best option.

menoscemo · 27-04-2011 2:45pm

RayCun wrote: »

That's loads, you're well set up so.
I can see I'll need a post explaining what a Long Slow Run is though

Not really. He has a 18.25 5k. Mcmillan gives an LSR pace of 7:22-8:22 for this, so well within range.

RayCun · 27-04-2011 2:51pm

menoscemo wrote: »

Not really. He has a 18.25 5k. Mcmillan gives an LSR pace of 7:22-8:22 for this, so well within range.

I'm planning to insitute a new "no novices are allowed finish before the mentor" rule, so he'll have to fecking slow down

Dublin Marathon 2011 Novices Mentored Thread

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