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Rural mobile phone users could lose signal
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Sorry but that is total nonsense and is driven by marketing not reality. Spectral efficiency will allow you to calculate the probable bandwidth for one user and one user only near the centre of the cell, the normal efficiency is about 3.5/5 bits per hertz and with 5Mhz cells you can see just how limited 4G will be in Ireland. There was talk of 20Mhz channels which would deliver more bandwidth.
They may even still be there I forget...but it's still easy to calculate the probable speed one user will get.
Also if you have no 3G signal now you will never have 4G service either again not the way Comreg have designed the auctions, remember it's 70% population coverage not 70% geographic coverage so your only hope is a fibre rollout.
Yes with unlimited bandwidth and only one user in the cell LTE will deliver reasonably high speeds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_efficiency
Here's another good explanation :http://gigaom.com/2010/03/05/whats-slowing-down-verizons-lte-speeds/
Now I'm not saying that LTE is not important and what you want to do IS definitely worthwhile go ahead and IoffL will probably support you in your endeavor, email them and ask
I agree with you 100% that the comreg auction structure will ensure that 4G will not create a wide service.
I am not saying that LTE will be gbs but 4G which will be the next 20 year does have that capability.
Germany ensured that the 800Mhz spectrum range will be used to service rural areas. This range is perfect for rural due to it wavelength. This range is also the current analog tv and there is a reason it was used for this.
creating a wireless system that is also tied into the fiber optics systems would create even further distributions with high bandwidth capabilities. This could mean that rural areas could use shortwave length ranges so as to create high bandwidth systems.
Wireless systems that are structured as part of fiber optics could over come the last mile problem in both cities and rural communities.0 -
Sorry to hear you are going to the twilight zone...
There's not much to debate, LTE will not deliver Gbs, even in your dreams.
Max throughput in 20Mhz channels is clear, for one user it'll be about 30Mhz, then when many users are sharing your speeds will drop away and approach zero. So much for the wonders of LTE:)
Everything else,all the wonderful speed promises, are fantasy dreamed up in marketing departments:)
I have not said that LTE will produce gbs I was referring to 4G which could be labelled as 5G for marketing reasons in future. 4G to imply the next 20 years as a whole.0 -
Mobile connections can't and won't deliver gigabit speeds. It just isn't going to happen. The Shannon limit and spectral efficiency dictate the physical limits.
I've seen a number of 16b/s/Hz tossed around for 4G technologies; I think that's hopelessly optimistic (I'm being polite here), but let's play with it. In order to achieve 1Gb/s throughput for a single connection under ideal conditions, that would require 62MHz of downstream bandwidth. On just one sector.
Given that it's difficult to achieve 16b/s/Hz on a 256QAM licensed microwave point-to-point link with XPIC, nevermind from a crowded cell sector to a handheld device that doesn't even have line of sight, the idea that gigabit speeds are coming to your mobile any time soon is, frankly, delusional.0 -
Assuming you did have say 70MHz channels, then the real world speed for such a 1Gbps peak Base Station would be about 20MBps for only one user connect on an "average" location. With 20 simultaneous video streams you get then 1Mbps.
It's delusional. Other than Mobile Base stations replacing WiFi Hotspots, they are never going to be much more than x4 faster, peak (assuming 20Mhz channels instead of 5MHz). The spectrum doesn't exist.
Research and Base Station marketing always quotes a perfect signal (i.e. you can see the nuts & bolts on the mast) and even sometimes adds MIMO or separate channels which is misleading as that doesn't increase single user peak speed in real life.
You can get 82Mbps on 3G! But not in the real world.0 -
Assuming you did have say 70MHz channels, then the real world speed for such a 1Gbps peak Base Station would be about 20MBps for only one user connect on an "average" location. With 20 simultaneous video streams you get then 1Mbps.
It's delusional. Other than Mobile Base stations replacing WiFi Hotspots, they are never going to be much more than x4 faster, peak (assuming 20Mhz channels instead of 5MHz). The spectrum doesn't exist.
Research and Base Station marketing always quotes a perfect signal (i.e. you can see the nuts & bolts on the mast) and even sometimes adds MIMO or separate channels which is misleading as that doesn't increase single user peak speed in real life.
You can get 82Mbps on 3G! But not in the real world.
8x8 MIMO has shown a proof of concept that achieves up to 1 gigabit. I am not saying that this is going to happen next year but it is possible for these systems to produces wireless transfer rates up to 1 gigabyte per second.
That will occur in the next 10 to 15 years. Ireland by allowing its bandwidth to be opened up with only 70 population coverage will be years behind when this technology does take off.
There is many other promising technology innovations that will also enable 1 gigabit per second wireless data transfers.0 -
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Sorry, but that's just buzzword porridge.football_lover wrote: »8x8 MIMO has shown a proof of concept that achieves up to 1 gigabit. I am not saying that this is going to happen next year but it is possible for these systems to produces wireless transfer rates up to 1 gigabyte per second.
That will occur in the next 10 to 15 years. Ireland by allowing its bandwidth to be opened up with only 70 population coverage will be years behind when this technology does take off.
There is many other promising technology innovations that will also enable 1 gigabit per second wireless data transfers.
8x8 MIMO just means dividing sub-carriers across multiple antennas. Yes, there's some clever stuff you can do with that sort of technology, but none of that clever stuff can exceed the Shannon limit.
Gigabit wireless data transfer can be done now. There are off-the-shelf commercial products that can achieve gigabit wireless data transfer - point-to-point, over short distances, subject to ComReg licence, and at a fairly significant price.
Gigabit point-to-multipoint wireless as a consumer solution over useful distances isn't going to happen. Please stop buying into this vapourware, it's only hurting the situation.0 -
football_lover wrote: »
There is many other promising technology innovations that will also enable 1 gigabit per second wireless data transfers.
You've swallowed the blue pill of amazing technological advances somewhere in the future, even the DECNR have swallowed that pill too.
As has been pointed out over and over again here we've almost reached the Shannon limit and "ya cannae beat the laws of physics" no matter what wishful thinking is involved0 -
Lightly loaded in a 5MHz channel Mobile wireless will never be better than five years ago. Heavily loaded on a "best possible" system you'll get 0.5Mbps versus 0.25Mbps.
A 20MHz channel lets you have x4 speed. Very few 20MHz channel systems on offer.
If we actually ran at the Shannon Limit the speed would be about 10% more than on offer 10 years ago.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80517650&postcount=14
MIMO is very expensive, always will be, as it's multiple more expensive aerials and radio sets at base and only adds capacity, about x2 on average in an Urban replacement of "WiFi" hotspots. MIMO will rarely be deployed in Rural situation as the 50% average capacity increase (not speed) on a heavily loaded cell is never worth the capex. Adding capacity mostly only improves speed on heavily loaded systems where speed is 0.120Mbps to 1Mbps. It doesn't much affect lightly loaded speeds. The signal quality (distance from mast) gives a 200:1 variation in lightly loaded speed!
On a lightly loaded sector the MIMO adds nothing at all. All the "headline" speeds are when ONLY ONE person is connecting and has a perfect signal. Divide headline speed by 4 roughly for average good signal and by 100 (no mistake!) for cell edge. Then divide speed by number of connected users (assuming a PERFECT 100% efficient system)!
A normal Mobile system to roll out with real National coverage uses more electricity and a bit more investment than a 100x faster fibre to everyone solution.
A Wireless system to give everyone a guaranteed one Fifth of UPC's entry level speed (6Mbps vs 30Mbps) would need 12 x 20MHz channels (duplex) which is 480MHz of spectrum and about x10 as many base stations. Cost about 60 Billion Euro! Electricity consumption about 200x a National Fibre to everyone solution.
Fibre to Everyone that has ESB can be done for 1.5 Billion Euro, or very well or inefficiently for 2.5 Billion.
A 90% population (not geographic) coverage LTE system about twice as good as existing 3G/HSPA is about 1.5 Billion Euro. Currently Comreg are not offering any licence deal that allows LTE to be better than 3G.0 -
Lightly loaded in a 5MHz channel Mobile wireless will never be better than five years ago. Heavily loaded on a "best possible" system you'll get 0.5Mbps versus 0.25Mbps.
A 20MHz channel lets you have x4 speed. Very few 20MHz channel systems on offer.
If we actually ran at the Shannon Limit the speed would be about 10% more than on offer 10 years ago.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80517650&postcount=14
MIMO is very expensive, always will be, as it's multiple more expensive aerials and radio sets at base and only adds capacity, about x2 on average in an Urban replacement of "WiFi" hotspots. MIMO will rarely be deployed in Rural situation as the 50% average capacity increase (not speed) on a heavily loaded cell is never worth the capex. Adding capacity mostly only improves speed on heavily loaded systems where speed is 0.120Mbps to 1Mbps. It doesn't much affect lightly loaded speeds. The signal quality (distance from mast) gives a 200:1 variation in lightly loaded speed!
On a lightly loaded sector the MIMO adds nothing at all. All the "headline" speeds are when ONLY ONE person is connecting and has a perfect signal. Divide headline speed by 4 roughly for average good signal and by 100 (no mistake!) for cell edge. Then divide speed by number of connected users (assuming a PERFECT 100% efficient system)!
A normal Mobile system to roll out with real National coverage uses more electricity and a bit more investment than a 100x faster fibre to everyone solution.
A Wireless system to give everyone a guaranteed one Fifth of UPC's entry level speed (6Mbps vs 30Mbps) would need 12 x 20MHz channels (duplex) which is 480MHz of spectrum and about x10 as many base stations. Cost about 60 Billion Euro! Electricity consumption about 200x a National Fibre to everyone solution.
Fibre to Everyone that has ESB can be done for 1.5 Billion Euro, or very well or inefficiently for 2.5 Billion.
A 90% population (not geographic) coverage LTE system about twice as good as existing 3G/HSPA is about 1.5 Billion Euro. Currently Comreg are not offering any licence deal that allows LTE to be better than 3G.
Germany. Finland, Sweden, Denmark and Switzerland have all rolled out LTE systems that would put the current Irish wired broadband system to shame.
They have also included massively distributed fiber optics systems to back up the wireless systems.
I am not against fiber optics but the last mile problem can be over come with wireless systems combined with fiber optics.
Your figure of 1.5 billion fiber optics systems to over come the last mile for 100% coverage is very optimistic. The only way you would achieve this and come close to UPC average minimum distribution consistencies is via wireless systems.
That is how Sweden and Finland enabled 100% consistent distribution.
And for you to say that MIMO is always going to be expensive is not true.0 -
Fixed Wireless + fibre for maybe the last 10%, Mobile doesn't give anyone Broadband.Your figure of 1.5 billion fiber optics systems to over come the last mile for 100% coverage is very optimistic. The only way you would achieve this and come close to UPC average minimum distribution consistencies is via wireless systems.
It could even be cheaper. 1.5 Billion would be with some fixed wireless, real broadband at a real 20Mbps, not a fake 20Mbps or 100Mbps (one user and perfect signal). Quite simply the reporting about LTE speeds is so misleading and unqualified as to be a lie.
The talking down of Fibre and a proper plan is simply so the Government can do nothing. The current Broadband Plan is a plan to do nothing except mapping.
Government Lackeys and Mobile operators have a vested interest in inflating the cost of fibre. It's about as cheap and easy to deploy as copper telephone lines but about x10,000 the capacity. You can put it in water pipes, sewer pipes, on ESB or phone poles, automatically trench verges.
LTE etc is PURELY for Mobile. Operators will do it anyway. It isn't and won't be a Broadband solution. UPC will do slightly less than 1/2 the population with coax for the last part from Cabinet to house. That part can be FIXED wireless (up to 45km for maybe 5 people sharing), VDSL (up to 200m) or coax. In Urban areas people could get fibre direct which will be x10 download and x100 upload speed of UPC.
We have a DCNER, Comreg, Civil service that advise the Government to do nothing and leave it to the Market. The "Market" is only interested in a short term maximum return for a minimum capex. Not in co-operation, national planning, long term investment.
That's simply not true. ALL Irish broadband guarantees a connection and the average speed is about 4Mbps. The minimum is about 1Mbps. For UPC & Dungarvan customers it's 30Mbps to 100Mbps. The headline LTE speeds are for ONLY ONE USER connecting with a PERFECT signal. The average speed is 2Mbps. The minimum is 0.12Mbps or no connection. Even without moving when you had 8Mbps at 6am you may find at 8pm that the speed is 0.5Mbps or you can't connect or the connection drops.Germany. Finland, Sweden, Denmark and Switzerland have all rolled out LTE systems that would put the current Irish wired broadband system to shame.
No real LTE anywhere with real customers is comparable to Broadband. If everything else was equal then on average in a 5MHz channel it's 50% better than 3G and in a 20MHz channel its about five times better. But typical 3G only gives decent speeds with only 4 or 5 users on a mast sector. If LTE is used for x4 longer or x5 as many people as LTE smart phones and tablets take off in the next two years (they basically hardly exist yet) then LTE will only be about the same performance per user as 3G today.
LTE is for MOBILITY. It's not and won't be a "last mile" Broadband solution. There are numerous far cheaper and better technologies for that.
It's INHERENTLY more expensive than non-MIMO. MIMO is for the places that have UPC already. It's a method for Vendors to sell expensive upgrades when an operator can't add fill in Base stations which add genuine capacity.And for you to say that MIMO is always going to be expensive is not true.
Either you are in the Mobile Industry or you haven't studied this.0 -
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Fixed Wireless + fibre for maybe the last 10%, Mobile doesn't give anyone Broadband.
It could even be cheaper. 1.5 Billion would be with some fixed wireless, real broadband at a real 20Mbps, not a fake 20Mbps or 100Mbps (one user and perfect signal). Quite simply the reporting about LTE speeds is so misleading and unqualified as to be a lie.
The talking down of Fibre and a proper plan is simply so the Government can do nothing. The current Broadband Plan is a plan to do nothing except mapping.
Government Lackeys and Mobile operators have a vested interest in inflating the cost of fibre. It's about as cheap and easy to deploy as copper telephone lines but about x10,000 the capacity. You can put it in water pipes, sewer pipes, on ESB or phone poles, automatically trench verges.
LTE etc is PURELY for Mobile. Operators will do it anyway. It isn't and won't be a Broadband solution. UPC will do slightly less than 1/2 the population with coax for the last part from Cabinet to house. That part can be FIXED wireless (up to 45km for maybe 5 people sharing), VDSL (up to 200m) or coax. In Urban areas people could get fibre direct which will be x10 download and x100 upload speed of UPC.
We have a DCNER, Comreg, Civil service that advise the Government to do nothing and leave it to the Market. The "Market" is only interested in a short term maximum return for a minimum capex. Not in co-operation, national planning, long term investment.
That's simply not true. ALL Irish broadband guarantees a connection and the average speed is about 4Mbps. The minimum is about 1Mbps. For UPC & Dungarvan customers it's 30Mbps to 100Mbps. The headline LTE speeds are for ONLY ONE USER connecting with a PERFECT signal. The average speed is 2Mbps. The minimum is 0.12Mbps or no connection. Even without moving when you had 8Mbps at 6am you may find at 8pm that the speed is 0.5Mbps or you can't connect or the connection drops.
No real LTE anywhere with real customers is comparable to Broadband. If everything else was equal then on average in a 5MHz channel it's 50% better than 3G and in a 20MHz channel its about five times better. But typical 3G only gives decent speeds with only 4 or 5 users on a mast sector. If LTE is used for x4 longer or x5 as many people as LTE smart phones and tablets take off in the next two years (they basically hardly exist yet) then LTE will only be about the same performance per user as 3G today.
LTE is for MOBILITY. It's not and won't be a "last mile" Broadband solution. There are numerous far cheaper and better technologies for that.
It's INHERENTLY more expensive than non-MIMO. MIMO is for the places that have UPC already. It's a method for Vendors to sell expensive upgrades when an operator can't add fill in Base stations which add genuine capacity.
Either you are in the Mobile Industry or you haven't studied this.
Ireland does not have a 100% broad band population coverage. The countries I list all have 100% LTE population coverage capable systems. That is what I refer to as to shame.
Their mobile communications is better than our fixed line systems. Finland has 100% fiber optic coverage and there population is just as rural as ours and parts of that population are in the arctic circle. There wireless systems have better coverage than our fixed line systems there is something very wrong with that.
You cannot even compare our broadband as there is large population groups with no coverage at all in Ireland.
We require a wireless system to reach pockets not covered by by fixed lines systems.
We are allowing national spectrum's to tied into contract that only requires 30% coverage in the first 4 years and 70% in seven years. We are going to get left behind.
You stated "LTE is for MOBILITY. It's not and won't be a "last mile" Broadband solution. There are numerous far cheaper and better technologies for that" Do you have any idea how expensive it is to put cables into the ground. Using Wireless systems that part of a fiber optic distribution system can overcome the last mile issue. as can the use of 800Mhz spectrum.0 -
But using FIXED Wireless, not LTE. Fixed wireless per Mbyte of speed and G byte of cap is cheaper and up to x8 better performance than best LTE.
Also fibre is CHEAPER than LTE. Nor does fibre always have to go in the ground.0 -
This is the key point, fibre is still almost handled delicately and revered by operators in Ireland, when it can be more or less regarded like any other regular copper cable nowadays. We don't need to lay ducting to every part of Ireland to provide fibre optic coverage! It can be strung on poles or buried direct in the ground. With a little creativity and application, fibre can be wrapped around all overhead ESB wires, not just the "figure of 8" around Ireland run by ESBT.football_lover wrote: »Do you have any idea how expensive it is to put cables into the ground. Using Wireless systems that part of a fiber optic distribution system can overcome the last mile issue. as can the use of 800Mhz spectrum.0 -
football_lover wrote: »Do you have any idea how expensive it is to put cables into the ground. Using Wireless systems that part of a fiber optic distribution system can overcome the last mile issue. as can the use of 800Mhz spectrum.
Well you do realise that to rollout 4G every mast in the country would have to be fibred up in any case? The operators will have to bring fibre to every part of the country so why not bring the fibre the extra mile or two and deliver it to communities? The situation now would possibly be every operator running different fibres to every mast, seems unlikely as as there will only two mobile consortia. So the fibre will be doubled up on anyway
If the fibre is managed by the state, they can get a decent return on their investment and then decide how to hook up more rural areas, preferably using FWA for the "last mile".0 -
Well you do realise that to rollout 4G every mast in the country would have to be fibred up in any case? The operators will have to bring fibre to every part of the country so why not bring the fibre the extra mile or two and deliver it to communities? The situation now would possibly be every operator running different fibres to every mast, seems unlikely as as there will only two mobile consortia. So the fibre will be doubled up on anyway
If the fibre is managed by the state, they can get a decent return on their investment and then decide how to hook up more rural areas, preferably using FWA for the "last mile".
You could bring the fiber optics to the street cabinet and also in over head cables and also wire wrap it around mains and this could all be done for rural and urban.
And fiber optics could potentially be unlimited in bandwidth and with better switching it could also be upto 1000 times faster.
And there are also technical solutions for using wireless at street level to cover from the cabinet to the house and offer 50mbps easy and that would be real not advertise. Technically it could go much higher than this and up to hundreds of MBPS or even GBPS.
But none of this changes the fact our government has given contracts to companies that require only 70% population coverage while no other country has done anything this stupid.
This makes me want to vomit as that is how disgusting it actually is and every politician I approached was not interested and there offices made excuses about them not being in and they would call me back and guess what they never did. And I approached every party about this.
I makes me wonder if this country has ever really gotten away from its corrupt political past.
I am sorry to tell you but I think Ireland is doomed as it has no proper vision of a future and when people realize how far we are behind our competitors then it will be too late.
You may think this is an over reaction but go and have a look at the internet of things and how embedded technology is going to drive economics.
I have several business ideas around technology I have developed for home automation systems that are cheap and easy to retro fit and I am going to leave Ireland with these and develop them else where. And I have a few friends who are going to do the same.0
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