Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Proposed Blasphemy Law

18911131420

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 683 ✭✭✭leincar


    Yes, but why you're quoting a long article from a spoof newspaper in a discussion forum is a bit mystifying...

    Lighten up please. It was something I wrote. Mainly to give people a giggle and show how ridiculous a law it would be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    pts wrote: »
    Thanks Dave! In case anyone is looking for the link it is: http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1047592

    EDIT: The Humanist guy does look a bit twitchy alright :)

    Grr, Irish web proxies are few and far between :/

    Rehost on youtube please :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 Free Speech IE


    Long-time lurker, first-time poster...

    I was absolutely gobsmacked when Ahern came out with his proposal re the blasphemous libel legislation. I am currently involved in trying to bring together like-minded people to fight the proposal. A group of us are hosting a public meeting in Waterford this Thursday, 21st May. Further meetings across the country are to follow. If anybody from the legal profession is interested in speaking at the Waterford event, please get in touch. The details are as follows:

    BLASPHEMY IS A VICTIMLESS CRIME

    PUBLIC MEETING

    VENUE: THE TOWER HOTEL, WATERFORD CITY
    DATE: THURSDAY 21st MAY
    TIME: 8 -10pm


    A public meeting will be held in The Tower Hotel, Waterford City, to oppose the Government’s proposed revival of the blasphemy laws.

    The meeting was planned on a new Irish website - http://blasphemy.ie - which also includes examples of material that could become illegal if the new law is passed.

    The Waterford meeting is the first of several to be held around the country, organised by Atheist Ireland, an advocacy group for an ethical and secular Ireland.

    Speakers will include:

    Michael Nugent, chair of Atheist Ireland and co-author of I Keano

    Barry Grant, Waterford resident and writer/videomaker.

    Other speakers to be confirmed.


    Local politicians will be invited, including Deputy Brendan Kenneally, Chairman of the Select Joint Committee for Justice, as will Deputy Brian O'Shea, also a member of said committee.

    “Most Irish people, regardless of their religious beliefs, do not want this law to be passed” said Barry Grant. “This meeting will give Waterford people an opportunity to voice their opinions.”

    Further information:

    blasphemyireland@gmail.com

    Campaign website: http://blasphemy.ie


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    They've gone about this in the complete wrong way. Atheist organisations are going to detract people from the main religions supporting their cause if they disagree with what the Government are doing. It's all too militant atheist kind of stuff like that atheist bus in London.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,753 ✭✭✭fitz0


    Jakkass wrote: »
    They've gone about this in the complete wrong way. Atheist organizations are going to detract people from the main religions supporting their cause if they disagree with what the Government are doing. It's all too militant atheist kind of stuff like that atheist bus in London.
    So what, we should just say nothing? How would that help? Having all the support in the world won't help if we just sit on our hands doing nothing, not that I believe that campaigning will detract support. If the fact that atheists are campaigning against a ridiculous law is the religious folks' reason for withdrawing their support against something they see as wrong then I despair of Irish people.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Jakkass wrote: »
    It's all too militant atheist kind of stuff like that atheist bus in London.
    A gentle ad on the side of a bus is "militant" when the website behind the bus ad that originally offended Ariane Sherine told people that they would burn alive in flaming sulpher for all eternity presumably isn't "militant"?

    Get outta that! Try to look at your side with the same eyes you look at ours :)


  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,073 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Jakkass wrote: »
    They've gone about this in the complete wrong way. Atheist organisations are going to detract people from the main religions supporting their cause if they disagree with what the Government are doing. It's all too militant atheist kind of stuff like that atheist bus in London.

    If they're really bothered about the cause they'll still support it. I haven't heard of any religious organisations doing anything about it, and its not like they're saying the meetings are only for atheists.


  • Registered Users Posts: 189 ✭✭ceret


    Sounds interesting. Make sure you video it or transcribe it so people not there can know what's going on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,753 ✭✭✭fitz0



    BLASPHEMY IS A VICTIMLESS CRIME

    PUBLIC MEETING

    VENUE: THE TOWER HOTEL, WATERFORD CITY
    DATE: THURSDAY 21st MAY
    TIME: 8 -10pm


    Live webcast maybe?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Jakkass wrote: »
    They've gone about this in the complete wrong way. Atheist organisations are going to detract people from the main religions supporting their cause if they disagree with what the Government are doing.
    I take it you are suggesting that they drop any mention of Atheist Ireland in the campaign, and simply run a campaign from some anonymous organisation. While I agree that AI are going to (1) alienate any support from religious groups, and (2) cause elderly people to faint upon hearing the word "atheist", there doesn't appear to be anything other than a grumble coming from the churches and people really need to get over the word "atheist".

    What are the HAI up to, I wonder?
    Jakkass wrote: »
    It's all too militant atheist kind of stuff like that atheist bus in London.
    Bombs on buses are militant, not slogans printed in pink and orange.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    No fitz0 I never said I had an objection with the cause. Rather I have an objection with the way it is being done. People should be encouraging people of all religious beliefs and affiliations to take part. This campaign doesn't due to a heavy atheist bias.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 Free Speech IE


    Jakkass wrote: »
    They've gone about this in the complete wrong way. Atheist organisations are going to detract people from the main religions supporting their cause if they disagree with what the Government are doing. It's all too militant atheist kind of stuff like that atheist bus in London.

    I had my reservations about it as well. I am non-religious and am not a member of Atheism Ireland, but I don't see any of the religious groups getting out there and trying to fight this. I'm all for people enjoying their religious beliefs as long as government doesn't decide to try and legislate on what are abstract, philosophical concepts. It's just ridiculous. Why should we become a beacon of intolerance in the West? Look at the countries that do have blasphemy laws. I certainly don't want to go down that road.

    I was delighted to hear Fr Brian Darcy coming out against this on Spirit Moves on Sunday. The main churches are claiming that the goverment did not consult with them on this, so I would love to see them coming out strongly against it. It actually benefits the smaller religious groupings more than the Catholic or Protestant churches as the legislation states that a signigicant number of a religious group must be outraged by the 'blasphemous matter'. If you take the Sikh population, for example, which is between 800 and 1000, they might only need to have 200 people complain for it to be a very significant number (25-30%) of the Irish population. I think the Jewish population is even smaller. And then you've got the Scientologists, who really don't like anybody expressing any percieved negative opinions about them. The Muslim population, which made up under 1% of the Irish population in the 2006 census would be another group who would cleary benefit from this. But the 'moral majority' of lapsed Catholics would see very little benefit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Free Speech IE, several religious leaders have written with their opposition in the Irish Times. As such I don't think that is a fair objection.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 Free Speech IE


    I will be videoing the proceedings. I'll look into doing a webcast. If I can't do that, I'll put it up on youtube as soon as possible afterwards and post the link here.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Free Speech IE, several religious leaders have written with their opposition in the Irish Times. As such I don't think that is a fair objection.
    Unfortunately, their letters, as well as ours, were transporting chips and a batter sausage the next day. Letters alone won't budge the government - stubbornly and publicly refusing to let the issue lie just might.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Dades wrote: »
    What are the HAI up to, I wonder?
    They were on the radio within hours of this coming out first...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭whatdoicare


    Typical, they can't seem to pass a law about gang membership but they can waste time with this rubbish. How could they even begin to enforce that kind of law??:eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    I don't know if this has been suggested but if the law passes how about setting up a wiki-religion. The religion can be edited by any member and can have many conflicting beliefs. Make a ludicrous demand for prosecution. When it get's shot down devise a class-action suit that no mere mortal in government or not can decide who's beliefs are more legitimate than others on the grounds of religion. I'm sure a paypal driven atheist secular fundraiser could finance such a case. Make the law impossible...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    ShooterSF: See I think "atheist fundraiser" is where this is going clearly wrong. How about showing us secularism at work and making it a religion neutral cause rather than one that promotes militant atheism?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 Free Speech IE


    Jakkass wrote: »
    ShooterSF: See I think "atheist fundraiser" is where this is going clearly wrong. How about showing us secularism at work and making it a religion neutral cause rather than one that promotes militant atheism?

    Can you please explain where you are getting this from? Who is promoting militant Atheism (if there can be such a thing)? This meeting, and the others to follow, are purely related to the free speech issue relating to the proposed blasphemous libel legislation. Athiesm Ireland provides a framework with which to facilitate this protest. I would be only too delighted to subscribe to a similar protest started and run by the Catholic Church or any of its associations. It would certainly have a much higher chance of success!

    This is not an Atheist v Religious issue. Everybody is affected by this, regardless of their views on religion. A Catholic will be just as liable to prosecution when commenting on Scientology or Islam as a Humanist or Atheist will be. In fact, as Islam views the claim that Jesus Christ is the son of God as blasphemous, it opens a massive can of worms for Christians in this country.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Jakkass wrote: »
    ShooterSF: See I think "atheist fundraiser" is where this is going clearly wrong. How about showing us secularism at work and making it a religion neutral cause rather than one that promotes militant atheism?

    There I edited it, happy? See I can compromise ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 Free Speech IE


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Free Speech IE, several religious leaders have written with their opposition in the Irish Times. As such I don't think that is a fair objection.

    I don't see them organising a campaign of protest though. Do you?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Distancing themselves from it is enough. It doesn't affect Christians in the same way as atheists I will concede that much. I personally don't blaspheme, or rather I don't publish anything with blasphemy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 Free Speech IE


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Distancing themselves from it is enough. It doesn't affect Christians in the same way as atheists I will concede that much. I personally don't blaspheme, or rather I don't publish anything with blasphemy.

    If you write on this forum, or anywhere else where it can be seen by the general public, that Jesus Christ is the son of God, you are blaspheming against Islam. One person's religious beliefs are often another's blasphemy. You must be extremely careful about what you write if you have never committed blasphemy in somebody's eyes. It clearly does affect Christians in exactly the same way as atheists with the exception that Christians are less likely to intentionally blaspheme against Christianity. And even that depends on one's definition of blasphemy. I know plenty of Christians who take God's name in vain, which would be considered to be blaspheming.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    While I agree with the principle that we need to resist any law against blasphemy, I do not subscribe to the idea that every utterance made is now blasphemous. That's just disingenuous.

    The proposed legislation in fact makes it very difficult to prove.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 Free Speech IE


    Dades wrote: »
    While I agree with the principle that we need to resist any law against blasphemy, I do not subscribe to the idea that every utterance made is now blasphemous. That's just disingenuous.

    The proposed legislation in fact makes it very difficult to prove.

    I'm not trying to be disingenuous. I am looking at worst case scenarios, which the legislation has the potential to lead to. Why open the door? According to Ahern: 'The revised provision in regard to blasphemy requires at least three elements to be present: that the material be grossly abusive or insulting in matters held sacred by a religion; that it must actually cause outrage among a substantial number of adherents of that religion; and, crucially, that there be an intent to cause such outrage'. So, if a group feels 'insulted' in matters held sacred to them, are 'outraged' by this insult then who is to say whether or not the blasphemer in question did so intentionally? There is way too much grey area to legislate for here, in my opinion.

    It all boils down to you being free to express your opinions on concepts which are important to me and me being free to chose whether or not I feel insulted or offended by that, and to what degree. I must take responsibility for my feelings in that situation. The State does not need to, nor can they effectively, legislate in that situation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭imokyrok


    Dades wrote: »
    While I agree with the principle that we need to resist any law against blasphemy, I do not subscribe to the idea that every utterance made is now blasphemous. That's just disingenuous.

    The proposed legislation in fact makes it very difficult to prove.

    I agree the legislation will be very difficult to prove but that won't stop religious extremists trying. A couple are already boasting about their plans in that regard. Think of the potential for abuse of Gardaí time alone. Then consider how people will feel intimidated from expressing any opinion in the first place when they have even the potential risk of a €100,000 euro fine plus legal expenses hanging over them.

    It truly is an appalling law and also a major source of international embarrassment. We are the laughing stock of the civilised world on this one - check out the web and you'll see whats being said in the UK, US and Australia. :mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Sleazus


    I agree the legislation will be very difficult to prove but that won't stop religious extremists trying. A couple are already boasting about their plans in that regard. Think of the potential for abuse of Gardaí time alone. Then consider how people will feel intimidated from expressing any opinion in the first place when they have even the potential risk of a €100,000 euro fine plus legal expenses hanging over them.

    It truly is an appalling law and also a major source of international embarrassment. We are the laughing stock of the civilised world on this one - check out the web and you'll see whats being said in the UK, US and Australia.

    In fairness, I object to the law on the basis that it's embarrassing and backwards and primitive, but I don't for one second think it'll be used to turn us into an Orwellian Republic. For all the talk of the "chilling effect" of our libel laws (the notion that libel laws impede free speech), a lot of people still say really stupid things about each other, and the punishment there can be a lot more than €100,000.

    The only damage this law does it what you mention at the end of your post - it makes us a laughing stock and it offends the principle of free speech by the nature of its existence, not its use.


  • Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭imokyrok


    Sleazus wrote: »
    In fairness, I object to the law on the basis that it's embarrassing and backwards and primitive, but I don't for one second think it'll be used to turn us into an Orwellian Republic. For all the talk of the "chilling effect" of our libel laws (the notion that libel laws impede free speech), a lot of people still say really stupid things about each other, and the punishment there can be a lot more than €100,000.

    The only damage this law does it what you mention at the end of your post - it makes us a laughing stock and it offends the principle of free speech by the nature of its existence, not its use.

    It would be difficult for extremist groups with an agenda to use libel laws to further their goals. The use of the proposed legislation is another matter entirely. They are not people who are amenable to reason and will use any means at their disposal to promote their goal of religious laws. They won't suceed but in that won't prevent them causing needless suffering to free minded individuals in the meantime. Check out discussion of the topic on politics.ie for an indication of what one such group claims it intends.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭imokyrok


    Not sure if this has been posted yet so:

    PUBLIC MEETING - BLASPHEMY IS A VICTIMLESS CRIME
    VENUE: WYNN’S HOTEL, ABBEY STREET, DUBLIN
    DATE: MONDAY 25th MAY TIME: 8-10pm

    The Dublin meeting is the second of several to be held around the country, organised by Atheist Ireland, an advocacy group for an ethical and secular Ireland. Speakers will include:
    Michael Nugent, chair of Atheist Ireland and co-author of the play I Keano
    Ian O’Doherty, columnist with Independent newspapers
    Other speakers to be confirmed.
    Local politicians will be invited.

    http://blasphemy.ie/


Advertisement