Dublin Bus and dangerous driving

Hotblack Desiato · 27-08-2005 12:28am #1

Something happened earlier today which was very frightening and thinking of it now it makes my blood boil :mad:

I and several other people were crossing Leeson St. (right at the Stephen's Green end) on the green man, coming from the Earlsfort Terrace side, got as far as the little traffic island and a double decker DB bus broke the red light and turned left onto the bus lane on Leeson St.

The bus was stopped or nearly stopped at the traffic lights, and then the driver decided to proceed through a red light and into the path of pedestrians already crossing on the green man. We had to scatter out of the way.

Unfortunately I didn't get the reg. no. of the bus or even the route number, I was too busy getting out of the way :mad:

You'd think a company that was under investigation for causing the deaths of several pedestrians would ensure that its drivers complied with basic rules of the road but particularly where pedestrians are concerned.

As far as I'm concerned, that driver is a disgrace and isn't fit to hold a licence for any vehicle.

I suppose I'm just lucky I didn't end up underneath that bloody bus. I really doubt this driver would have stopped even then.

Edit:
The bus was carrying passengers at the time.

The traffic changes on Stephen's Green have made it much better for pedestrians at the shopping centre and at Kildare St - but the downside is that crossing at the Leeson St end is now much harder. The green man takes bloody long enough to come around so the least we should expect is that traffic respects it.

Perhaps it occurred at this location because the bus is turning onto a bus lane and there's no crossing traffic. There's "only" pedestrians in the way so why wait...

Ray777 · 27-08-2005 5:35pm

I know the corner you're talking about, and I've seen countless identical near misses, involving buses jumping the red light. Basically, the road lay-out at that corner is extremely stupid. Quite often, a bus will have the green light to turn left onto Leeson Street, but can't move because there's another vehicle in front, in the same lane, waiting for the green light to head straight on. As soon as the light turns green for the car in front, it goes red for the bus turning left. Quite often, the driver of the bus might not notice that his light has just gone red, and will automatically turn left, just as the pedestrians are being given the go-ahead to cross. It's a really stupid light-sequence and I can guarantee that someone will end up under a 46A at that location, one of these days.

Ray :cool:

BrianD · 28-08-2005 12:33am

I cross this junction regularly and the biggest traffic hazard are pedestrians. Those going north across the junction are often misled by the fact that although the traffic going from Leeson St. onto Stephens Green south has beeen signalled to stop the sequence also allows traffic from the bus lane on Stephens Green to turn left onto Leesons St. I don't know how many people that I have seen walk out in front of turning buses.

Ninja900 wrote:

You'd think a company that was under investigation for causing the deaths of several pedestrians would ensure that its drivers complied with basic rules of the road but particularly where pedestrians are concerned.

What a stupid and childish remark to make.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-08-2005 7:19pm

BrianD wrote:

I cross this junction regularly and the biggest traffic hazard are pedestrians.

So jaywalking pedestrians as a bigger hazard than red light breaking vehicles????

Sure, there is bad behaviour by peds at that junction, and they shouldn't do it, but drivers of motorised vehicles create a far greater hazard to others when they break the rules than peds do.

This bus driver could have killed several people. He saw pedestrians crossing the road and he refused to stop. Even if he had had the green light - perhaps he incorrectly believed he had - he should have given way to the pedestrians in the interests of safety as well as to obey road traffic law.

Those going north across the junction are often misled by the fact that although the traffic going from Leeson St. onto Stephens Green south has beeen signalled to stop the sequence also allows traffic from the bus lane on Stephens Green to turn left onto Leesons St. I don't know how many people that I have seen walk out in front of turning buses.

True, but that shouldn't happen when you wait for the green man as I and the others did.

What a stupid and childish remark to make.

Don't you think Wellington Quay should have been treated by Dublin Bus as a major wake-up call in relation to pedestrian safety?
My GF knows a woman seriously injured in that crash. Her life will never be the same, and she is likely to have a permanent disablement as a result - and she's one of the lucky ones.
I think DB have serious questions to answer in relation to risk-taking by their drivers. It seems to me there is a level of tolerance of this.

BrianD · 28-08-2005 11:40pm

Don't you think Wellington Quay should have been treated by Dublin Bus as a major wake-up call in relation to pedestrian safety?

Absolutely not. It was a wake up call in relation to operational procedures that had become standard practice in Dublin Bus. I have no inside info on the Wellington Quay incident other than what has been reported in the media. If you have absorbed the reports you will note that there is no connection between this incident and the light breaking inident you allege. AT Wellington Quay, the accident appears to have been caused by the practice of leaving the bus "in gear" while the hand brake was applied. The bus would have crashed into anything in its path - it was a case of wrong place at the wrong time for the unfortunate people who were killed or injured. I think everyone would agree that the this reported practice by DB as at least odd most people would see the potential (and deadly) risk it is entirely different to a driver deliberately breaking a red light.

MrPudding · 29-08-2005 9:16am

BrianD wrote:

I cross this junction regularly and the biggest traffic hazard are pedestrians.

Pedestrians can be dangerous, both to themselves and to other road users. But i think to call them the biggest traffic hazard is not really accurate. I don’t understand how you can believe that a squishy object crossing the road when he shouldn’t is more dangerous that a bus with fare paying passengers in it being driven through a red light and through a pedestrian crossing being used at that particular time with pedestrians that have a green light to cross. How does that work?

Even if they were crossing when they should not have been the bus driver should have given way to them. The standard of driving in this country is pretty poor. I think that people that drive professionally, especially when they carry passengers, should be held to a higher standard. A bus driver that runs a red light and forces his way through a pedestrian crossing should be prosecuted and lose his job. Simple. The fact that some pedestrians are a danger to themselves and others is not relevant here. The issue is this driver and his actions.

MrP

Hagar · 29-08-2005 10:24am

BrianD wrote:

Absolutely not. .... The bus would have crashed into anything in its path.

If I ever murder someone I'm going to get BrianD to defend me.

Ray777 · 01-09-2005 1:26am

MrPudding wrote:

A bus driver that runs a red light and forces his way through a pedestrian crossing should be prosecuted and lose his job. Simple.

Yes, very simple indeed. :rolleyes: We seem to have turned into a country where our main priority is BLAME, BLAME, BLAME. As soon as you've found someone to BLAME, hang 'em. Where that particular junction is concerned, it's all too easy for a bus driver, turning left into the contra-flow buslane to be misled into turning when the car in front moves on. As he makes his manoevre, the little green man appears and the pedestrians (most of whom are hanging on for dear life on that stupid island in the middle of the road) understandably make a run for the safety of the footpath. Someone will be killed at that junction. It's only a matter of time. Also, like the driver involved in the Wellington Quay accident, some poor 46A/145/11 pilot will become yet another scapegoat.

It's an awful shame (or should that be 'sham') that, rather than actually do something to prevent a future accident (caused by human error - something we are all capable of, whatever our job), the authorities always insist on making the blood-hungry public happy by inflicting justice on a person who just happened to be guilty of making a mistake.

Ray :cool:

MrPudding · 01-09-2005 8:50am

Ray777 wrote:

Yes, very simple indeed. :rolleyes: We seem to have turned into a country where our main priority is BLAME, BLAME, BLAME.

No I think you will find we have turned into a country where our main priority is blame someone else, blame someone else, blame someone else.

Ray777 wrote:

As soon as you've found someone to BLAME, hang 'em. Where that particular junction is concerned, it's all too easy for a bus driver, turning left into the contra-flow buslane to be misled into turning when the car in front moves on.

So it the fault of the car in front? Or is it the fault of the designer of the junction? Perhaps it is the fault of the pedestrians, I mean if they weren't there there might not be a pedestrian light. That would be easier.

These guys are supposed to be professional drivers. We are not talking about a driver just arrived from another country having his first experience of Irish traffic lights and badly designed junctions. Even if it was the drivers first time through the junction as a professional driver I would expect him to know how filter lights work and the meaning of a red light.

Ray777 wrote:

As he makes his manoevre, the little green man appears and the pedestrians (most of whom are hanging on for dear life on that stupid island in the middle of the road) understandably make a run for the safety of the footpath. Someone will be killed at that junction. It's only a matter of time. Also, like the driver involved in the Wellington Quay accident, some poor 46A/145/11 pilot will become yet another scapegoat.

I made no mention of the Wellington Quay incident. I am only talking about running red lights. We have all experienced bus drivers running red lights. I ahve seen it many time not just in "difficult" junctions where the poor drivers get confused.

Ray777 wrote:

It's an awful shame (or should that be 'sham') that, rather than actually do something to prevent a future accident (caused by human error - something we are all capable of, whatever our job), the authorities always insist on making the blood-hungry public happy by inflicting justice on a person who just happened to be guilty of making a mistake.

Ray :cool:

I know what we could do. We could prosecute bus drivers for running red lights. As more of them get prosecuted and lose their jobs the remaining and new drivers will be less likely to run red lights.

Bu the way, when a driver runs a red light that is not an accident. It is a willfull action.

MrP

BrianD · 01-09-2005 10:58am

Hagar wrote:

If I ever murder someone I'm going to get BrianD to defend me.

Again another childish comment. Are you trying to suggest that the incident on Wellington Quay was murder?
I think you should retract your post before somebody of the legal profession reads it. In any case, I understand that the driver involved in the wellington quay incident is before the courts so perhaps commenting on the case is inappropriate.

Hagar · 01-09-2005 11:31am

I was attacking your post not the actions of the driver who I never mentioned.

The bus would have crashed into anything in it's path

Must be one on the most grotesquely funny quotes on the Boards for a good while.

On reflection

The wrong place at the wrong time

is another beauty. I mean, the recklessness of those people waiting at a bus stop for a scheduled arrival of a bus...

LFCFan · 01-09-2005 12:37pm

The standard of driving by a lot of DB drivers leaves a lot to be desired. I was nearly run over by and over eager red light breaking pratt of a driver on Dame street. Pedestrian light was green, was on my way across and just about jumped out of the way when the bus flew past. That was bad enough but the driver was actually laughing at me as he passed. Only for I was in a state of shock at nearly being run over I would have gotten the reg/route number etc and reported the bastard.

optiplexgx270 · 01-09-2005 12:51pm

BrianD wrote:

Those going north across the junction are often misled by the fact that although the traffic going from Leeson St. onto Stephens Green south has beeen signalled to stop the sequence also allows traffic from the bus lane on Stephens Green to turn left onto Leesons St.

This is true, thus this thread should be renamed "Hey I just walked out in front of a bus and got scared

"

MrPudding · 01-09-2005 1:12pm

optiplexgx270 wrote:

This is true, thus this thread should be renamed "Hey I just walked out in front of a bus and got scared "

For your comfort and convenience please allow me to post an excerpt from the OP, I have highlighted what I feel are the relevent parts:

ninja900 wrote:

I and several other people were crossing Leeson St. (right at the Stephen's Green end) on the green man, coming from the Earlsfort Terrace side, got as far as the little traffic island and a double decker DB bus broke the red light and turned left onto the bus lane on Leeson St.

The bus was stopped or nearly stopped at the traffic lights, and then the driver decided to proceed through a red light and into the path of pedestrians already crossing on the green man. We had to scatter out of the way.

Things sometimes looks slightly different when you actually read the post.

MrP

optiplexgx270 · 01-09-2005 1:21pm

Well concidering the guy could not have seen the buses red light thats amazing. + on that junction the green man doesnt mean you can walk its a screwed up junction. You get green man & green for turning buses at the same time.

Hagar · 01-09-2005 1:58pm

Just to recap the ROTR

Red means stop
Amber means stop, unless it would be unsafe to do so
Green means proceed if it is safe to do so

Green does not mean an un-conditional go.

cal29 · 01-09-2005 11:42pm

Hagar wrote:

Just to recap the ROTR

Red means stop
Amber means stop, unless it would be unsafe to do so
Green means proceed if it is safe to do so

Green does not mean an un-conditional go.

And the same would apply to the pedestrian

cal29 · 02-09-2005 12:02am

optiplexgx270 wrote:

Well concidering the guy could not have seen the buses red light thats amazing. + on that junction the green man doesnt mean you can walk its a screwed up junction. You get green man & green for turning buses at the same time.

I dont know the particular junction but if both the Bus and pedestrians have a green light the Bus should still give way to the pedestrian even if the pedestrian had a red light the Bus should yield to them simply because it is not Ok to run over people because they are Stupid.

As i have said I dont know the Junction when the bus turns the corner does he have a clear view of the pedestrian crossing or is the crossing right on the corner of the turn he is making

Is it possible that the driver would not see the pedestrians till he was in the crossing

Another possibility could it be that this was a driver who was unfamilar with this junction which sounds confusing where pedestrians and buses are given conflicting signals
I know at the moment Dublin Bus are taking on a lot of new drivers in preparation for the 48 hour maximum working week

If the junction is as you describe it with buses and pedestrians both on green lights then it sounds like an accident waiting to happen the green bus light should at least be changed to a flashing amber to alert a driver that he has to yield to pedestrians on the crossing

bug · 02-09-2005 12:26am

hrm.
Im not surprised. Depending on how angsty my bus driver is, I get home about ten to fifteen minutes. Mostly by them breaking lights and passing by bemused potential passengers looking at the half empty bus.

At least once a week you get a driver acting like a raving luncatic.
If my owlfella or boyfriend drove like that I wouldnt get in the car.

They should be given anger/stress management training . I can understand it to an extent when Im that tired I want to punch whinging children on the evening.

And what is the story with that "dling ding ding ding" noise which seems to only disspear when the doors are opened manually, or by the driver repetetively opening and closing them. I feel so sorry for them having to endure that fault.

BrianD · 02-09-2005 12:27am

Hagar wrote:

Must be one on the most grotesquely funny quotes on the Boards for a good while.

If you going to quote at least do it in context and intelligently. Perhaps you should read up on the Wellington Quay tragedy before making further postings.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-09-2005 12:21pm

optiplexgx270 wrote:

You get green man & green for turning buses at the same time.

No, you don't. I work near there so I use that junction quite often. I haven't been involved in a near-miss as bad as this one there before. There was a spate of deliberate red-light breaking by buses there about a year ago, but that stopped when the Stephens Green traffic changes came in. Seems it could be on the way back now.

There is a STRAIGHT AHEAD green filter arrow and a RED light for traffic turning left, as the same time as the green man is on.

The bus driver either saw the green straight ahead arrow, thought or assumed that applied to him, and perhaps didn't see the red light for turning left (I'm being as charitable as I can here; the guy is a professional driver after all)
-or-
Knew the lights were ordering him to stop but chose to proceed.

In either case he still should have, legally as well as morally, given way to pedestrians already crossing - this would still be the case even if he had a green light.

Just as the bus began turning it was practically stopped, and the junction was full of pedestrians. This guy deliberately accelerated into them as if he was Moses parting the Red Sea. Nice.

Has anyone written to DB about an incident like this before? I feel I should but doubt they'd take any notice.

BrianD · 03-09-2005 3:16pm

You are correct about the light sequence. I have written to DB about a rude driver on the 123 route. I got not one but two lengthy letters from DB outlining the action that they were taking. Not sure if they did what they said they would do or if they were just telling me what I wanted to hear.

Dublin Bus and dangerous driving

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