2600 -v- 22000 on Cork-Tralee discussion

lxflyer wrote: »

We've been through this before.

Several of the Tralee route services on Saturday, Sunday and Monday are 2600 operated due to one of the two Kerry 22k sets operating to Dublin from Tralee on Sunday and not getting back to Cork until the 21:00 from Heuston on Sunday night.

The 2600 in question operates the 2055 Cork - Tralee Friday night and remains in Tralee for the 0455 Tralee - Cork Monday morning. It is normally spare on a Saturday, but was required today to operate some Tralee line services as the altered timetabled required three trains to operate it, normally it is two trains.

Since the timetable change one of the Kerry ICR's goes to Heuston on a Sunday with the 1150 Tralee - Heuston. This means there are three diagrams of 2600's on the Tralee line on Sunday.

1:
2055 Cork - Tralee (Sat Night).
0710 Tralee - Cork

2:
1210 Cork - Tralee
1510 Tralee - Mallow
1725 Mallow - Tralee
1915 Tralee - Cork

3:
1845 Cork - Tralee
2110 Tralee - Cork Empty.

Diagram two can often be a 4pce 2600.

corktina wrote: »

could they not park the thing in Portlaoise and send a 22 out instead?

Read my post again - one of the two locally based 22k sets that is usually on Mallow/Tralee operates an additional service to Dublin on Sundays from Tralee. As a result, to maintain the full service you end up with 2600s between Cork/Mallow and Tralee.

corktina wrote: »

read mine again...instead of using the 2600, could they not park that out of service and re-instate a stored 22 in it's place?

I've already told you - all of the stored 22k sets (approximately 4) are all being reinstated into service as the reformation process finishes.

I imagine that the cost of running that 22k all week on Cork local services would be much greater than running the 2600.

I do wonder frankly - do people just have any idea of the financial realities of the current situation in which the CIE group find themselves?

There is not enough money available to operate everything. That's the bottom line.

corktina wrote: »

exactly. If there is a spare 2600 in Cork, which there plainly must be, why not replace that with a 22. I doubt there would be much difference in the running costs

But the poster is trying to tell you that there is no spare 22 to do this. Presumably, swapping it for an in service 22 is not suitable. EDIT: Possibly not suitable due in part to the running costs that have just been speculated.

Victor wrote: »

15-20 years ago, one had to put up with them on Cork-Dublin.

that doesn't surprise me one bit

That was at a time when we had not enough rolling stock and it was the only option for an extra service on Sundays. It was also a way of swapping the sets used on Cork/Cobh during the week.

The same applied to the Galway route. There was an extra 2600 service on Sundays for a period also.

lxflyer wrote: »

That was at a time when we had not enough rolling stock and it was the only option for an extra service on Sundays. It was also a way of swapping the sets used on Cork/Cobh during the week.

The same applied to the Galway route. There was an extra 2600 service on Sundays for a period also.

the reason we had a shortage was because the mark 2s were deliberately left to rot, had they not then 2600s wouldn't have been doing cork/galway, running commuter stock on long distance services is never exceptable, it puts off potential customers from the railway and first time customers don't come back.

corktina wrote: »

how will they afford it when they can't afford it now?:rolleyes:

To take your post minus the rollie eyes, what LX just said is something I have read a few times here so no need to get like that, it is not remotely constructive. There is a lot of repetition here for the casual observer like me.

Anyway, back to topic indeed, there is another thread running recently that can take the spill over.

The more colour coded hose pipes the better

OK - There are two distinct issues here.

One - How IE have utilised the money that they invested, and whether the appropriate value was gained from it.

Two - What they can afford to do right now.

I think we can all agree the answer to question 1 - it's no it was not.

However, what you and others here seem to be not grasping is the severity of the financial situation in which the current management of the company find themselves.

We can all agree that from a broader perspective that it is not right for Mark 4 sets to be going into storage, but the plain fact of the matter that you and others seem to be ignoring is that right now they cannot afford to operate all of the trains at the moment. That's the situation that the current management face - the company (just like Dublin Bus) has serious financial issues that, if they are not addressed, could lead to the company going bankrupt. That is the stark reality of the situation.

Hence you are seeing cost cutting measures where possible that include:
- Shorter trains
- Increased use of ICRs on Dublin/Cork

- Different classes of trains being maintained in locations local to operations:

• 2600s in Cork
• 2800s in Limerick
• ICRs in Portlaoise, Cork and Drogheda (the latter two for light maintenance only)
• 29000s in Drogheda

The latter means that you (in general) avoid lengthy empty workings to/from depots and have all of spare parts/expertise in one location for each class of unit.

Specifically on Kerry, they introduced an extra train to Dublin last year that is ICR operated, using one of the two ICR sets that is usually based in Cork. That train does not get back to Cork until midnight on Sunday night.

There are no other ICR sets in Cork available to operate the Kerry route, and they have extra trains on Sunday as well - therefore you would have to send a unit from elsewhere, and find an additional driver to drive it to Cork, a second driver to drive it back, all at extra cost, and even still you would not cover all the Kerry route workings, as there are extra trains on Sundays requiring three extra sets.

Your suggestion of putting a 2600 set into storage, and running an ICR in its place frankly would not be cost effective over the full week as the cost of running an ICR on Cork/Cobh or Cork/Midleton -v- running a 2600 would be greater. Plus you have the additional fuel and driver cost of running it to/from Portlaoise for maintenance, while the 2600 sets are maintained locally.

The bottom line in all of this is that the current management are trying to keep as many services as possible running within a specific budget. None of us (myself included) particularly like some of the decisions that have had to be taken, but the company is not in a vacuum - it has to cut cost.

Would you rather that the services didn't operate at all? That's pretty much the point where we are at - and I really think people need to start grasping how serious the financial situation in this company is.

corktina wrote: »

that was not my suggestion at all. I didn't say you should run it all week, merely replace the otherwise spare 2600unit(s) (must be spare mustn't it or else it wouldn't be there to use at the weekend as it is...)

It seems to me you are saying "IE right, every other option wrong"

But you would have to get the ICR to Cork in the first place for the weekend - which would mean extra cost in terms of fuel and wages.

The 2600s are all in use Monday/Friday on Cork local services. They are spare on Sunday due to the reduced frequency on Cobh, Midleton and Mallow.

As for saying "IE right - every other option wrong", that's not what I'm saying at all, and I think it's somewhat insulting to suggest that I am, just because what I'm saying is not what you want to hear. I'm using my professional knowledge from working in finance to make my comments. The reality is that your suggestion would involve additional cost.

That's something that the company cannot afford right now.

lxflyer wrote: »

OK - There are two distinct issues here.

One - How IE have utilised the money that they invested, and whether the appropriate value was gained from it.

Two - What they can afford to do right now.

I think we can all agree the answer to question 1 - it's no it was not.

However, what you and others here seem to be not grasping is the severity of the financial situation in which the current management of the company find themselves.

We can all agree that from a broader perspective that it is not right for Mark 4 sets to be going into storage, but the plain fact of the matter that you and others seem to be ignoring is that right now they cannot afford to operate all of the trains at the moment. That's the situation that the current management face - the company (just like Dublin Bus) has serious financial issues that, if they are not addressed, could lead to the company going bankrupt. That is the stark reality of the situation.

Hence you are seeing cost cutting measures where possible that include:
- Shorter trains
- Increased use of ICRs on Dublin/Cork


- Different classes of trains being maintained in locations local to operations:

• 2600s in Cork
• 2800s in Limerick
• ICRs in Portlaoise, Cork and Drogheda (the latter two for light maintenance only)
• 29000s in Drogheda

The latter means that you (in general) avoid lengthy empty workings to/from depots and have all of spare parts/expertise in one location for each class of unit.

Specifically on Kerry, they introduced an extra train to Dublin last year that is ICR operated, using one of the two ICR sets that is usually based in Cork. That train does not get back to Cork until midnight on Sunday night.

There are no other ICR sets in Cork available to operate the Kerry route, and they have extra trains on Sunday as well - therefore you would have to send a unit from elsewhere, and find an additional driver to drive it to Cork, a second driver to drive it back, all at extra cost, and even still you would not cover all the Kerry route workings, as there are extra trains on Sundays requiring three extra sets.

Your suggestion of putting a 2600 set into storage, and running an ICR in its place frankly would not be cost effective over the full week as the cost of running an ICR on Cork/Cobh or Cork/Midleton -v- running a 2600 would be greater. Plus you have the additional fuel and driver cost of running it to/from Portlaoise for maintenance, while the 2600 sets are maintained locally.

The bottom line in all of this is that the current management are trying to keep as many services as possible running within a specific budget. None of us (myself included) particularly like some of the decisions that have had to be taken, but the company is not in a vacuum - it has to cut cost.

Would you rather that the services didn't operate at all? That's pretty much the point where we are at - and I really think people need to start grasping how serious the financial situation in this company is.

they eventually won't operate at all as the subsidy will be cut so much and people will just give up