Where does English Test Cricket go from here?

Beasty · 06-01-2014 8:48pm #1

I don't want to clog up the Ashes thread as there are still the one-dayers to come. However given the mauling they received from the Aussies, I wondered what peoples thoughts were on the Test setup going forward.

Cook and Flower have said they want to stay on, and in my view Flower's record is good enough to warrant another chance. Cook is relatively new to the job and tbh there's no-one else I can see out there who could take on the captaincy at present

I think there may be some questions over Gooch's involvement. There have been complaints that the current regime don't listen to some of the external "experts/former players" who have commented and made suggestions to improve things going forward. I'm not saying they should listen to everyone, but is it about time that some new faces were introduced to the backroom staff to hopefully help retresh the team?

In terms of the team itself, if Cook is captain clearly he opens. I would certainly stick with Pietersen and Bell - they are too good to ignore and again must be given further chances in my view. Hopefully they can form the backbone of the batting around which new blood can be introduced

Root is clearly one for the future, and has shown enough to be given a place in the team. Hopefully he will be there for years to come - if so he's going to be favourite to take on the captain's role at some stage.

Stokes as probably made himself first name on the teamsheet with his performances in Australia, and Broad didn't have a bad series with the Ball. Anderson will be different again in English conditions and I can't see any reason to drop him

I think they made a mistake taking Bairstow as backup keeper. They tried to cover 2 bases as clearly he does have experience in keeping wicket. However he's not even Yorkshire's current keeper, and if he has any ambitions to do it at International level he's got to do what Alec Stewart did and take it up full time again. I think there's scope for a Prior return, but England really must now look to the future to find a long term replacement

Swann didn't have a reputation as a great spinner before he came into the team, but took to it like a duck to water. Is there someone out there who can adapt their game and really take to test cricket that should be given a chance?

So who would get into your team?

booth70 · 06-01-2014 9:27pm

Agree both Flower and Cook have enough credit in the bank to carry on in their current jobs

Cook's been a shambles as a captain this series but there are really no alternatives.....Broad is too hot headed to be a Test captain and I can't really see him as one in the future either......read Vaughan's piece in the paper today about KP as a vice captain which was interesting but whether KP is committed to English cricket going forward is something that remains to be seen but even if he is can't see the ECB going back to him

Carberry is finished which means Root come back to the team and opens with Cook.....If Trott is finished as well then Bell stays at 3 and KP at 4......Ballance gets one more series against SL to prove himself at 5..... Stokes has cemented his place at 6

Bairstow has been a disaster and unless Prior fails miserably in the early county season games he comes back at 7 against SL......not sure who else is there on the county circuit knocking on the door

Broad and Anderson in no problems with that which leaves two slots for 1 seamer and 1 spinner....

Finn is the future of English pace bowling and must be given an extended run this summer

Whilst I still think Panesar is the best spinner in England at the moment , the way he has been handled by Cook and the management makes me think they don't fancy him for the future..... but I would rather have him bowling against the Indians this summer than somebody like Borthwick

Gillespy · 06-01-2014 9:45pm

They're fortunate with their schedule, Sri Lanka, India, NZ and WI before the next Ashes I believe. That gives Root, Ballance, Stokes time and the superstars a chance to redeem themselves. Compton too perhaps.

Some crazy stat like 38 innings since they scored over 400, so Cooch has to be looked at.

Prior would make a good captain but that's off the table now and would be very unfair to Cook. No doubt Prior he will return though. Monty should return too, I can't see them waiting for Borthwich. He took 3 wickets but only one of those wicket balls actually pitched. An in form Finn will improve most teams. Onions should be in the running too, Anderson hasn't performed for a while. Stokes has taken Woakes place I guess. There will be a big emphasis on county form for the first time in ages.

Jonny_Darcy · 06-01-2014 9:56pm

Despite this shambles of a series, I dont think their problems are as bad as many are making out. The captaincy is an issue but as others have pointed out who takes over?

Jonny_Darcy · 06-01-2014 10:03pm

Beaky Jack wrote: »

Likely they will try and steal George Dockrell

Unfortunately that had crossed my mind also

Beasty · 07-01-2014 12:45am

I really do think Monty has played his last game for England. There have to be some casualties from the "older guard" and he ticks all the boxes, particularly as there are temprement issues.

Despite what I said in my OP, next on the list (of established players) is likely to be Prior - the management have to be seen to be doing something and getting rid of the players like Carberry is not going to be seen as changing anything (although I cannot see any basis for retaining Carberry). Maybe Jos Butler coule be in line for an extended run.

Some of the younger squad players may well get their chance in the one day squad, and someone may show enough in the one dayers to earn a test call-up.

It will be interesting to see what happens with Rankin - cramp is a fitness issue and to struggle with it when he gets his chance is a very bad sign.

djimi · 07-01-2014 10:45am

1. Cook
2. Root
3. Bell
4. KP
5. Ballance
6. Stokes
7. Prior
8. Broad
9. Spinner
10. Seamer
11. Anderson

I think this is the side going forward in the short term for me.

Questions need to be asked about Cooks captaincy, but he is still Englands best batsman by some distance. Poor form in this tour, but no reason to think that he wont bounce back.

If Root is going to be seen as the long term option to open then he needs to be put in no 2 and left there for a sustained period of time. No sense in dicking him around any more by batting him down the order; put him in at the top, leave him there for a while and then reassess.

Bell and KP at 3 and 4 just seem like natural and obvious selections. On form Bell has the temperament to bat the no 3 role, and there really isnt much point in putting KP any lower. KP needs to step up to the plate though and start showing some experience; the level of utter stupidity that he showed at times on this tour has been quite ridiculous, and the old "its just how KP plays" excuse wore very thin a long time ago. They need him to show maturity and show that he can be trusted to play the long game in test matches and not just look to hammer runs in all situations.

Ballance has shown enough at county level to get another shot imo. Id be looking at giving him a proper run in the side, and see how he is getting on after maybe 10 tests.

Stokes keeps his place as arguably the only player in the England squad to come out of this Ashes with their head held high. Looks a solid option in the middle order and his bowling as third seamer showed up Anderson and even Broad at times pretty badly this series. Long term replacement for Bresnen really.

Prior has to get back in the side this summer. He has not had a good series, but at 31/32 he is far from finished, and on form is to the England side what Haddin was for Australia this series; knowing that he is coming in lower middle order and is capable of scoring big runs quickly is a daunting prospect for a bowling attack. I also dont rate Bairstow with either bat or gloves, and frankly wouldnt have him near that test side again until he improves with both (Id actually prefer Ambrose over Bairstow, but perhaps that is just my Warwickshire bias coming out!).

Broads place is not in any immediate doubt.

Spinner and seamer are two positions where I dont actually know where to begin looking. In terms of a fourth seamer, Finn would probably be the obvious choice. Maybe someone like Jamie Overton, but it is probably a bit early for him yet. For the spinner, I dont think we will see Monty in the side again. All the talk before the final test was of Borthwick, but he wasnt exactly impressive when he got his chance. Hard to say if it was the occasion, or perhaps just an unrealistic level of expectation given the shambles of a side that he was coming into; worth another shot to see what he can do?

Anderson keeps his place on the basis of there not being a wealth of alternatives and also a lack of seniority creeping into the side, but another away series like this one and I think he is going to face some tough questions. For a long time has been a fantastic bowler when conditions suit him (most typically at home), but take away the element of swing and all you are left with is a bowler who is bowling fairly average line and length in the low to mid 80s, and quite frankly that is not good enough from your senior bowler. His decision making in this series has been questionable (negative field settings and a distinct inability to bowl the correct length) and he needs to look at how he can improve going forward.

I dont think its quite time to hit the reset button for England, but its pretty obvious that this series has been a turning point for this side, and most likely the end of an era in terms of the side that was so successful in the past decade or so. There are going to be quite a few new faces in this side over the next couple of years (which has already started; 6 of the 11 in the last test had played less than 15 test matches, and I think 5 of them had played less than 10). This has to be seen as the start of a period of rebuilding from England, with patience shown to those who are brought into the side.

dfx- · 08-01-2014 6:03am

Is there not an element of changing the deckchairs on the Titanic about player selection though? The UAE tour, the New Zealand tour, the Sri Lanka tour, the first test in India.

I think the atmosphere and environment is wrong and has been wrong for quite some time. This management haven't shown that they are capable of bringing players through or adapting. Bresnan and Tremlett still get looked at before Finn.

The current management don't seem to solve the problems the side faces. The no 6 has been a problem since forever, perhaps now Stokes will resolve it. The opener hasn't been resolved since Strauss left, could it be the same in no 3 now that Trott goes. The same for the spinner and now the wicketkeeper. If you're in, you stay in until you opt to leave, which opens the problem again.

There's something like a calamity effect left behind when someone leaves a spot because everything is focused on that individual player being present. Swann, Strauss and Prior spring to mind.

Beasty · 31-01-2014 2:25pm

BBC are reporting Flower to leave role as England coach

Dozen Wicked Words · 31-01-2014 2:31pm

Beasty wrote: »

BBC are reporting Flower to leave role as England coach

So they are keeping him on, but not to coach England. Hope to goodness Giles doesn't get the job. He has been just as bad with the one day team.

Gillespy · 31-01-2014 6:17pm

Giles is the next cab off the ranks though.

Pietersen has seen off another coach. Between himself and Graeme Smith, they've brought about the downfall of quite a few English captains and coaches.

djimi · 31-01-2014 7:21pm

Giles might get the nod on the back of what he did with Warwickshire (where he oversaw a county championship in 2012 to be fair to him). Not sure if he is the right man for the England job though at test level.

Beasty · 31-01-2014 9:39pm

I think they should look outside the current set-up. It needs someone with some fresh ideas and not influenced by what has gone on before

booth70 · 04-02-2014 7:52pm

KP gone......

Axe the best batsman in the country!!!.....Funny way to rebuild a team after the shambles:(

Dozen Wicked Words · 04-02-2014 7:52pm

Well whatever England do, it will be without Kevin Pietersen. He has been told he won't be selected again. Great player but maybe he was too toxic for the dressing room.

Gillespy · 04-02-2014 8:07pm

Time for a fresh start. New coach, new players with no baggage.

Found it odd he went home and missed the ODI and T20 series giving what's coming up and his poor form. Especially seeing how the Aussie test players played. IPL and Big Bash from now on.

booth70 · 04-02-2014 8:23pm

Won't be long now before the King of Spain officially takes over Flower's job.......

Giles and Cook:(

IT IS A RECIPE FOR DISASTER

huey1975 · 04-02-2014 9:18pm

booth70 wrote: »

KP gone......

Axe the best batsman in the country!!!.....Funny way to rebuild a team after the shambles:(

He was never really appreciated for his talent and instead he was seen as an arrogant Saffer. Personally I really enjoyed him and thought he was the most charismatic player since flintoff. It's great now though because I don't like Cook, Bell, and really dislike Broad so now instead of supporting England (due to Pietersens brilliance ) I can enjoy their demise like the good Irishman that I am

Gillespy · 04-02-2014 9:30pm

More than once they bent over backwards to accommodate him, to say he wasn't appreciated isn't fair. There's a trail of coaches and captains behind him.

In the media, I always thought he was over-hyped if anything, he wasn't that great. He's not going to go down with the greats of the game if I had any say.

Jonny_Darcy · 04-02-2014 10:26pm

With doubts over Trotts future, there are some big holes in Englands batting lineup ..Cook and Bell.. thats about it for proven players

Plus they have no international standard spinner, could be some lean years ahead for England

Rjd2 · 04-02-2014 10:36pm

Gillespy wrote: »

More than once they bent over backwards to accommodate him, to say he wasn't appreciated isn't fair. There's a trail of coaches and captains behind him.

In the media, I always thought he was over-hyped if anything, he wasn't that great. He's not going to go down with the greats of the game if I had any say.

he was in the second tier of batsman along with the likes of Laxman, to inconsistent to be up their with Sachin but a hell of a match winner and played some of the most immense innings of the last few years.

A twit, but a massive loss to cricket and for England.

TrueDub · 05-02-2014 12:20am

huey1975 wrote: »

the most charismatic player since flintoff.

Talented yes, charismatic no (imo of course). Arrogant, bloody-minded and self-interested.

Gillespy · 05-02-2014 12:37am

The use of the words ethic and philosophy in the statement is a poor reflection on his character. Awful grasp of irony too, remember when he criticized Chanderpaul for being selfish and only playing for himself. Shiv was scoring hundreds for fun at the time.

dfx- · 05-02-2014 3:55am

Beasty wrote: »

I think they should look outside the current set-up. It needs someone with some fresh ideas and not influenced by what has gone on before

Needs someone most importantly different to Flower and outside the set-up. Getting another Flower style would be continuing it all on.

But Giles will get it...

Dozen Wicked Words · 05-02-2014 8:07am

Malcolm Knox in Sydney Morning Herald sums up the KP situation quite well.

Saying that while he was scoring big runs, the management tolerated him, but once the performance dropped off, the negatives of his obnoxious attitude (Knox words, not mine) outweighed the positives.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/kevin-pietersen-ran-out-of-runs-to-outweigh-obnoxious-attitude-20140205-3219j.html?rand=1391575812562

djimi · 05-02-2014 10:24am

Gillespy wrote: »

In the media, I always thought he was over-hyped if anything, he wasn't that great. He's not going to go down with the greats of the game if I had any say.

He is in the very highest bracket of batsmen of my lifetime in terms of pure raw talent and ability, but too often the consistency and application simply wasnt there. A test career of over 8000 runs @ 47 from 104 test matches suggests that he was a great player (a very great player), but had he been able to control himself and play for the big innings rather than the big shots and quick scores then I think he could have gone down as one of the very best.

I think he will go down as one of the greats of the modern era; certainly as one of the most exciting players to have played the game in recent times, but it will always have the footnote of him being a controversial player who could perhaps have achieved even more had his mentality been right.

Royale with Cheese · 05-02-2014 10:48am

His behind the scenes antics must have been fairly bad in order to justify ending his England career. England have gone from a team that bats all the way down to no.10 to a team with about three senior batsmen in the space of two years. They're now down to just two senior batsmen, Cook and Bell. They need Pietersen badly so I'm fairly surprised he's gone. I wonder will they consider giving Morgan another shot now.

djimi · 05-02-2014 11:00am

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

England have gone from a team that bats all the way down to no.10 to a team with about three senior batsmen in the space of two years.

Id even go so far as to say in one series. The side that played in the first test of the Ashes was a strong side with batting all the way down to Swann at 9 (and who would have batted to 10 most likely had Bresnan been fit), compared to the side that lined out in the 5th test which had something like 6 players who had played fewer than 15 tests, and a side which will be even more inexperienced now when they take to the field again.

I said above that I dont think its quite time for England to press the reset button, but to be honest I think thats exactly what they are doing. Flower gone, now KP gone. I presume Cook will be okay for the moment (as captain) but probably only because there is no better candidate currently. The next couple of years are going to be interesting for England; its going to be a period of rebuilding now and faith is going to have to be shown in the young players coming through. I just hope that they are prepared to give these players time to settle in the side and not end up chopping and changing because someone doesnt click right away.

djimi · 05-02-2014 11:04am

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

I wonder will they consider giving Morgan another shot now.

I would. I think they need that player in the upper middle order who can look to take on the bowling; basically someone to replace what KP could bring to the side on his day. Morgan is in good form in the limited overs form of the game, and while I am not a fan of using form in ODI cricket as a factor in selecting a test side, I think Morgan has shown that he has fixed the technical flaws in his game and has shown enough to suggest that he is worth another shot at test level. They have nothing to lose; if it doesnt work out then so be it, but the alternative is to select a player with little/no international experience, and I dont see how that is much better of an option.

y0ssar1an22 · 05-02-2014 11:16am

He probably challenged Cooke/Flower for their dismal game plans. Play it safe and all that. When they needed to be aggressive and inventive they stuck with what they knew, which wasn't working. KP probably got sick of that attitude and let his feelings be known. I'd say this was frustrating him for a while (plus they probably never listened to his views) and eventually culminated in some sort of stand off between KP and AC (Atherton alludes to this in the following interview: http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/cricket/9150862/atherton-cook%27s-voice-key)

I think it is the wrong decision. If someone with a similar character to Lehman was coach you could guarantee this wouldn't have happened. They would go for a few beers and get everything out in the open, probably listen to KP's views and thoughts.

Gillespy · 05-02-2014 1:59pm

Given time Lehman would have done the same thing. Lehman doesn't suffer fools either, don't let his jokey personality fool you. KP isn't a victim in this, despite what his friends in the media say. If you find yourself feeling sorry for him, listen to Bob Willis again.

Where does English Test Cricket go from here?

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