Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

16791112319

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    I think I will stick that photo on the WRC thread!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    westtip wrote: »
    If you don't mind I think I will stick that photo on the WRC thread.

    Work away, its not my pic anyway should have posted it was taken by cremeegg on the galway city forum. WRC is going to be a joke!

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63144139&postcount=786


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    tech2 wrote: »
    Work away, its not my pic anyway should have posted it was taken by cremeegg on the galway city forum. WRC is going to be a joke!

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63144139&postcount=786

    But a joke at the moment we can no longer talk about!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    A lenghty discussion of the scheme has started on the politics.ie website

    http://www.politics.ie/transport/121571-gort-tuam-motorway-goes-tender.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    Some fairly clueless people in that politics.ie thread. A few know what they're talking about though.

    Referring to Gort-Crusheen as just a bypass of Gort which cost €300 million and saying the whole WRC cost less.Of course, in reality the “Gort Bypass” also bypasses Crusheen (another bottleneck) and the worst 20km of the deathtrap N18.


  • Advertisement
  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    KevR wrote: »
    Referring to Gort-Crusheen as just a bypass of Gort which cost €300 million

    The Gort Crusheen construction contract is €92m for 22km or €4.2m a km , ( they also building another 20km of local road realignment inlcusive in that ).

    I don't know about the land acquisition costs but certainly not €90m . There were previous works, geotech, archaeology fencing etc which could not have exceeded €10m the lot either , the main archaeology cost €2.2m the lot, €100k a km.

    Some typically stupid political hack over in that forum reckons that it will cost €1bn to build some 50km of the same grade of road from Gort to Tuam ...or €20m a km. No wonder the country is banjaxed with innumerate morons like that infesting the political process :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Heres a parliamentary debate I plucked up online from Feb 2009. Éamon Ó Cuiv gave clear intent the M17/M18 Gort to Tuam will be going ahead this year. More over the top promises:
    Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: Regarding the N18, the Limerick tunnel and the road to Gort will be completed next year. The road to Tuam will be built as a PPP, I have been told, all the way to the north of Tuam, which will provide a continuous motorway the whole way from the south of Limerick city——


    Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: What about Gort to Oranmore?


    Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: The road from Gort to north Tuam is being built in one section and not two, as was previously intended. That is going ahead as a PPP and those involved are very confident they will get the money


    Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: The Claregalway bypass, as Senator Healy Eames knows, is part of the——



    Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív: ——Gort to Tuam road that is going ahead next year, as I predicted it would. A relief road within Claregalway received money this year for planning, and I predicted that was the way it would proceed.

    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=SEN20090224.xml&Page=2&Ex=620#N620

    I hope Éamon Ó Cuív's crystal ball is right this time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 286 ✭✭cremeegg


    tech2 wrote: »
    Work away, its not my pic anyway should have posted it was taken by cremeegg on the galway city forum. WRC is going to be a joke!

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63144139&postcount=786

    Yep my photo folks.. not many trains will plough threw this!

    Also I live in Kilcolgan\clarinbridge...beside the Rahasane turlough.. will be interesting to see the development for new road over this..all very exciting.. i drive the N18 everyday .. its such a nitemare..to limerick.. cant wait for Gort Bypass to be open...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭ilovegermany


    Does anybody know the planning status of the Tuam Bypass - i know it was granted by the Bord in 2006 - but then it then went back to redesign to allow for 2+2?

    Anybody know if it has been fully granted planning permission?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,947 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    It's been discussed many times whether or not the M6/M17/M18 junction is underpowered. I finally got a response from the NRA on this. Here it is.
    Dear Mr. xxx,

    In your email of the 16th December, 2009, you expressed 3 main concerns regarding the design of the junction and also commented on the proposed Motorway Service Area access:

    1. ‘Underpowered’ – You appear concerned that large traffic volumes on the M6 Galway to Dublin motorway and the M17/M18 Limerick to Tuam Motorway will limit the capacity of the junction;
    2. ‘Difficult to upgrade’ – You also expressed concerns that the proposed junction will create difficulties if the junction was to be upgraded to a full free-flow junction such as a cloverleaf, partial cloverleaf, 4-level stack or similar; and
    3. ‘An apparent attempt to save money by using a small land footprint’.

    In May 2004, McCarthy Hyder Consultants Ltd in association with PJ Tobin & Co Ltd, prepared a ‘Junction Strategy Report’ to assess junction options for the 3no. junctions along the N18 Oranmore to Gort Scheme – namely Gort Junction, Kiltiernan Junction and Rathmorrissy junction. For the Rathmorrissy Junction there were 6no. options considered, including, dumbbell type junction (two level), oval roundabout junction (two level), oval roundabout junction with free flow slip lanes (three level), free flow clover leaf junction, roundabout junction (three level) with free flow left turn lanes (360m diameter) and roundabout junction (three level) with free flow left turn lanes (240m diameter). It was concluded in the report that the roundabout junction (three level) with free flow left turn lanes (240m diameter) be recommended as the preferred junction and it was this junction that was taken forward to preliminary design and through to the EIS and approved by An Bord Pleanála. While land take issues were considered in the junction selection, it was not the determining criteria. Junction performance and safety issues were also assessed in conjunction with the overall cost of the junction.

    The proposed Rathmorrissy Junction comprises a three level junction with:

    1. The M6 Galway to Dublin Motorway unimpeded through the junction on the lower level;

    2. The M18/M17 Limerick to Tuam Motorway unimpeded through the junction on the upper level;

    3. Free-Flow unimpeded left turn slip lanes on all four arms:

    i. M18 from Limerick – M6 to Galway;
    ii. M6 from Galway – M17 to Tuam;
    iii. M17 from Tuam – M6 Dublin;
    iv. M6 from Dublin – M18 to Limerick.

    4. Slip Roads off the mainline motorways to a roundabout on the middle level serving the right turn traffic movements of:

    i. M18 from Limerick – M6 to Dublin;
    ii. M6 from Galway – M18 to Limerick;
    iii. M17 from Tuam – M6 to Galway;
    iv. M6 from Dublin – M17 to Tuam.

    The traffic flows (at year of opening) published in the EIS for the M17 Galway to Tuam scheme is summarised below:

    [see attached image]

    You make reference to 50,000 vehicles per day (at opening) passing through the junction, however it should be noted it is only the right turn traffic movements that will interact with the proposed roundabout junction. In addition, the right turning peak hour flows will be tidal, where by in the AM, the peak right turn will be the M17 from Tuam – M6 to Galway and in the PM, the peak right turn will be the M6 from Galway – M18 to Limerick.

    An analysis of the operation of the roundabout has been undertaken using ARCADY (a widely accepted computer program used to model the operation of roundabouts). The analysis indicated that in the peak hour in the design year (20 years after opening), the roundabout will comfortably accommodate the predicted traffic flows with ample spare capacity. In the event that traffic flows do increase significantly greater than those predicted, the layout of the roundabout will accommodate traffic signals (should such remedial measures be required to improve traffic management) since the spacing between adjacent entry / exits are sufficiently large to accommodate vehicle storage.

    We note your comment that the roundabout junction was only specified to provide access to a proposed Motorway Service Area. However the decision on a possible motorway service area was made well after the decision to continue with the roundabout junction (three level), as demonstrated by the timeline listed below:

    · May 2004 – Issue of N18 Oranmore to Gort – Junction Strategy Report – recommending the roundabout junction (three level) with free flow left turn lanes (240m diameter) as the preferred junction arrangement;

    · In 2005 the Authority was requested by the Minister for Transport to undertake a review of policy with regard to the provision of service areas on motorway and high quality dual carriageway sections of the national roads network;

    · The Authority announced in September, 2006, the decision to secure directly, through the PPP mechanism, on-line service areas was accompanied by a map indicating the intended locations of the priority service area facilities to be procured on the major inter-urban routes, including the M6 at the M6/M17/M18 junction.

    · In October 2007, the NRA published ‘Policy for the Provision of Service Areas on Motorways and High Quality Dual Carriageways’ and included in this document was a preferred service area location at the M6/M17/M18 junction;

    I trust the above addresses your queries and concerns.

    Regards

    What does everyone think of their views on the traffic levels coming to/from Galway? 26,000 seems very low.


  • Advertisement
  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    spacetweek wrote: »
    What does everyone think of their views on the traffic levels coming to/from Galway? 26,000 seems very low.

    I do not disagree hugely with this projection . It is a very good argument for a Claregalway Bypass all the same.

    If anything I suspect the 14000 northbound and as we know 22000-24000 cars go from Claregalway to Galway every day after the N18 traffic heads towards Oranmore.

    103440.gif


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    Presumably this shows that the junction should not have been arranged to facilitate N17/N18 through traffic, and instead freeflow or less cumbersome arrangements made for going M6 to/from Galway and N17/N18 (with arrangements towards Dublin not so important).

    These are the figures at year of opening, and it would be pretty poor foresight not to expect a significant increase in the next few years with the ease of motoring that the entire motorway network across the state will bring, and specifically in this case a complete M18/N18 dual to Limerick.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I have to say I'm impressed with how technical the NRA will actually get in a reply to the general public, seeing the one spacetweek got as well as one I've recently received about the N4/M50 junction design.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    what's with the no. after numbers? do they think we're retarded and don't know what a number is?

    I see they don't give the traffic figures for the design year, and that the design year is 20 years after the road opens. even though the time the road opens is unknown, how can you predict with this level of uncertainty.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭nordydan


    what's with the no. after numbers? do they think we're retarded and don't know what a number is?

    That's just the way things are described on some technical documents e.g. specifications. It's just terminology


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    spacetweek wrote: »
    What does everyone think of their views on the traffic levels coming to/from Galway? 26,000 seems very low.

    That's 26,000 in each direction though, so 52,000 total. To compare, the Athlone Bypass carries (roughly) 33,000 total per day, the M50 roughly between 80,000 and 100,000. That 52,000 figure would mean that the M6 between Rathmorrisey and Galway will be almost 5 times busier than some other sections of the M6 (don't have exact figures to hand at the moment but will dig them out) and a lot busier than most other motorways in the country (only motorways near Dublin, Cork and Limerick will match or exceed that).

    Isn't 55,000 per day the most a D2M can effeciently carry? If so, the M6 from Rathmorrissey to Galway would need to be upgraded to D3M not long after Rathmorrissey opening.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Why are they making this heap of crap. I can't understand why they are building a 3 level stack roundabout when they can easily just build a free flow unrolled/cloverleaf, for the same cost with more benifets.

    its just seems really stupid putting a roundabout here. Especially since the service station was scrapped.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Kevr, Galway Mayo and Clare have a combined population of around 400k persons and 200k cars, does one seriously expect 50k of the cars, 1 in 4 , to traverse this junction and the road to the west of it daily ???


  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭csd


    Am I missing something, or do the numbers on some of the slips not add up?

    If, as the NRA email states, the roundabout will only be used for right-turning movements, then:
    1. How come there are 9,100 eastbound movements on the M6 slip to the roundabout, but only 8,700 heading south on the M18?
    2. Similarly, there are 8,200 coming off the M17 southbound but this turns into 8,600 westbound on the M6.

    Maybe they're assuming lots of cars will accidentally take the wrong slip and have to use the roundabout instead?

    In the absence of a ferry port or giant retail park in the vicinity, I don't think a 3-level roundabout stack here is a huge issue. I would suggests efforts would be better spent ensuring the proposed M8/N22 junction (Cork NRR) gets proper free-flow slips in all directions!

    /csd


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Kevr, Galway Mayo and Clare have a combined population of around 400k persons and 200k cars, does one seriously expect 50k of the cars, 1 in 4 , to traverse this junction and the road to the west of it daily ???

    That's a bit of dubious logic there. For a start there are a not insignificant no. of people living in Dublin that would be travelling to/from Galway regularly (relatives, business, etc.). Then there is also traffic to/from Limerick - not just Clare. Also at least some amount of traffic would be not just from Mayo, but Sligo.

    And as previously pointed out, it isn't 50k of cars, it is 25k *journeys* each way - so who knows exactly but presumably an intermediate number of vehicles, possibly closer to 25k than 50k. (the majority likely to be back/forth commuters, though some will be going only one way but made up for by vehicles the other direction going only one way, although there may possibly also be some small number of vehicles doing the jaunt more than twice in the day).

    Plucking numbers in the fashion you have and rearranging them like that (1 in 4 cars in the West) is more like contrived tabloid newspaper journalism than proper commentary.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭Roryhy


    The numbers above seem to think 400 cars per days will use the junction as a u-turn back into Galway!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    If the M17/M18 gets done before the Interconnector, I'm packing my bags and moving to a sane country :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Kevr, Galway Mayo and Clare have a combined population of around 400k persons and 200k cars, does one seriously expect 50k of the cars, 1 in 4 , to traverse this junction and the road to the west of it daily ???

    It would be more like 1 in 8 as it would be 26,000 making the journey twice per day. I remember reading a report/article months back which claimed 30,000 people commute into Galway City everyday, a ridiculously high percentage of these by car (with only a single occupant). Given that the M6 West of Rathmorrissey will take most commuter traffic from the East and South, as well as a good chunk from the North and that there are people who live in Galway but have to drive out of the City for work or other reasons on a daily basis, I don't think those figures would be too far beyond the realms of possibility.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    csd wrote: »
    Am I missing something, or do the numbers on some of the slips not add up?

    If, as the NRA email states, the roundabout will only be used for right-turning movements, then:
    1. How come there are 9,100 eastbound movements on the M6 slip to the roundabout, but only 8,700 heading south on the M18?
    2. Similarly, there are 8,200 coming off the M17 southbound but this turns into 8,600 westbound on the M6.

    Maybe they're assuming lots of cars will accidentally take the wrong slip and have to use the roundabout instead?

    In the absence of a ferry port or giant retail park in the vicinity, I don't think a 3-level roundabout stack here is a huge issue. I would suggests efforts would be better spent ensuring the proposed M8/N22 junction (Cork NRR) gets proper free-flow slips in all directions!

    /csd
    But a parclo type solution actually wouldn't cost any more. 3 level stacked roundabouts are quite large structures with a lot of concrete in them and a lot of earthworks associated with getting the top level over the other 2. Land is cheap here, so shouldn't be an issue, so I don't get it to be honest. They'd never build this as a solution to joing any 2 motorways in Germany, not a chance. It would definitely be a cloverleaf here with CD lanes, but a parclo would be fine too. Just seems a strange choice of junction to me and I can't help but feel they want to retain the option of tacking an MSA, retail park etc. onto this roundabout later, regardless of the timelines offered by them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    murphaph wrote: »
    Just seems a strange choice of junction to me and I can't help but feel they want to retain the option of tacking an MSA, retail park etc. onto this roundabout later, regardless of the timelines offered by them.

    Maybe I'm being too cynical, but that's what I think also.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    KevR wrote: »
    It would be more like 1 in 8 as it would be 26,000 making the journey twice per day.

    True , 1 in 8 cars in Galway Mayo and Clare, daily, by that reckoning,would enter and exit Galway. NOT 1 in 4...corrected.

    Other than straight through traffic the only holdups I see are M17-M6 west in the morning and M6 east to M18 southbound in the evening.

    Therefore lots will use the old roads to avoid those and therefore there is no problem :)
    I remember reading a report/article months back which claimed 30,000 people commute into Galway City everyday, a ridiculously high percentage of these by car (with only a single occupant).

    At least 1 in 3 of whom come in from the west and a significant number from Headford and also Oranmore over to Kinvara ....none of whom will use the M6 west of Rathmorrissey. Only 40,000 people WORKED in Galway city in 2006 .....dunno if that includes students or not.
    Given that the M6 West of Rathmorrissey will take most commuter traffic from the East and South, as well as a good chunk from the North

    East, Gort and points south , Northeast towards Roscommon ( N63) and some Tuam.
    There are people who live in Galway but have to drive out of the City for work or other reasons on a daily basis, I don't think those figures would be too far beyond the realms of possibility.

    The census data did not show outbound commutes and these are considerable in every direction in the morning.

    Here is the data you are referring to.

    http://www.cso.ie/census/..%5Ccensus%5Cdocuments%5CTown%20Profiles%20E-N.pdf

    gcomm.jpg


    One school I know of way out in NE Galway relies on half its staff coming from Galway every morning.

    At the end of the day I find it hard to believe that 1 in 8 cars in Galway Mayo and Clare are expected to use this road every day :D That means the AADT will be lower than that in the diagram above.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,947 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Zoney wrote: »
    Presumably this shows that the junction should not have been arranged to facilitate N17/N18 through traffic, and instead freeflow or less cumbersome arrangements made for going M6 to/from Galway and N17/N18 (with arrangements towards Dublin not so important).
    Very good point; couldn't agree more.
    Roryhy wrote: »
    The numbers above seem to think 400 cars per days will use the junction as a u-turn back into Galway!
    The only explanation I can think of is that if the MSA was built, some people (400 to be exact :P ) would be accessing the roundabout just for the petrol station. They'd then continue straight through after.
    murphaph wrote: »
    They'd never build this as a solution to joing any 2 motorways in Germany, not a chance. It would definitely be a cloverleaf here with CD lanes, but a parclo would be fine too. Just seems a strange choice of junction to me and I can't help but feel they want to retain the option of tacking an MSA, retail park etc. onto this roundabout later, regardless of the timelines offered by them.
    It's far more likely to simply be because a 3-level roundabout is the standard (cheap) way of grade separating motorways in the UK... and we copied our ideas off them. Don't trust the British!


  • Registered Users Posts: 36 sneepmo


    Just heard it on the radio today. They have shortlisted two companies to complete the road (Balfour Beatty and Direct Route). They'll choose from these two and begin in November 2010. I didn't hear about the completion date but expect it to be 2 years or so.

    http://www.galwaynews.ie/10913-construction-m17-begin-november


  • Registered Users Posts: 36 sneepmo


    They've shortlisted two companies who will now compete for the contract (Balfour Beatty and ANother).

    Heard it on local Galway radio today.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 2,834 ✭✭✭?Cee?view


    It's on galwaynews.ie as well

    CONSTRUCTION OF M17 TO BEGIN IN NOVEMBER

    January 27, 2010 - 2:12pm Construction of the proposed M17 - Gort to Tuam motorway is expected to begin in November of this year.
    It's been confirmed that two companies have been shortlisted in the tender process.
    BAM Balfour Beatty and Direct Route will now battle it out to become the contractor for the motorway which will run from Gort to the north of Tuam.
    The route will also include the Tuam town bypass.


Advertisement