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In one sentence, Enda Kenny exposes the whip system for the undemocratic joke it is

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Comments

  • #32
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    One other thing, Kenny's contempt for the Senate shows up the pipedreams of the Retain/Reform the Senate guys for what they are, and demonstrates the current value of the Senate when it comes to participating in government.


  • #33
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    The fact that the decision not to apply the whip is being regarded as somehow extraordinary shows just how screwed we really are IMO. Allowing TDs to vote with their own minds shouldn't be a rare or stupendous event.


  • #34
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    The fact that the decision not to apply the whip is being regarded as somehow extraordinary shows just how screwed we really are IMO.

    it's as if the inquiry will be some great matter of personal conscience!! The whip would matter very little in this case


  • #35
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    The fact that the decision not to apply the whip is being regarded as somehow extraordinary shows just how screwed we really are IMO. Allowing TDs to vote with their own minds shouldn't be a rare or stupendous event.

    Indeed. "relax everyone I won't exert the regular complete control over this independent inquiry".


  • #36
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,647 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Indeed. "relax everyone I won't exert the regular complete control over this independent inquiry".

    You can be sure, whip or no, that any FG/LAB members will still be expected to toe the party/government line.

    It's an exercise in optics and damage control which is already futile as the (accurate IMO) perception is already out there that this inquiry is damaged from the start and will be little more than a show trial/witch-hunt

    Kenny's arrogance and inability to open his mouth without putting both feet in it has struck again. Potentially the worst "leader" in the history of this State.


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  • #37
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    You can be sure, whip or no, that any FG/LAB members will still be expected to toe the party/government line.

    It's an exercise in optics and damage control which is already futile as the (accurate IMO) perception is already out there that this inquiry is damaged from the start and will be little more than a show trial/witch-hunt

    Kenny's arrogance and inability to open his mouth without putting both feet in it has struck again. Potentially the worst "leader" in the history of this State.

    The banking inquiry, seems a bit tame, what about the KKC Kenny's kangaroo court.


  • #38
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    You can be sure, whip or no, that any FG/LAB members will still be expected to toe the party/government line.

    It's an exercise in optics and damage control which is already futile as the (accurate IMO) perception is already out there that this inquiry is damaged from the start and will be little more than a show trial/witch-hunt

    Kenny's arrogance and inability to open his mouth without putting both feet in it has struck again. Potentially the worst "leader" in the history of this State.

    Yea he sure is. Even if you agree completely with the application of the whip you have to wonder about Enda's intelligence in saying it out loud.


  • #39
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,647 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Yea he sure is. Even if you agree completely with the application of the whip you have to wonder about Enda's intelligence in saying it out loud.

    As I've said previously, there's a reason why Kenny doesn't do debates or unscripted appearances much - and it's not JUST because he thinks he shouldn't have to.

    Enda Kenny is FG's Bertie/Cowen but at least you knew what you were getting with those guys - not the outright lies and arrogance, massive use of spin and business as usual under the guise of New Politics that the current government have delivered.

    Before he's done he'll have made FG as toxic as FF. You could argue that's already well under way by the rise in the Independent/SF vote


  • #40
    irishpancake
    Registered Users Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭irishpancake


    Sand wrote: »
    Kenny has pretty much destroyed the credibility of the bank inquiry as others have said. No one is going to acknowledge it as anything more than a political witch hunt anymore.

    And its difficult to see why. They could have packed that inquiry with wall to wall with Fianna Fail TDs and they wouldn't be able to avoid putting the lions share of the blame down to Fianna Fail and the Greens. It was their ill judged and rushed decision to put a limitless guarantee on the assets of a banking sector bigger than the entire Irish economy.

    Kenny is confirming my own misgivings that I had about Fine Gael under his leadership. Essentially incompetent, tolerant of corruption and under performance, dismissive of dissent. He cant even understand what caused the poor outcomes in Irish governance over the past decades, let alone have any interest in or capability for solving them.

    Stephen Donnelly on the other hand is very impressive - its a tough decision that he has made, but better to exit the inquiry and show it up for what it is than allow them to use the cover of his participation for the purposes of show. Donnelly is demonstrating why we need more Independants in the Dail next time out. A junior TD in an established party would never have had the courage or principle to do that.

    @Good loser


    I wanted to respond to this as soon as I read it, but I decided to pause and come back to it later. I still cant quite articulate what I think of the above viewpoint, other than to say that to me it represents all that's wrong in Irish politics and governance. I really hope I've misunderstood and you were lampooning the view you expressed, but I doubt it.

    The people have lost the confidence of the government; the government has decided to dissolve the people, and to appoint another one.
    Bertolt Brecht

    @Sand: Sorry to pick on your excellent post, but the 2008 Blanket Guarantee was on all the covered banks liabilities.

    i.e. Deposits and Bonds. Around €440 Billion, or Ireland's GDP x3


  • #41
    Awkward Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Awkward Badger


    So Joe Higgins has been nominated by the technical group to take Donnelly's place on the committee.

    I just don't understand why anyone would continue with this charade, least of all Higgins.


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  • #42
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    cerastes wrote: »
    How do you mean, we can only vote for what is presented to us, change outside that is not tolerated, protest is looked down upon or shut down and ignored. We are reliant on whats being offered, and before someone says, why doesnt someone present themselves as a candidate, its just not that straight forward.

    At the end of the day, it IS that straight forward.

    People in a a democracy have actual choices about who they elect and who is prepared to stand for election.

    If the electorate either vote for "colourful" politicians (as we frequently do) and/or opt out of the politician system en masse so the only people/parties who appear on the ballot are the "colourful" ones, the electorate will suffer the consequences of their actions and inactions.

    It is the electorate's responsibility to make the democratic system work for them. There is NO ONE out there who will step in and wave a magic wand to alleviate us of that responsibility.

    Even if someone external had that authority, why should they exercise it if the electorate aren't actively trying to engage in and alter the system?


  • #43
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,647 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    View wrote: »
    At the end of the day, it IS that straight forward.

    People in a a democracy have actual choices about who they elect and who is prepared to stand for election.

    If the electorate either vote for "colourful" politicians (as we frequently do) and/or opt out of the politician system en masse so the only people/parties who appear on the ballot are the "colourful" ones, the electorate will suffer the consequences of their actions and inactions.

    It is the electorate's responsibility to make the democratic system work for them. There is NO ONE out there who will step in and wave a magic wand to alleviate us of that responsibility.

    Even if someone external had that authority, why should they exercise it if the electorate aren't actively trying to engage in and alter the system?

    You're missing his (perfectly valid) point I think

    We effectively are a 2-party state where the decision comes down to the lesser of two evils. You criticise the candidates outside that as "colourful" (and I can't disagree with that in regards a lot of them) but who else is there? To have any real chance you need to tie on to the FF/FG mast and be bound by their "values" and whip.

    This country may back parties like SF in newspaper polls or local elections, but come the Big Day there's not a chance that they'll have a real chance - thanks to Civil War politics, and an inability of the Irish electorate to just "get over it" as the citizens up North have (and who would have a lot more to complain about than we ever did!), forgetting of course the origins of ALL of our main parties.

    Now I personally don't agree with a lot of what SF has to say, but as he said, anything different simply isn't tolerated in Ireland - it's discredited, belittled and ignored by our biased media to where the possibility of real change gets lumped in with the "colourful" aspects you mentioned.

    I do know that flipping back n forth between FF & FG will achieve nothing though.


  • #44
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    We effectively are a 2-party state where the decision comes down to the lesser of two evils.

    First, if you look at our political parties and compare them in EU political party/"philosophy"terms, we have political parties representing all shades of politics from Hard Left through to but not including Hard Right (it being a welcome absence to my mind). So we most definitely do have a choice.

    Second, as we use PR, we are not forced into the either/or choice that prevails under FPTP, so we can all safely vote for the "fringe-ist" party we like and know that PR means our vote won't be wasted as it would under other voting systems.

    Third, that means if we are a "2 party state", that is because voters choose to vote for them. They don't have to, they choose to do so. They could, let's say, choose to vote en masse to give the Green Party an overall majority, they do not choose to do so.
    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    You criticise the candidates outside that as "colourful" (and I can't disagree with that in regards a lot of them) but who else is there?

    Actually I include all the political spectrum within that description as it depends on the individual candidate more than the party or philosophy they represent.
    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    To have any real chance you need to tie on to the FF/FG mast and be bound by their "values" and whip.

    That depends on the choice of the electorate. It is their choice and their responsibly for the result.
    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    This country may back parties like SF in newspaper polls or local elections, but come the Big Day there's not a chance that they'll have a real chance - thanks to Civil War politics, and an inability of the Irish electorate to just "get over it" as the citizens up North have (and who would have a lot more to complain about than we ever did!), forgetting of course the origins of ALL of our main parties.

    This is a joke I hope.

    NI most certainly hasn't gotten over it. They are just as bogged down as ever. it is still the same sectarian head count of old.

    Just look where SF is concentrating its efforts at wooing the voters. It isn't Ballymena they are targetting, it is Ballymun.


  • #45
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Pugsly wrote: »
    I just don't understand why anyone would continue with this charade, least of all Higgins.
    He couldn't turn down a chance to pontificate on tv.


  • #46
    The_Captain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭The_Captain


    Pugsly wrote: »
    So Joe Higgins has been nominated by the technical group to take Donnelly's place on the committee.

    I just don't understand why anyone would continue with this charade, least of all Higgins.

    I would think it's because he's outspoken and experienced enough to not be taken for a ride, and knows he can easily have media interviews/TV appearances to blast the inquiry if they try to whitewash anything


  • #47
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Riskymove wrote: »
    it's as if the inquiry will be some great matter of personal conscience!! The whip would matter very little in this case

    It would though if it would prevent any scrutiny of the current governmet's actions and kowtowing to the ECB on exposing the letter allegedly bullying us into a bailout and so on and so forth.

    Don't get me wrong, I blame FF era politicians, regulators and bankers 100% for the actual banking crisis and amn't trying to hijack that, but the actions of this government in perpetuating a potential cover up should absolutely definitely not be off limits to this enquiry, they should be scrutinised and examined - and you can bet that with a government majority that probably won't happen - whip or no whip. This is why a commission of investigation is the better way to go about this.


  • #48
    petronius
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    Enda destorys any trust and faith you can have in Irish democracy by his antics over the Banking Inquiry


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