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VRT Megathread - ALL VRT DISCUSSION IN HERE - Read First Post

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,222 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    Gah, if you don't like paying a tax in a country then move country.

    If you have a car in the Netherlands you'll pay BPM, same as VRT.

    However overall just over the border in Germany.

    If your Catholic in Germany they'll take 8% of your tax paid and send it straight to the Catholic Church.

    Also they basically take half your money and Health Insurance is about 3k / year.

    While cars may be cheap you end up with more money coming out of your pocket in taxes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Gophur


    Anyone care to volunteer to pay UK Council Tax? Instead of VRT?



    I doubt it!


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Gah, if you don't like paying a tax in a country then move country.

    If you have a car in the Netherlands you'll pay BPM, same as VRT.

    However overall just over the border in Germany.

    If your Catholic in Germany they'll take 8% of your tax paid and send it straight to the Catholic Church.

    Also they basically take half your money and Health Insurance is about 3k / year.

    While cars may be cheap you end up with more money coming out of your pocket in taxes.

    Probably not the place but how do they define if you're Catholic??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    Gophur wrote: »
    Anyone care to volunteer to pay UK Council Tax? Instead of VRT?
    Don't hold your breath - property tax is on its way in here too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Probably not the place but how do they define if you're Catholic??
    You tell them when you register, agnostics and aetheists are not liable for church tax.;)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Anan1 wrote: »
    You tell them when you register, agnostics and aetheists are not liable for church tax.;)

    So you pay less tax? Bit mad isn't it?

    Good in a way I 'spose, should weed out the non hardcore, or very poor catholics!:pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,222 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    Ush1 wrote: »
    So you pay less tax? Bit mad isn't it?

    Good in a way I 'spose, should weed out the non hardcore, or very poor catholics!:pac:

    Its as mad as VRT ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Anan1 wrote: »
    You tell them when you register, agnostics and aetheists are not liable for church tax.;)

    That only works int he short term, eventually God works through his list and smites you.:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Its as mad as VRT ...

    Not so much. VRT does make sense. Involving anything religious into law and taxes is just open to abuse. Nothing can be proven sure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,138 ✭✭✭snaps


    I thought being part of the Eu/Europe allowed purchasing of goods in any EU state and bringing them into your own home country? So if this is so how comes with cars you still have to pay a tax if you buy a car in another EU state when bringing it home?

    Seems Ireland is in the Eu when it wants to be?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,222 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    snaps wrote: »
    I thought being part of the Eu/Europe allowed purchasing of goods in any EU state and bringing them into your own home country? So if this is so how comes with cars you still have to pay a tax if you buy a car in another EU state when bringing it home?

    Seems Ireland is in the Eu when it wants to be?

    You can do that without a problem, i.e. you live and work in another EU state for more than 6 months and bring the car back and register it VRT free.

    Can't sell it for a year after that though.

    The EU does not have power over local taxation, if that was the case you'd be paying the same rate of income tax as the Germans.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Gophur


    snaps wrote: »
    I thought being part of the Eu/Europe allowed purchasing of goods in any EU state and bringing them into your own home country? So if this is so how comes with cars you still have to pay a tax if you buy a car in another EU state when bringing it home?

    Seems Ireland is in the Eu when it wants to be?

    It does allow you bring the car into Ireland, the registration of the car is a different matter and is subject to local law.

    Ireland, amongst others, has a derogation to allow it set its own vehicle registration charges, without being in breach of EU Law.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Involving anything religious into law and taxes is just open to abuse. Nothing can be proven sure.
    It's not really a tax, it's a discretionary contribution to a Church.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 21,238 CMod ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    Gophur wrote: »
    It does allow you bring the car into Ireland, the registration of the car is a different matter and is subject to local law.

    Ireland, amongst others, has a derogation to allow it set its own vehicle registration charges, without being in breach of EU Law.

    Exactly. Not having a flat fee per vehicle is unfair but it's not illegal - unless someone can actually post a link that contradicts the one I posted earlier. It would be great as a consumer if it were to be abolished, but to be honest, there are a whole pile of tax reforms I'd rather see looked at first.


  • Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭hurleronditch


    squod wrote: »
    2/ that's exactly whats happening

    No what is happening is that the government are incentivising people to buy new cars, to promote the irish car trade. We dont have a production industry but we do have a very large retail industry. This is the main goal of the scheme, and as far as that is concerned it has been wildly successful, both from keeping jobs and increasing the tax take. The fact that there is a knock on benefit for foreign industry is inconsequential. It is the raw material for the industry and that is always going to be the case. Many many industries are supported when the raw material is imported from elsewhere, in fact it is very rare you would find an industry that wouldnt have some external supply factors


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭ryanstewart


    -Chris- wrote: »
    I don't see them online, but the registration figures are here:
    http://www.cso.ie/Quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=TEA01.asp&TableName=Motor+Vehicles+Licensed+for+the+First+Time&StatisticalProduct=DB_TE


    Based on this I'd probably reduce my VRT guess for 2009 from €1bn to maybe less than €500m.
    So we're already €900m down on 2007, trying to find that revenue elsewhere, before we ban VRT altogether...

    The figure was €375 million - this was verified from Revenue's annual report 2009. A proposal has been sent to a number of party leaders on how to replace VRT. It's on the discussion board of the page if anyone bothered looking, and it is credible.

    Bear in mind the 1 billion euro figures for 07/08 we're part of the problem that's landed the country in this mess. It was all credit fuelled, and the likelihood is that these figures will never be attained again. Estimations for this year from Revenue suggest that this years take will be down a further €25million. The proposal put forward includes very conservative estimates throughout, and arrives at approx €400 million generated. I have received many replies from various politicians stating that they will investigate the proposal further, and estimate that the actual figure would be closer to €500 million a year, and provide a more stable tax base which wouldn't be as vulnerable to economic changes, ie falling from 1.4 billion to 375 million. It would be a constant.

    The part of VRT which I suggest is illegal, is it's enforcement which tramples over people's human rights - freedom of movement, freedom to earn a living, freedom to own goods. Our constitution supercedes any tax law, no matter how devious it was in it's conception. The EU are sitting on their hands on it as after 1992, it was re-branded as a national tax, over which the EU has no punitive authority. They don't like it but they're afraid of opening that can of worms.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    Just for convenience, here's the text of your proposal:
    http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=114939931865765&topic=73
    The following figures represent an alternative answer to VRT. They are based on approximations and are very conservative estimates. I believe that further research will show an estimated €500 million in revenue per year, which will be more stable and reliable than VRT, and more resistant to economic changes. It will also contribute safer, more affordable, more fuel efficient and greener motoring in Ireland

    1) A VRT amnesty offered for all foreign registered vehicles to allow owners to legally import their vehicles, with a handling fee for registration similar to that of commercial vehicles, followed by payment of Irish Road Tax on these vehicles. There should be a requirement to prove that a vehicle has been in the owner’s possession for a period of time prior to the announcement of the amnesty to prevent vehicles being purchased abroad en-masse. As there is a quarterly payment available for payment of road tax, this should allow affordable transfer of vehicles for all. Heavier penalties for non-payment of Road Tax for those who have registered their vehicles, but not paid Irish road tax should also be implemented, enforced by An Garda Siochana.

    2) After a period of 6 months, the removal of Vehicle Registration Tax, which should be replaced with a flat rate €100 Vehicle Registration Fee. This should be extended to all new registrations including previously exempt vehicles.

    3) Tax of 20 cent on each ticket sold imposed on all public, local authority and private pay and display car parks. 10% fine imposed on all fines issued for non-compliance with parking bye-laws, and clamping/tow-away release charges. This should not be extended to residential parking schemes.

    4) End of any Scrappage Scheme on new car sales, replaced with a rebate for used car sales to used car dealers on models first registered after 1st January 2008.

    5) Regulation of motor tax amounts. CC based calculations should remain as they are for vehicles registered pre-January 2008, as an incentive for buying a newer model.

    6) Increase of 4 cent per litre on Petrol and 2 cent per litre on Diesel

    NOTES AND RATIONALE

    1. Assuming 50000 vehicles are registered, paying on average €500 in road tax, plus €100 as a one-off registration fee, this would generate approximately €130,000,000 over the next 5 years in Road Tax. These vehicles are already on the road however road tax is currently being paid to a foreign government, mainly the UK. There would also be significant cost savings from less requirement of enforcement by Customs & Excise.
    2. Removal of VRT should see a huge increase in new vehicle sales, restored to near 2008 levels. Also, those previously considering a 2007/2008 model should now see themselves in a position to purchase a brand new car. Assuming 100,000 new vehicles are registered, this should see VAT receipts increase by approximately €175,000,000 to €340,000,000, and adding the registration fee this will add a further €14,800,000. It would also have the effect of modernising the fleet of vehicles currently on the road in Ireland, thus being more fuel efficient, and creating less CO2
    3. Figures not yet available, although assuming 100,000 pay and display spaces exist, and excluding added revenue from enforcement of non-compliance, this would generate approximately €8,000,000 per year. See calculation attached. I believe the number of spaces available for pay and display to be a lot higher than 100,000. This will effectively act as a localise congestion charge also, and hopefully discourage non-essential use of cars in built up areas..
    4. With the removal of VRT, all vehicles will automatically depreciate, and the only casualty in this would be used car dealers. As this industry is already in difficulty, it would be necessary to allow dealers time to wind down stocks, and allow a rebate on sales of cars taxable under newer CO2 based Road tax prices. It should have less of an impact on those who currently own a vehicle, as the depreciation will be across the board, and newer models will also depreciate, making their next purchase much more affordable. The rebate would be based upon a % rate of VRT already paid on the vehicle purchased, on models later than January 2008, to lessen the impact of depreciation on any remaining stock used vehicles.
    5. By leaving CC rates or road tax in place, this will a much greater incentive for those changing their car to buy a 2008 model or newer, as they will avail of cheaper road tax in most cases, and again helping to modernise the types of cars driven on Irish roads – safer, more fuel efficient transport.
    6. This measure would be required to slowly bring Ireland closer in line with EU objectives, by basing tax collected on usage, rather than engine emissions. A simple example is that a driver may own a 1.0 litre Renault Clio, and will fall into the cheaper tax bracket as it stands, whereas the owner of BMW X5 will fall into the higher bracket. If the BMW driver only does 5000 miles per year, and the Clio driver does 40000 miles per year, the Clio driver is obviously creating much higher CO2. This would regulate this part of the road tax, and should eventually lead to a usage-only based road tax. The initial rise would increase tax claimed by the exchequer by approximately €150,000,000. per year


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    OK, and here's my interpretation of it. Correct me if I misunderstood any of your points.


    1) Anyone who's been illegally driving a yellow reg in Ireland for more than a certain period gets an amnesty on the VRT they owe.
    Fines for driving without motor tax should be increased.


    2) VRT is entirely removed (no mention of phasing this at all).


    3) Parking charges will be increased by 20%, parking fines will be increased by 10%.


    4) I don't understand this point at all - you're giving a tax rebate to increase the tax take?
    People won't mind their car depreciating because new cars are cheaper too? What happens to their current car loans (and their increased negative equity)?


    5) This is what's already in place. I don't understand why it's mentioned in a propsal for change.


    6) Fuel costs will be increased for everyone.




    So, what I'm reading here is that
    a) anyone who bought and operated their car legally (new or second hand) will now see their second-hand value greatly reduced and the cost of running & parking thier car increased.

    b) anyone who's been driving illegally by avoiding VRT will get an amnesty, saving them thousands, and will be protected from the collapse of their second-hand value as they didn't buy at the inflated price.


    Do I understand that right? Seems a little selfish to me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    Also, I'm curious about this:

    You say here that the previous sales figures were fuelled by credit and are unlikely to return, and I dont think anyone would argue with that.
    Bear in mind the 1 billion euro figures for 07/08 we're part of the problem that's landed the country in this mess. It was all credit fuelled, and the likelihood is that these figures will never be attained again.

    Then in point 2 of your proposal you say that abolishing VRT would restore car sales figures to 2008 figures.

    You state later that the cost-to-change for anyone buying a new car would be roughly the same because new car prices would come down as well as the second-hand value of their own car.

    So, if the cost-to-change is roughly similar to what it's been previously, and the credit bubble's burst so there's fewer people able to get financing for a car purchase, how do you make the leap to the market recovering to 2008 levels?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    Anyone who's been illegally driving a yellow reg in Ireland for more than a certain period gets an amnesty on the VRT they owe.

    That's nuts. The people who drive yellow reg cars in Ireland are generally the ones who can afford the VRT. Most yellow reg cars I see are high end. Then again, looking at the govt's track record, the wealthy (bankers and developers) get all the tax breaks :(


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 301 ✭✭pieface_ie


    http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2009/06/14/story42434.asp

    Ireland facing EC proceedings over VRT charges
    Sunday, June 14, 2009 - By Kieron Wood
    The European Commission has begun proceedings against Ireland for infringing EU law by charging vehicle registration tax (VRT)o n vehicles imported from other EU member states.

    The Revenue Commissioners charge VRT based on a notional ‘‘open market selling price’’ of imported vehicles, rather than the actual purchase price.

    The open market price would typically be higher than the purchase price, resulting in higher VRT for the purchaser. VRT is charged at rates of up to 36 per cent, depending on a vehicle’s emissions.

    Second-hand car dealers have long been critical of the method of calculating the VRT rate. In 1998, Niall O’Dowling of Used Car Importers of Ireland (UCII) brought High Court proceedings against the ‘‘secretive and arbitrary’’ way the tax was imposed. He claimed there was unfair discrimination in favour of the importers of new vehicles.

    O’Dowling said that the distributors of new vehicles decided their open market selling prices, on which VRT was based. But the Revenue Commissioners calculated the open market price on second-hand vehicles, based on 25 unpublished ‘‘depreciation scales’’.

    The Revenue claimed the open market price was the price a car might reasonably be expected to sell for on the retail market, and said it administered the VRT system ‘‘objectively and impartially’’. In 2005, it was ordered to provide all the relevant documents to UCII. At a hearing in 2006,Miss Justice Mary Laffoy said: ‘‘Unfortunately, the enthusiasm for a speedy resolution of the matter, which obviously inspired that order, seems to have dissipated.”


    O’Dowling said last week: ‘‘We received a letter of confirmation from the EU Commission last week. The proceedings go back to a complaint registered in 1999. I would expect that the investigations are now at an advanced stage, given the time span involved.”

    A spokeswoman for the Directorate General for Taxation and Customs Union in the European Commission confirmed that the Commission had opened proceedings, but added: ‘‘No public information is available at the moment.”

    Total net receipts for VRT rose from €820 million in 2003 to a high of €1.4 billion in 2007. This year, VRT receipts have collapsed, with provisional figures of €240 million for the five months to May 31 - equivalent to an annual drop of almost 60 per cent.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    go on...


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    Amazing...just amazing...you can't even refer to the Commission actually saying it, just a newspaper article that says "no public info".

    If VRT is illegal, it would have taken a lot less than 18 years to get rid of it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    as I see it. to run this country requires a certain tax take from each of us. It doesnt matter a fig how you break down that per capita figure into different taxes, we need to pay the same total, so if you reduce or abolish one tax you have to increase one or more of the others.Therefore a pointless campaign typical of facebook and its ilk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭Theanswers


    But is it correct for the goverment to charge this tax? We all are members of the EU something which the goveremnt stressed about for so long, yet they themseleves enforce an act which goes against everything the EU stands for. Free movement of goods. I believe a car is a good. the VRT prevents this, as one cannot freely drive a foriegn registered car in this country not even enroute to vrt it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    [Pedantic] Theres no 1.0 litre Clio :) [Pedantic]


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    Theanswers wrote: »
    But is it correct for the goverment to charge this tax? We all are members of the EU something which the goveremnt stressed about for so long, yet they themseleves enforce an act which goes against everything the EU stands for. Free movement of goods. I believe a car is a good. the VRT prevents this, as one cannot freely drive a foriegn registered car in this country not even enroute to vrt it.
    There's a tax on magazines published outside the state too, it's not just VRT. Correct? Yes. Right? A matter of opinion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    Theanswers wrote: »
    But is it correct for the goverment to charge this tax? We all are members of the EU something which the goveremnt stressed about for so long, yet they themseleves enforce an act which goes against everything the EU stands for. Free movement of goods. I believe a car is a good. the VRT prevents this, as one cannot freely drive a foriegn registered car in this country not even enroute to vrt it.

    But by that logic you need to do away with motor tax too - all the foreign reg cars you brought over here wouldn't be correctly taxed. You couldn't then enforce motor tax laws on cars with ROI licence plates but let everyone in a UK, French or other registered car away with i?


  • Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Theanswers wrote: »
    as one cannot freely drive a foriegn registered car in this country not even enroute to vrt it.

    The law gives you till the end of the next working day after import to VRT it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9 mizzieme


    JHMEG wrote: »
    The should start a facebook campaign to allow Donegal rejoin the United Kingdom. I don't think I'd miss them ;)

    And we would miss you too not!!! you will never get the Galway tent back if the second biggest county in ireland went truly north. my issue as with many many others is that we see no value from the taxes paid- I drive a 99 roi car and pay my taxes and work very hard [no over inflated wages along the border - but then we don't have over inflated egos that need to be boosted by big southern salaries].

    But I looked at buying a car in NI early last year 2009 and didn't do it, but looked at the same make and model and year of car 2005 over a year later and the customs are charging the exact same fee as over a year ago even though north or south the car is of less value, I asked a customs man the reason and was told 'that's f
    g why' cant believe you guys think northern counties are the only ones paying vrt - every person who buys a car in ROI pays VRT.

    Compare this and tell me then it makes sense.
    top end
    NI Mercedes E220 class top of the range new £32,000 to buy same her in ROI if well over €57,000
    ordinary class of car
    Reanult magane or peugeot 308 - 11,000 in NI and €19,500- 21,000 now come on is it not time to get real!


This discussion has been closed.
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