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Lucifer and free will.

  • 11-11-2007 1:02pm
    #1
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭


    I remember being taught in school that the greatest gift God gave man was free will, something He had not even given His angels. The bit that I can't understand though is how could Lucifer decide to defy God if he didn't also have free will? Surely that means the angels also have free will? If so, what makes man special? Why did He bother creating us? Is free will a gift unique to man or not?


Comments

  • #2
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Hagar wrote: »
    I remember being taught in school that the greatest gift God gave man was free will, something He had not even given His angels. The bit that I can't understand though is how could Lucifer decide to defy God if he didn't also have free will? Surely that means the angels also have free will? If so, what makes man special? Why did He bother creating us? Is free will a gift unique to man or not?

    I don't know where that teaching came from:confused: Yes angels have free will. Its not unique to man, but it is a gift. What makes us special to the rest of life on earth is that we were made in Gods image.


  • #3
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I don't know where that teaching came from:confused:
    Christian Brothers' Education
    JimiTime wrote: »
    Yes angels have free will.
    Is there an ongoing incidence of sin among angels then?
    Are angels being condemned to Hell even now for sins committed as a result of having free will?
    Is it possible that over all eternity all angels will have fallen leaving God alone?


  • #4
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Hagar wrote: »
    If so, what makes man special? Why did He bother creating us? Is free will a gift unique to man or not?
    Hello Hagar, no angels have free will too. The question of what makes man special brings up a few interesting questions such as:-

    - Why did God create Angels AND man. Why not one or the other.
    - Why do we have to live on earth before going to heaven. The angels don't have to.
    - Are the angels also God's children?
    - Are the angels also created in the "image and likeness of God"?
    - Given that we have to suffer in this life and that we have to rely on faith,
    will we be rewarded with something that the angels don't have?
    - I know that the angels are superior to us in nature but does God's grace make us in any way superior to the angels?

    God bless,
    Noel.


  • #5
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    My take is that Angels have free will.

    At one point in time Satan rebelled against God and a whack of Angels decided to join Satan in his rebellion. The Angels exercised their free will at that point in time.

    Those that went with Satan were banished from Heaven and now all Angels, both those expelled and those who chose to stay with God, are involved in intense spiritual warfare for the hearts and soul of man.

    Angels who fall, we call demons, will not be forgiven, as they have seen the full glory of God and have rejected God.

    Man on the other hand can be forgiven.

    Angels act as God's messengers and our protectors.

    Our uniqueness comes with the fact we were created in teh image of God.


  • #6
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    My take is that Angels have free will.

    At one point in time Satan rebelled against God and a whack of Angels decided to join Satan in his rebellion. The Angels exercised their free will at that point in time.

    Those that went with Satan were banished from Heaven and now all Angels, both those expelled and those who chose to stay with God, are involved in intense spiritual warfare for the hearts and soul of man.

    Angels who fall, we call demons, will not be forgiven, as they have seen the full glory of God and have rejected God.

    Yes - one wonders how that's possible, and what it means for Heaven being "dwelling in the glory of God forever"...clearly it is possible to prefer other things, which in turn suggests that it cannot be perfect. Hmm.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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  • #7
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Yes - one wonders how that's possible, and what it means for Heaven being "dwelling in the glory of God forever"...clearly it is possible to prefer other things, which in turn suggests that it cannot be perfect. Hmm.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


    I think that what happened is that the fallen Angels (demons) desired to be in control, they lost out and now maybe instead of seeking forgiveness, whether or not available, they seek revenge against those whom God loves.

    Sounds like a very familiar action.

    We do something wrong, get caught, blame it on someone else, refuse to accept responsibility and get mad at the person who punishes us and seek revenge against them.


  • #8
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Angels who fall, we call demons, will not be forgiven, as they have seen the full glory of God and have rejected God.
    That's one of the points I was getting at. Since they will never be forgiven, the number of the fallen can never decrease and since more could fall their number can increase. Over eternity it is theoretically possible that every angel will fall leaving God totally alone.


  • #9
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Hagar wrote: »
    That's one of the points I was getting at. Since they will never be forgiven, the number of the fallen can never decrease and since more could fall their number can increase. Over eternity it is theoretically possible that every angel will fall leaving God totally alone.
    I don't think any more angels could fall. The good angels sided with Michael the Archangel and the bad ones with Lucifer so I think they've already made the grade and are not likely to rebel against God now especially now that they know the consequences. The probably didn't before the fall.


  • #10
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I don't think any more angels could fall. The good angels sided with Michael the Archangel and the bad ones with Lucifer so I think they've already made the grade and are not likely to rebel against God now especially now that they know the consequences. The probably didn't before the fall.

    I have to agree with kelly1 here. We don't know for certain as the Bible never speaks of it.

    But knowing full well the consequences of rebellion against God, I can't imagine anyone rebelling.


  • #11
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    I have to agree with kelly1 here. We don't know for certain as the Bible never speaks of it.

    But knowing full well the consequences of rebellion against God, I can't imagine anyone rebelling.


    Have to say, I'm a little uncomfortable with this reasoning. It seems like you are saying that they stay in line for fear of the consequences?


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  • #12
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Have to say, I'm a little uncomfortable with this reasoning. It seems like you are saying that they stay in line for fear of the consequences?

    You mean treating God like a super powerful mod?


  • #13
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Have to say, I'm a little uncomfortable with this reasoning. It seems like you are saying that they stay in line for fear of the consequences?

    Didn't mean it to come across that way.

    We don't have enough information. I could conject that Angels are just very content and happy with what they do in serving God and being in His presence that they wouldn't want to rebel.

    There are two excellent novels by Frank Peretti called: This Present Darkness and Piercing the Darkness. Both give Mr Peretti's insight into spiritual warfare. Very good reads as well.


  • #14
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Why did God create the angels that would rebel against him in the first place?


  • #15
    barfizz
    Registered Users Posts: 145 ✭✭barfizz


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Why did God create the angels that would rebel against him in the first place?

    Because he is omnipotent :D


  • #16
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Didn't mean it to come across that way.

    We don't have enough information. I could conject that Angels are just very content and happy with what they do in serving God and being in His presence that they wouldn't want to rebel.

    There are two excellent novels by Frank Peretti called: This Present Darkness and Piercing the Darkness. Both give Mr Peretti's insight into spiritual warfare. Very good reads as well.
    That would have been the conventional wisdom the day before the Fall, wouldn't it?

    If it's novels you want try Black Easter by James Blish. A seriously thought provoking concept.


  • #17
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Hagar wrote: »
    That would have been the conventional wisdom the day before the Fall, wouldn't it?

    If it's novels you want try Black Easter by James Blish. A seriously thought provoking concept.

    I would say not, as before the battle, no one knew what an existence without God would look like. They then found out.


  • #18
    JoeB-
    Registered Users Posts: 689 ✭✭✭JoeB-


    God created the 'bad' angels and the devil in order that he'd have someone to blame for the evil we experience all around us. If he hadn't created them he'd have to accept responsibility (for evil and suffering) himself, something he doesn't even consider.

    It is ridiculous to suggest that these angels saw God in all his glory and still choose to rebel, they were created with a mental illness as surely as we'd say that a human was mentally ill if he choose to cut off his arm. They were required to do what they did, it was all part of Gods plan.

    Incidentally, was God good before he created the universe and the angels? Good in comparison to what? To himself?

    I'd say that God can only be considered good in relation to the evil creatures he has created, a greater goodness can most definitely be imagined, a greater goodness which wouldn't require suffering and doubt. God most definitely can't be considered to be the maximum goodness possible, after all a God who required only an ounce less suffering would be a greater and gooder God.

    OP, I really like your point that the number of ('good') angels can only decrease, it is true of course, for exactly the reasons you outline. But God can always create a few more... he can even change history so that we don't notice he had to do this. Even the devil could be made unaware of the fact....

    Cheers


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