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Thornley

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,961 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    That isn't untrue though, is it? A couple of kicks either side of the post and we'd have beaten Wales and France (just as we'd have lost the Grand Slam on the other end of the equation).

    Indeed, but that's true of a huge number of test matches. Its a facile point. When small things go against you 3 years in a row there is a bigger problem.
    The point is that we've been consistently competitive under Kidney. There have been big performances every season - including every season since the Grand Slam.

    Consistency is the most glaring thing we haven't had under Kidney since that first season. Those intermittent "big performances" only serve to highlight the failings in the team in all the other games.
    But the argument begins to break down somewhat when it gets pushed out to ANY coach would be better, and the PREVIOUS coach was better.

    Very, very few people are claiming EOS was better. I'm certainly not. I'm saying the press turned on him due to very comparable results that Kidney is currently getting and for a shorter time period.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I had no idea what losing to Scotland at home in the 6N was like. Thanks to DK, I now do.


    This big issue here is that Thornley refuses to even admit there might be a problem. His writing reads like we're all overreacting and everything is hunky dory. His article post-6N was pathetic - there are thin lines between success and failure and on another day we could have come second. People are unfair on Kidney. People blame him for Ireland's supposed problems (again, pretending like the problems don't even exist, and if they did its certainly not Kidney's fault).

    That isn't untrue though, is it? A couple of kicks either side of the post and we'd have beaten Wales and France (just as we'd have lost the Grand Slam on the other end of the equation).

    The point is that we've been consistently competitive under Kidney. There have been big performances every season - including every season since the Grand Slam.

    The reasonable argument on here is that a more progressive coach would have us doing more, that selections and tactics are not optimal all the time. That's fine. But the argument begins to break down somewhat when it gets pushed out to ANY coach would be better, and the PREVIOUS coach was better.

    Is Thornley too far in favour, too patient? Sure. Is this forum too critical, too bullish on where this collection of players should be? Absolutely.

    The argument that the previous coach was better isn't the main debate. The main argument is that EOS had similar results, but was treated considerably differently.

    And where do we all think this collection of players should be?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    emmet02 wrote: »
    careful here - We had no depth because EOS didn't develop any depth.

    I think it's harsh to level that at EOS. He made efforts to develop depth but it was difficult when we were, to be blunt, operating with 2.5 provinces. Ulster finished third in their HEC group in 06/07 narrowly avoiding bottom spot and mid table in the ML. Connacht were second from bottom in the ML thanks to The Borders and third from bottom of their AC pool. They were poor to mediocre sides at best. We're now operating with close to 4 with the likes of McCarthy, Muldoon, Wilkinson and Loughney being options and Ulster being a genuine European contender. The provincial academy structure has started to produce and the current Irish set up can reap the benefits as it should. We've options coming out of our ears now simply due to the provinces doing their job.

    In the space of 12 months (11/05 - 11/06), EOS gave the following players a start against Tri-Nations sides:

    Front rows - Horan, Rory Best, John Hayes, Shane Byrne and Bryan Young.
    Locks - DOC, POC, MOK
    Back row - Neil Best, Leamy, Wallace, Easterby, JOC
    Half back - Stringer, Boss
    Back three - Trimble, S. Horgan, A. Horgan, Bowe, Murphy, Dempsey, Hickie.

    Some of that was due to injury but a good lot of it was rotation and for the sake of development. Young, Boss, both Bests, JOC and Trimble were all selected when other experienced, proven options were available for example. The standard of player simply wasn't there for Ireland to rotate really when it came to the crunch in 2007 but it wasn't for lack of trying. EOS could have and should have tried harder to develop a back up for ROG.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,021 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Tox56 wrote: »
    The argument that the previous coach was better isn't the main debate. The main argument is that EOS had similar results, but was treated considerably differently.

    And where do we all think this collection of players should be?

    He really, truly didn't though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,815 ✭✭✭✭emmet02


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    He really, truly didn't though.

    I presume you've missed Irish rugby since 2010 began?

    Possibly missed this post too.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79080674&postcount=184

    :bigheart:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    He really, truly didn't though.

    I'm genuinely confused. Under EOS we were consistently contending for winning the 6N: for three out of four years, we were one game from winning the GS. That's consistency. The silverware didn't come but it was a great period of results. We we were arguably the best team in Europe over a sustained period of several years, we were being widely tipped for a semi final at least going into a WC, we were competing with NZ in their back yards. We did it all playing some of the best, most complete rugby seen internationally in the past decade. 2004 - 2007 was the best sustained spell for Irish national rugby in my life time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    He really, truly didn't though.

    Well, I can only repeat what was said above, and link you to this comparison of their last 2 years, with extremely similar records.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    The below is taken from Wikipedia so take from that what you want.

    6nations.jpg

    Consistency is one thing I take. Warren Gatland was in charge for two seasons and his record was P10 W7, Kidneys is P20 W13 D 1 and EOS is P35 W24.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    The Welsh record is the most eye catching. Remarkable that they're the most successful side there in terms of silverware but have a negative points difference. I miss the days when they couldn't buy a win against us. Cardiff was a more secure victory for us than Dublin!


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Infact, I just compared the Six Nations records of Kidney and EOS in their first 4 years:

    EOS:

    Played 20 Won 15 Lost 5

    Kidney:

    Played 20 Won 13 Lost 6 Draw 1


    Amazing how EOS never won a Grand Slam, we got better under him post-2004 and still couldn't do it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 36,021 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    GerM wrote: »
    I'm genuinely confused. Under EOS we were consistently contending for winning the 6N: for three out of four years, we were one game from winning the GS. That's consistency. The silverware didn't come but it was a great period of results. We we were arguably the best team in Europe over a sustained period of several years, we were being widely tipped for a semi final at least going into a WC, we were competing with NZ in their back yards. We did it all playing some of the best, most complete rugby seen internationally in the past decade. 2004 - 2007 was the best sustained spell for Irish national rugby in my life time.

    You play to win the game.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,961 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    You play to win the game.

    Grand so, we haven't been doing that for 3 years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    You play to win the game.

    Which Kidney has not been doing with any consistency for at least two years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    You play to win the game.

    You best tell the current set up so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭TomLamp


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Infact, I just compared the Six Nations records of Kidney and EOS in their first 4 years:

    EOS:

    Played 20 Won 15 Lost 5

    Kidney:

    Played 20 Won 13 Lost 4 Draw 1


    Amazing how EOS never won a Grand Slam, we got better under him post-2004 and still couldn't do it.

    What?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    TomLamp wrote: »
    Tox56 wrote: »
    Infact, I just compared the Six Nations records of Kidney and EOS in their first 4 years:

    EOS:

    Played 20 Won 15 Lost 5

    Kidney:

    Played 20 Won 13 Lost 4 Draw 1


    Amazing how EOS never won a Grand Slam, we got better under him post-2004 and still couldn't do it.

    What?

    Hmm you're right hold on


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    GerM wrote: »
    The Welsh record is the most eye catching. Remarkable that they're the most successful side there in terms of silverware but have a negative points difference. I miss the days when they couldn't buy a win against us. Cardiff was a more secure victory for us than Dublin!

    Yes I remember in the 90s the Welsh game would often be our only win of the campaign.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    It was Lost 6, not 4.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,742 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    The point is that we've been consistently competitive under Kidney.

    When!? We've placed 3rd in the last 3 6Ns. Where is our competitiveness? If we play to win and are not winning then we're not competitive.....:confused:
    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    There have been big performances every season - including every season since the Grand Slam.

    The odd big performance here and there is not enough. Every performance should be a big one.

    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Is Thornley too far in favour, too patient? Sure. Is this forum too critical, too bullish on where this collection of players should be? Absolutely.

    So you don't think it's reasonable to believe that Ireland should be winning more 6 Nations and should have at least made the SF in the RWC? No one is talking about winning every game. All we expect is that a team that has players from 5 different HEC wins over the last few years should be doing better. And that they aren't is frustrating.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    Here's Gerry's take on Deccie's team selection..

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0607/1224317443549.html


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    Here's Gerry's take on Deccie's team selection..

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0607/1224317443549.html

    I've been offline all day (thanks UPC) so this may have been commented upon, but Thornley clearly had the team before it was made public. When the team was announced publicly at 2am, the final decision had been made on Ross not playing but Gerry's column was written when the final call had yet to be made, however he still knew the other 14 names...


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,961 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I've been offline all day (thanks UPC) so this may have been commented upon, but Thornley clearly had the team before it was made public. When the team was announced publicly at 2am, the final decision had been made on Ross not playing but Gerry's column was written when the final call had yet to be made, however he still knew the other 14 names...

    I imagine a few newspapers were given the team beforehand so they could print it in Thursdays newspapers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,175 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    That's just nonsense. The only irreplaceable player we have is BOD and one of his best ever seasons was in 09 when he almost single handedly dragged Ireland to the GS. For every great player we lost, we've gained others. Not always in the same position, but Kidney has better props and a better backrow then EOS ever had.

    And all this is still missing the point, that whether one was better then the other its a very narrow margin. Ireland were exceptional in the 07 6N, played some spellbinding rugby. It took one poor season for people in the media to want EOS gone. We've now endured 3 fairly middling seasons in the row (all of which had comparatively poor 6N performances) and not a peep.

    Sorry, thats just nonsense. Very few players arrived the fully fledged international finished article and I wouldn't dismiss the kind of class and experience that the likes of Denis Hickie & Shane Horgan would have over Zebo & McFadden who are only learning the ropes. Are you trying to claim that D'Arcy for instance is as good as he was back in 2004 (when he was player of the 6Ns). Most of all, Cian Healy didn't arrive as a fully qualified international prop 2 years ago. Rory Best used get the yips regularly, Ross is injury prone, POC mostly injured over the last 2 seasons, Mal O'Kelly was a fairly classy lock (much better than what will be starting on Saturday), POM > Simon Easterby? (maybe in 2/3 years time), SOB > David Wallace? (maybe in 2/3 years time), Heaslip off form, I could go on and on ... I'm sure you'll get my drift.

    Eddie's team peaked around 06-07 - after that it went rapidly downhill and Kidney is now trying to pick up the pieces.

    PS - Eddie survived a pasting around 04-05 season. As Assistant & Head Coach, Eddie has had about 10 years with that group of players before he resigned in '08. Kidney has had a little over 3 years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Kidney is "picking up the pieces"??? Given the depth and quality of talent available I'm stunned you can possibly say that


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,742 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    jm08 wrote: »
    Eddie's team peaked around 06-07 - after that it went rapidly downhill and Kidney is now trying to pick up the pieces.

    Picking up the pieces!? EOS had nothing to do with us going from a GS winning team to being consistantly average. Pull the other one.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,175 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Picking up the pieces!? EOS had nothing to do with us going from a GS winning team to being consistantly average. Pull the other one.....

    Have you ever even tried to compare the starting team 2 years ago to the one starting on Saturday.

    Do you honestly think Healy was as good as he is now (and getting even better) than he was for his first 10-15 caps?

    Do you think Fergus McFadden (or whoever D'Arcy's replacement is going to be) is as good as D'Arcy was around 05-07?

    How would you rate Sexton's first 6ns or his 2nd 6Ns? Has he improved anything since then?

    Do you think all those players mentioned have not improved one iota in the last 2 years?

    Do you think BOD at the moment is as good as he was in 04-05? Do you think Simon Zebo/Craig Gilroy/Andrew Trimble is as good a player as Denis Hickie or Luke Fitz was?

    Do you think Fergus McFadden/Dave Kearney at the moment is as good as Shane Horgan was?

    I'd love to get your comparative ratings of all these players.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    jm08 wrote: »
    molloyjh wrote: »
    Picking up the pieces!? EOS had nothing to do with us going from a GS winning team to being consistantly average. Pull the other one.....

    Have you ever even tried to compare the starting team 2 years ago to the one starting on Saturday.

    This is where you go wrong, the starting team on Saturday is hugely different from what we've seen throughout Kidney's time as coach, due to a combo of injuries/experimentation.

    McFadden and Zebo are the wings, Kidney has had the likes of Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Fitzgerald available in this position for most of his tenure.

    Similar story with having Ross available over Fitzpatrick, POC over Tuohy, Ferris over POM and the like.

    If you're going to assess the difference between the talent EOS and Kidney had available in their time, Saturday is the last place you should start, but I'm sure you know that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    This was Kidneys 4th 6 Nations. Let's compare the team that started for us against France in EOS' 4th 6 Nations to this season?

    2005
    Murphy, Dempsey, O'Driscoll, Maggs, Hickie, O'Gara, Stringer, Foley, O'Connor, Easterby, O'Connell, O'Kelly, Hayes, Byrne, Corrigan
    2012
    Kearney, Bowe, Earls, D'Arcy, Trimble, Sexton, Murray, Heaslip, O'Brien, Ferris, O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Ross, Best, Healy

    This years team is far better. Even with O'Driscoll and Fitzgerald out injured.

    So after 4 years as coach, O'Sullivan finished 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd. Missing out on two Grand Slams by one match. Kidney had his Grand Slam then finished 2nd (two losses), 3rd (two losses) and then obviously this year he only managed his 2 wins against Scotland/Italy.

    This despite the fact Kidney has European Champions throughout his team. EOS had one, David Humphreys on the bench. EOS had 2 quarter finalist teams in 04-05, both knocked out conclusively. Kidney had 1 quarter finalist, 1 finalist and the European champions.

    Kidney this season had Irelands joint-worst 6 Nations win total since the competition was converted. The last time we won this number of games it was deemed so bad that EOS resigned, obviously Kidneys standards are a little lower than that as he has continued.

    Ireland improved consistently under EOS right up until 2007. Kidney has had the opposite effect.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Exactly. I'm not sure you're getting the point people are making here. No one is saying EOS was a far superior coach. We're saying that there's feck all between them, yet the press (Thornley being a prime example) are treating DK completely differently now to how they treated EOS then.

    I only posted the stats because people posted DK stats

    It was simply a way of comparing them and showing that overall there is very little difference in the win ratios etc despite some of the comments

    I made no judgements or opinions on either coach

    My point is that statistics only go so far as a guide to rating anyone. As people have pointed out, some games Ireland did not have a full team etc
    However, skewing the stats to suit your agenda doesn't sit right with me and I reacted to that

    The main issue at present for me is not simply statistics or win ratios, it is about performance and that for me is the main issue DK has to answer at present


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    A good article as usual from Tony Ward this morning.

    http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/tony-ward-pressure-on-kidney-to-give-kiwis-real-test-3132420.html

    "And, yet, there is pressure on Declan Kidney to deliver. Scotland's humbling of the Wallabies, our U-21s' magnificent victory over Junior World Cup hosts South Africa and Leinster's Heineken Cup triumph all add to the sense of expectation."
    --
    "However, any capitulation would see the Irish management team very much in the firing line. We're not quite at make-or-break time, but the next three Saturdays will have a massive bearing on what happens in the future."


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