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2700s being withdrawn, possibly sold off?

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    water under the bridge at this stage. The scenario has changed, it makes sense to use the 22000s intensively and get rid of older stock that needs costly overhaul.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    corktina wrote: »
    water under the bridge at this stage. The scenario has changed, it makes sense to use the 22000s intensively and get rid of older stock that needs costly overhaul.

    yeh, and when they need overhall get rid of them to and buy more, fantastic idea. maybe when they need a bit of Maintenance we should get rid to? or maybe they should just run them into the ground and give them the bare Maintenance? where does it stop?

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    It is unfortunate that the 2700s are being withdrawn, no doubt ahead of their time. While still a useful unit, the likelihood of overseas buyers seems unlikely due to their gauge, multiple unit operating issues (decoupling) and the fact that they are at a life stage where they are in need of refurbishment.

    It does seem wasteful that the latter 22k batch was ordered, and has prompted the demise of useful trains ahead of their time. That said the operational flexibilities and cost savings of common fleet dmu operation are pretty compelling.

    I did a thesis on Irish rail for my masters and interviewed a number of senior management and unions for the report. I am a mkiii fan and raised the issue of wastefulness with them on this, 8200 darts and possible 27 withdrawal ( interviewed them last summer )

    The cost savings and flexibility of a fleet wide 22k / 26 / 28 / 29 is unbelievable when you consider relative to loco hauled. Also from a driver training pov and economies of scale re parts it is a bulletproof business case. From an accountancy pov (and not a wastefulness or ethical one) the mkiiis were depreciated to nothing and the 27Ks have served 15 of their 20 years, so the loss to IR is minimal.

    Wider 22k operation should offer further cost savings, and IR need to achieve this against a backdrop of falling subsidies and passenger numbers ( the 2010 annual report does not even give pax nos (unprecedented) - I'd speculate these are even lower than the poor 2009 figures)

    Anyway, to bring an end to this long and winding post, I would hazard that the mkivs and DDs will be next to be pulled and replaced with icrs - i have no affiliation with ir nor no inside knowledge but the 201 is a loco they're looking to kill and notwithstanding their push pull capability they guzzle the gas, wreck per way and crucially aren't spo like railcars...
    Wouldn't be surprised to see a gradual further rollout of 22k on cork services, and introduction to Belfast while quietly DDs and mkivs move to the next available siding for an extended sabbatical ...

    Sorry for going on and on ... Cheers !!


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,655 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Anyway, to bring an end to this long and winding post, I would hazard that the mkivs and DDs will be next to be pulled and replaced with icrs - i have no affiliation with ir nor no inside knowledge but the 201 is a loco they're looking to kill and notwithstanding their push pull capability they guzzle the gas, wreck per way and crucially aren't spo like railcars...
    Wouldn't be surprised to see a gradual further rollout of 22k on cork services, and introduction to Belfast while quietly DDs and mkivs move to the next available siding for an extended sabbatical ...

    I think the Mark4 will be converted to operate with twin power cars which will allow to operate at 125mph but track work would be needed. If Irish Rail didn't cut corners when they ordered the Mark 4 first then they would not be loco hauled. The DTV can be converted but a second power car would need to be ordered.

    Thwy would need to order more ICR to replace and it cost millions and it would take years for them to begin service. I can't see them getting money to order new trains from the Goverment anyway.

    Then NIR and IR could'nt agree on new trains and then the financing from both sides of the border.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    The one line which will definitely see an upgrade in speed is the Northern Line since the 22s are faster than the 28s/29s, but will have longer dwell times on commuter services with the end doors. C4Ks might have been a better call.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    dowlingm wrote: »
    The one line which will definitely see an upgrade in speed is the Northern Line since the 22s are faster than the 28s/29s, but will have longer dwell times on commuter services with the end doors. C4Ks might have been a better call.
    Faster in acceleration or just in top speed?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    I think the Mark4 will be converted to operate with twin power cars which will allow to operate at 125mph but track work would be needed. If Irish Rail didn't cut corners when they ordered the Mark 4 first then they would not be loco hauled. The DTV can be converted but a second power car would need to be ordered.

    Thwy would need to order more ICR to replace and it cost millions and it would take years for them to begin service. I can't see them getting money to order new trains from the Goverment anyway.

    Then NIR and IR could'nt agree on new trains and then the financing from both sides of the border.

    we've no money, so what we've got, we are stuck with.It will be a long time before lines are upgraded to 125mph operation ,IE are still upgrading to 100 mph! I don't think you'll see power cars for the mk4s either. I could well imagine them using 22000s fior the faster services and using the 201s for slower services where they will do less harm


  • Registered Users Posts: 912 ✭✭✭Hungerford


    CIE wrote: »
    Faster in acceleration or just in top speed?

    Faster top speed - the 29000s have a maximum speed of 75 mph while the 2200s have a maximum of 100 mph. By comparison, the C3Ks and C4Ks used by NIR have a maximum speed of 90 mph. I have a suspicion that the C4Ks have the quickest acceleration of any of them.

    For reference, the maximum speed on the Northern Line is 90mph.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Hungerford wrote: »

    For reference, the maximum speed on the Northern Line is 90mph.
    The Enterprise beyond Newry hardly reaches speeds of over 60 :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,024 ✭✭✭✭Oscar Bravo


    2820+2819+2806+2805 went from Athlone to Ballina today passing through Manulla Junction just after 1030am.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭shamwari


    dowlingm wrote: »
    The one line which will definitely see an upgrade in speed is the Northern Line since the 22s are faster than the 28s/29s, but will have longer dwell times on commuter services with the end doors. C4Ks might have been a better call.

    I agree with this. The 22K's are an intercity train and their configuration is perfectly fine when fulfilling that role. Using them as a mainstay commuter train on northern and western is IMHO a very bad idea. The don't accelerate with any notable difference compared to regular commuter railcars, and their top speed advantage will never be realised in stop / start situations and on lines where running speeds are typically way below their max anyway.

    Any more diagrams worked with 22k's will also see the likes of the issues we had with Cravens and MkIII's in the early noughties when it took an eternity for people to fight their way on board with crowded isles and vestibules, and ultimately a slippage in journey times.

    Whilst probably mentioned already here, the only reason one set is rostered on the northern is to allow its maintenance in Drogheda, and it makes sense to use it in "revenue earning mode" when running it to / from there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    They are also using some 22000's on the maynooth commuter route which while nice for the people who manage to get a seat is not very good for the people left standing at the doorways and between carriages because there is no room to stand anywhere else. The 29000's are far better on journeys to maynooth mullingar drogheda Dundalk and Wicklow where there is no benefit gained by using the 22000's.

    The 22000's are intercity stock and have proven to be able to keep to a timetable better than the mark4 trains but stopping every few miles is not what they were built for. They are very comfortable at speed even on poorer lines and would be perfect on express commuter services to Longford and Dundalk stopping at only a few stations.

    Using tem on other commuter routes is like Dublin bus using luxury 35seater coaches on the 145 route at rush-hour, just a badly thought out idea!


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,024 ✭✭✭✭Oscar Bravo


    2722/19 on the Ballina Branch today


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,024 ✭✭✭✭Oscar Bravo


    2800s Ready for action in Ballina


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    2800s Ready for action in Ballina
    Why didn't they block off the pass through's in these instead of the 2700's :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,817 ✭✭✭Poxyshamrock


    Have seen the 22ks in action on the Ennis-Limerick line a few times in the past two weeks, is this a regular occurrence?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,465 ✭✭✭highlydebased


    Have seen the 22ks in action on the Ennis-Limerick line a few times in the past two weeks, is this a regular occurrence?

    Some links now seem to be always operated by 22k's, evening ones in particular. Some of them go through to Limk Jctn.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Is that 22 the one that operates the Nenagh branch in the mornings maybe? If another one was available I think they should look at changing the Limerick-Thurles(ECS)-Thurles-Limerick to 22 since it would be able to take advantage of the higher limits on the stretch from/to the Junction.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Captain Chaos


    Why didn't they block off the pass through's in these instead of the 2700's :confused:

    Because there was underlying issue with the 2700s auto couplers uncoupling unintentionally and is a safety hazard if people happen to be passing between units and it happens to uncouple in transit. The 26s and 28s don't have that fault. The 27s are built by Alstom like those other heaps of junk that are the 8200 DART units that are reported to be sold off this year. The 26 and 28 are built by Mitsu Tokyu Car like the 85xx DARTs and are very good performers all round.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Have seen the 22ks in action on the Ennis-Limerick line a few times in the past two weeks, is this a regular occurrence?
    With the amount of passengers on this route they should remove the intermediate carriage. :p


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,483 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I would imagine that as the remaining 22k sets are commissioned the Limerick/Limerick Junction shuttles will switch to 22k operation, and that would include the Thurles morning commuter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I would imagine that as the remaining 22k sets are commissioned the Limerick/Limerick Junction shuttles will switch to 22k operation, and that would include the Thurles morning commuter.
    One would hope so, and not that one would be put on the Parity Of Esteem Express instead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,284 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    I've seen 2x3 car sets at Tara Street sometime last week heading from Westland Row to Drogheda Arriving in Tara Street at 8:13pm.

    I seen it while waiting on platform 2 waiting for a DART to Greystones.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Captain Chaos


    I've seen 2x3 car sets at Tara Street sometime last week heading from Westland Row to Drogheda Arriving in Tara Street at 8:13pm.

    I seen it while waiting on platform 2 waiting for a DART to Greystones.

    Yeah, the 22s are now regular for Dundalk services. During last week it was either 2x3 or a 6 car highcap set working the service. During the afternoon it is sometimes a single 3 car set.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,024 ✭✭✭✭Oscar Bravo


    2717 on the Manulla-Ballina service today


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,024 ✭✭✭✭Oscar Bravo


    The gangway corridors will also be removed from the 2800s,just like the 2700s. There is 1 set of 2800s in the Paintshop atm.The same livery as the 2700s got will be applied.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Captain Chaos


    The gangway corridors will also be removed from the 2800s,just like the 2700s. There is 1 set of 2800s in the Paintshop atm.The same livery as the 2700s got will be applied.

    The 26s are already in the IC livery so makes sense for the 28s to get it too but removing the gangways, why. The 26s got to hang on to theirs even though they mainly work in pairs anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,316 ✭✭✭Mycroft H


    Now that I think of it, its at least 18 months since I seen one on the maynooth line. And even then they were relegated to late evening services. They were bloody loud inside.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    BX 19 wrote: »
    Now that I think of it, its at least 18 months since I seen one on the maynooth line. And even then they were relegated to late evening services. They were bloody loud inside.
    Worse again if your at the cab end on the WRC, it can't go five minutes without blasting the horn. :p


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,316 ✭✭✭Mycroft H


    Worse again if your at the cab end on the WRC, it can't go five minutes without blasting the horn. :p

    Maybe its the 12 year old in me, but I love the sound of the train horn :D

    The one on the DARTS is a bit weedy though.


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