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Killarney Cross over Crucifix

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245

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  • Options
    #32
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    kylith wrote: »
    Very few 6 year olds would play those games, but that's how old I was when one of my classmates started having nightmares because of the crucifix in the classroom.

    ETA: Animal/person mashups are no concern to children, in my experience. Stories like Beauty and the Beast and the Frog Prince introduce that concept early in life.


    "soldiers" was a very common game among the boys here. Maybe the boys where you grew up preferred stories and brushing their hair?
    lol! So no child would be afraid of a man with a Goats head....otay!


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    #33
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    What's a standard crucifix?


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    #34
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    I didn't write anything of the sort and you know I didn't. If you have trouble comprehending what I'm expressing, ask me to clarify it but don't try and paraphrase my words to suit your own agenda. It is disingenuous and disrespectful.

    :rolleyes:

    You are trying to play down the cost to the tax payer
    it will not cost the Council more than they spend on teabags in a week.

    It shouldn't cost the tax payer a penny as it shouldn't be happening, just like tey should not have symbols for Islamic or Jewish faiths, if people want to express their religion a government building is not the place...that's what your home and church's are for.

    Its religions interference in the government that has gotten us where we are in Ireland and its not been a pretty journey. They should very much remain separate.


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    #35
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    lazygal wrote: »
    What's a standard crucifix?

    A bit better than a sub-standard but less perfect than an above-standard crucifix.


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    #36
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Cabaal wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    You are trying to play down the cost to the tax payer



    It shouldn't cost the tax payer a penny as it shouldn't be happening, just like tey should not have symbols for Islamic or Jewish faiths, if people want to express their religion a government building is not the place...that's what your home and church's are for.

    Its religions interference in the government that has gotten us where we are in Ireland and its not been a pretty journey. They should very much remain separate.

    Play down what cost? There are many council workers whose occupation is to maintain Council buildings.

    Cost of Crucifix - 10 euro?
    Cost of nail and time spent hanging crucifix - 5 euro?
    Cost of Atheist reaction and 'arguments' - priceless.


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    #37
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Play down what cost? There are many council workers whose occupation is to maintain Council buildings.

    Cost of Crucifix - 10 euro?
    Cost of nail and time spent hanging crucifix - 5 euro?
    Cost of Atheist reaction and 'arguments' - priceless.

    I think the council could easily clear this up in seconds,

    Take the crucifix,
    Take the nail,
    Bash said nail into the wall,
    Hang crucifix upside down.

    Councillor still gets to see his pretty crucifix and atheists are happy that no "religious" symbols are on show :D


  • Options
    #38
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    lazygal wrote: »
    What's a standard crucifix?

    google image search comes back with

    Crucifix.jpg

    Thats pretty disturbing!
    Lets hope he doesn't mean that....


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    #39
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    The standard crucifix is not gore. Can you stop trying to put words in my mouth? A point was made that having a crucifix in a room (where no children will probably enter) is somehow exposing children to violence and that point was countered with examples.

    I agree that children shouldn't be exposed to inappropriate Media -especially that of a sexual nature.

    But you said that a statue of Baphomet wouldn't be 'family friendly'. If no children are going to see it then what harm would having a statue of a goat-headed man in the council chambers do?


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    #40
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    He isn't attempting to prevent atheists, ... having a representation of their faith on the wall. (
    28228-Thats-Unpossible-Ralph-wiggum-PcuI.jpeg

    Seriously, stop peddling the lie that atheism is a religion. Not believing in something does not a religion make, just as not collecting somehting does not a hobby make.


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    #41
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Brian Shanahan wrote: »
    Not believing in something does not a religion make, just as not collecting somehting does not a hobby make.

    Not following any sport is a sport...apparently :pac:


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    #42
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    pauldla wrote: »
    Allegedly died. It is conjecture; there is no proof. :p

    To use a joke from one of the Terry Pratchett novels, we don't even "habe ass his corpse ass".


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    #43
    Panrich
    Registered Users Posts: 3,763 ✭✭✭Panrich


    It's typical bullying behaviour. Johnny has to get his way. The fact that 1/3rd of the councillors voted against this shows that consideration for others or consensus were not on this guys agenda.


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    #44
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,867 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Ladies or Gentlemen, if you suspect illegal activity, contact the Gardai or your Solicitor. Or Atheism Ireland

    But earlier you said
    Atheism Ireland have too much time on their hands.
    so in other words they should STFU about it.

    Make up your mind...

    If having a crucifix on the wall in a political chamber was so harmless, why do it at all?
    It is there as a symbol of domination of the roman catholic church's followers over those of other and no faiths. That other points of view are unwelcome and will not be tolerated. This is exactly as intended.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #45
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Brian Shanahan wrote: »
    28228-Thats-Unpossible-Ralph-wiggum-PcuI.jpeg

    Seriously, stop peddling the lie that atheism is a religion. Not believing in something does not a religion make, just as not collecting somehting does not a hobby make.

    Given the context of the sentence, I thought the point and gist would have clear and obvious. Obviously not...


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    #46
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    ninja900 wrote: »
    But earlier you said

    so in other words they should STFU about it.

    Make up your mind...

    If having a crucifix on the wall in a political chamber was so harmless, why do it at all?
    It is there as a symbol of domination of the roman catholic church's followers over those of other and no faiths. That other points of view are unwelcome and will not be tolerated. This is exactly as intended.

    Yes, they should shut up or spend their time doing something less wasteful. (Join a CE scheme and tidy up their locality?) Water charges, property tax, rising electricity rates, people unable to afford health insurance but that great bastion of humanity AI - not to be confused with Artificial Intelligence - are going to the Equality Authority because of...

    http://www.radiokerry.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/KCC-chamber.jpg


    The singularly most offensive and vile picture I have ever linked to... be forewarned


  • Options
    #47
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    bumper234 wrote: »

    Take the crucifix,
    Take the nail,
    Bash said nail into the wall,
    Hang crucifix upside down.

    I would advise this approach:

    Drive the nail with hammer. (Safer to screw-in)
    Take the crucifix.
    Hang crucifix.

    I didn't think anyone could get such a simple task wrong.


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    #48
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Yes, they should shut up or spend their time doing something less wasteful. (Join a CE scheme and tidy up their locality?) Water charges, property tax, rising electricity rates, people unable to afford health insurance but that great bastion of humanity AI - not to be confused with Artificial Intelligence - are going to the Equality Authority because of...

    http://www.radiokerry.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/KCC-chamber.jpg


    The singularly most offensive and vile picture I have ever linked to... be forewarned

    Water charges, property tax, local environment; all issues for the democratically elected representatives of the good people of Kerry to discuss, debate, consider, in the hope of making their corner of the world a better place.

    Instead, they're voting on crucifixes. Earlier on this year we had Mayo (?) county council praying to make the roads safer. Such is Ireland in the 21st Century, it seems.

    Now one could argue that this is a democracy, and they are meeting a need of the population, but I would counter that We The People have a democratic right to scrutinize the words and deeds of elected representatives; and if I lived in Kerry, my first impulse would be to contact this particular fellow and ask him if he could not think of any more pressing issue that getting a crucifix hung up in the Council Chamber. Perhaps it's me, but I am suspicious of politicians who play the religion card.


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    #49
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Water charges, property tax, rising electricity rates, people unable to afford health insurance....

    But by far the VAST MAJORITY of these increases and tax's you are bitching about were decided by good catholic people in this country, but that can't be surely?

    They have fine "christian values" that would mean they would never do anything to make life difficult for their fellow Catholics?

    I guess the argument for having a cross in Kerry cc made sense,
    “In light of our Christian Faith and the strong Christian values contained within our Constitution, that Kerry County Council erect a Crucifix on the wall of the new Council Chamber.”

    After all those fine christian value's have worked well in Ireland so far after all,

    Thousands of women treated like dirt, hundreds of baby's dead, thousands of babys sold off, thousands of children raped, whole sections of looked down on and classed as illegal.

    Yep, it would be good to continue with those fine values.......the type of value's that still class much of our society as "unnatural".


  • Options
    #50
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Given the context of the sentence, I thought the point and gist would have clear and obvious. Obviously not...

    Yes the point was obvious, you were trying to equate a lack of belief with a belief, in order to bring those you oppose down to your level.


  • Options
    #51
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    pauldla wrote: »
    Now one could argue that this is a democracy, and they are meeting a need of the population,

    And anyone arguing that would be wrong, because the fact is that despte what the census says, functionally Ireland is not a christian country. The majority of people don't go near churches except for christenings, confirmations, marriages and funerals, and to be honest only for the religious getting free reign in schools most wouldn't go for the first three either.

    Of the c. 30% the rcc consider committed catholics (i.e. those they know are going to mass), a full tenth don't believe god exists (the definition of atheism), and this is the minority that gives more than two ****s about the church, among the majority the lack of belief is probably going to be a lot higher.

    The clergy are held in universal contempt, there is no vocations for the priesthood or the nunnery. What we are seeing is a religion at the beginnings of collapse, yet people are still unsure enough to not drop the comfort blanket of calling themselves catholic, but on the other hand share virtually none of the beliefs or mores with church doctrine.


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    #52
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    pauldla wrote: »
    Water charges, property tax, local environment; all issues for the democratically elected representatives of the good people of Kerry to discuss, debate, consider, in the hope of making their corner of the world a better place.

    Instead, they're voting on crucifixes. Earlier on this year we had Mayo (?) county council praying to make the roads safer. Such is Ireland in the 21st Century, it seems.

    Now one could argue that this is a democracy, and they are meeting a need of the population, but I would counter that We The People have a democratic right to scrutinize the words and deeds of elected representatives; and if I lived in Kerry, my first impulse would be to contact this particular fellow and ask him if he could not think of any more pressing issue that getting a crucifix hung up in the Council Chamber. Perhaps it's me, but I am suspicious of politicians who play the religion card.

    They voted on a crucifix- past tense. I assume they are voting, talking working on other matters too (I don't read their minutes) but this one past issue is the one that has been given National attention. At his behest? No. Atheism Ireland is giving the crucifix more attention than the Councillor ever did/could. Sounds like an own-goal but keep kicking...


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    #53
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Cabaal wrote: »
    But by far the VAST MAJORITY of these increases and tax's you are bitching about were decided by good catholic people in this country, but that can't be surely?

    They have fine "christian values" that would mean they would never do anything to make life difficult for their fellow Catholics?

    I guess the argument for having a cross in Kerry cc made sense,



    After all those fine christian value's have worked well in Ireland so far after all,

    Thousands of women treated like dirt, hundreds of baby's dead, thousands of babys sold off, thousands of children raped, whole sections of looked down on and classed as illegal.

    Yep, it would be good to continue with those fine values.......the type of value's that still class much of our society as "unnatural".

    Incorrect. I'm not bitching about any of those things. I did write that people have more pressing concerns (paraphrase). Do I have to write my statements twice so people will understand what I actually write, or is it that in order to vilify me, falsehood must be employed?

    One one hand, people say that the majority of Irish Citizens aren't Catholic in the strict sense of the word but when it suits the agenda, Ireland is a Catholic Country and the politicians are Catholic. (I think one user who 'liked' this post gives such an example further down the board...)

    You approval or contempt for "values" is no concern of mine. I am not responsible for actions that occurred before my birth or that were beyond my influence. I do agree with the paragraph "Thousands...as illegal" but that view was not particular to Ireland and probably was not solely the doing of the RCC: the experience from other European Countries and North America should show this. If you care to research a little.


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    #54
    Knasher
    Registered Users Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    No. Atheism Ireland is giving the crucifix more attention than the Councillor ever did/could. Sounds like an own-goal but keep kicking...
    How is it an own goal to draw attention to something that would get people talking about the separation of church and state?

    Every story I've seen on this issue has focused exclusively on the secularism angle of the story, and promoting secularism is the primary goal of AI.


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    #55
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    They voted on a crucifix- past tense. I assume they are voting, talking working on other matters too (I don't read their minutes) but this one past issue is the one that has been given National attention. At his behest? No. Atheism Ireland is giving the crucifix more attention than the Councillor ever did/could. Sounds like an own-goal but keep kicking...

    You are attempting to retort on a point of grammar? Very well. The Present Continuous Tense can be used to talk about the past, especially when summarizing (it can also be used to talk about the future, as in 'I'm meeting him next Tuesday'. Quite a versatile tense). So, 'They're voting on crucifixes' is fair usage on my part.

    Atheist Ireland (to give them their correct title) are concerned with the pursuit of an ethical secular Ireland. As such, I'd imagine that they would regard the issue of elected representatives seeking to push their own religious agenda as being within their remit, and I'd further imagine that they would very much like to draw attention to it. How is highlighting it an 'own goal'?


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    #56
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    when it suits the agenda, Ireland is a Catholic Country and the politicians are Catholic....
    Thankfully this is an outdated concept, in most parts of the country at least.


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    #57
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Knasher wrote: »
    ... get people talking...

    No, the aim of AI's challenge wasn't to get people talking; they are taking the case to the Equality Authority to try have the crucifix removed.
    See the difference?


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    #58
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    No, the aim of AI's challenge wasn't to get people talking; they are taking the case to the Equality Authority to try have the crucifix removed.
    See the difference?

    Which has gotten people talking.


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    #59
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    pauldla wrote: »
    You are attempting to retort on a point of grammar? Very well. The Present Continuous Tense can be used to talk about the past, especially when summarizing (it can also be used to talk about the future, as in 'I'm meeting him next Tuesday'. Quite a versatile tense). So, 'They're voting on crucifixes' is fair usage on my part.

    Atheist Ireland (to give them their correct title) are concerned with the pursuit of an ethical secular Ireland. As such, I'd imagine that they would regard the issue of elected representatives seeking to push their own religious agenda as being within their remit, and I'd further imagine that they would very much like to draw attention to it. How is highlighting it an 'own goal'?

    The motion was tabled, voted on and carried 6-3. KCC are not voting on this issue on a daily basis, therefore time and taxpayers money is not being currently consumed by this non-issue.
    As stated above, AI's aim was/is to have the crucifix removed; not to draw publicity. Or maybe it is all just a publicity stunt?..AI haven't been in the news for a few months and this is their way of reminding us that they are still around
    (Would you attend a hospital with a Saints name or would that offend you?


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    #60
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    kylith wrote: »
    Which has gotten people talking.

    Yeah...the ten of us here are the real movers and shakers....this will drift into obscurity until it is remembered when the hearing occurs and it will be forgotten again.

    One chips away while another builds...to and fro...sunrise, sunset etc and blah, blah, blah.


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    #61
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    The motion was tabled, voted on and carried 6-3. KCC are not voting on this issue on a daily basis, therefore time and taxpayers money is not being currently consumed by this non-issue.


    Yes, I know the vote took place. As in, in the past. I know the motion was carried. I saw the photo of the chamber, with the crucifix. I imagine that taxpayers money is not being wasted on the upkeep of the crucifix (unless they are polishing it regularly with super-extra-strength crucifix polish).
    But it is an issue, at least for secularists. And if you argue that it’s petty to argue that the crucifix not be displayed in a chamber of government, must you also not wonder if it is equally petty to call for a vote on putting the thing up in the first place?
    As stated above, AI's aim was/is to have the crucifix removed; not to draw publicity. Or maybe it is all just a publicity stunt?..AI haven't been in the news for a few months and this is their way of reminding us that they are still around
    AFAIK, AI want to see the crucifix removed. They could do this under cover of darkness (think Michael Nugent going in Ethan Hunt style) or they could try to draw attention to the issue in order to raise public awareness of it. I’d guess they’re quite happy to draw publicity on the matter, and I don’t see how you think this is an ‘own goal’.
    (Would you attend a hospital with a Saints name or would that offend you?
    Strange question. Relevance, please?


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