Ongoing religious scandals

Paparazzo · 21-03-2010 3:19pm

Busi_Girl08 wrote: »

TL;DR version.

Naughty priests - *slaps wrist* don't do that again. Pray lots.

Abused children - Sawy!! Pray lots. What Would Jesus Do?

Religious of Ireland - The Church is still awesome, make sure to pray lots.

So all we needed to do was pray :rolleyes:

It's true, repeating the Our Father and Hail Mary over and over and over will sort out everything. I reckon the all powerful creator of the universe loves when people do that

GLaDOS · 21-03-2010 5:05pm

robindch wrote: »

Looks like somebody (cough) has summarized the letter on the wiki page for catholic sex abuse cases in Ireland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Ireland#Pastoral_Letter_from_the_Pope_Benedict

Gone now

Erren Music · 21-03-2010 6:30pm

Is this just going to go on and on with the government and gardai sitting on the fence doing nothing.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/brady-wont-be-removed-by-hierarchy-outsiders-2106273.html

"Despite the litany of abuse priests have perpetuated against children -- raping them, isolating them from their families in a fog of guilt and shame, distorting their relationship with God, intimidating them into silence, discrediting those who did speak out so that many were not believed and were treated like the wrongdoers -- many people still have a deep-seated loyalty to the church that would allow them to forgive and allow the renewal that Cardinal Brady has spoken of to take place -- if it weren't for the fact that it's very hard to forgive someone who only admits they're wrong under duress, and only shows remorse after coercion."

"Monsignor Maurice Dooley on Pat Kenny's radio show earlier this week was a prime example of this. He came out fighting and gave a robust and utterly sickening defence of Cardinal Brady's actions -- citing canon law as the reason Brady had done no wrong. He said that canon law, as God's law, was above man's law."

AND

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/0320/1224266695572.html?via=mr

AND

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0321/breaking4.html

"The Murphy report, released in November, concluded that the Catholic church in Ireland had "obsessively" concealed child abuse in the Dublin archdiocese, and operated a policy of "don't ask, don't tell"."

PDN or Fanny or Rev could you please comment on that bold bit.

Rev Hellfire · 21-03-2010 8:19pm

Erren Music wrote: »

PDN or Fanny or Rev could you please comment on that bold bit.

Tee hee, epic fail on picking not a single catholic in your list.

As for the quote, well a person should follow their conscience. If they feel a law is morally wrong they should oppose it and/or ignore it. Slavishly following either state or canon law is equally wrong in my view.

Dades · 21-03-2010 11:27pm

Erren Music wrote:

Brady won't be removed by hierarchy outsiders

Moved to the religious scandals thread.

Galvasean · 22-03-2010 1:51am

branie wrote: »

What's your opinion on it? I feel that he is genuinely remorseful.

I'm thinking you didn't read the damn thing.

Erren Music · 22-03-2010 2:25am

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Tee hee, epic fail on picking not a single catholic in your list.

I didn't want a catholic opinion. Sorry RevH mixed you up there.

Those other 2 are very devout in their own religions, maybe jackass can address it

MackDeToaster · 22-03-2010 4:22pm

Erren Music wrote: »

Is this just going to go on and on with the government and gardai sitting on the fence doing nothing.

This is probably not the place to ask, but I'm not sure where is, so please move if there's somewhere more appropriate.

Anyway seeing as the government and Gardai are apparently doing nothing, I'm wondering has anyone actually laid charges on Brady with regard to covering up crimes (with regard to Misprision and the Offences Against the State Act 1939) ?

Seeing as it's probably impossible to find that out, and considering that maybe no-one actually has, and that the DPP or whoever might be doing nothing due to the old forelock-tugging 'respect', I've been considering going down to the local station myself and making a complaint/filing charges. Can I actually do such a thing, how can I ensure that it's treated seriously (I shouldn't even have to ask this really, but it just goes to demonstrate my lack of trust in anything these days) and what would the best way to proceed?

recedite · 22-03-2010 4:57pm

MackDeToaster wrote: »

I've been considering going down to the local station myself and making a complaint/filing charges.?

Well done for wanting to actually do something, but i think you would have to be party to the events. I think this all came to light because one of the victims involved (the girl) is actually sueing the cardinal. Maybe if this succeeds the intention is to take a criminal case?
In the Omagh bombings case they proceeded with a civil case because the burden of proof is lower than that of a criminal case.

MrPudding · 22-03-2010 9:08pm

The Grand Wizard wrote:

Particular attention should also be given to Eucharistic adoration, and
in every diocese there should be churches or chapels specifically devoted
to this purpose. I ask parishes, seminaries, religious houses and
monasteries to organize periods of Eucharistic adoration, so that all have
an opportunity to take part. Through intense prayer before the real
presence of the Lord, you can make reparation for the sins of abuse that
have done so much harm, at the same time imploring the grace of renewed
strength and a deeper sense of mission on the part of all bishops, priests,
religious and lay faithful.

I am confident that this programme will lead to a rebirth of the Church
in Ireland in the fullness of God’s own truth, for it is the truth that sets us
free (cf. Jn 8:32).

So to paraphrase... the RCC in Ireland is broken and we are going to fix it with... wait for it... MAGIC!!! Ta Da!!!

MrP

Galvasean · 23-03-2010 1:26am

MrPudding wrote: »

So to paraphrase... the RCC in Ireland is broken and we are going to fix it with... wait for it... MAGIC!!! Ta Da!!!

MrP

There is a sick amount of truth to your joke... It would take a bloody miracle to sort out the RCC.

eoin5 · 23-03-2010 10:11am

indo letter http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/what-exactly-is-church-for-today-2107821.html wrote:

Cardinal Sean Brady may well be a decent man. But by his own admission, when he was made aware of the sexual abuse of young children by a pervert priest he knowingly covered it up, leading to similar abuse and suffering for other children.

I've heard this kind of stuff before, does his reputation for being a good man just come from him being a likable person?

--amadeus-- · 25-03-2010 9:02am

Pope now linked directly by documents to cover up and protection of an abusive priest linky

sionnach · 25-03-2010 9:18am

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Pope now linked directly by documents to cover up and protection of an abusive priest linky

Also the lead story of today's new york times:

http://www.nytimes.com/indexes/2010/03/25/pageone/scan/index.html

PDN · 25-03-2010 10:09am

Erren Music wrote: »

He said that canon law, as God's law, was above man's law."

PDN or Fanny or Rev could you please comment on that bold bit.

Not quite sure why my comments on this should merit attention?

I am not a Roman Catholic, and I think their canon law has no more standing in civil society than the rules of a golf club or the way that pool players in a certain pub might have commonly understood rules about whether the black ball can be potted into any pocket, a designated pocket, or into the pocket into which your previous ball was potted.

I don't think canon law is God's law at all. It is a set of man-made by-laws and rules which, while necessary for the smooth running of any organisation, are subordinate to the laws of the land and to the clear moral rights of children.

Erren Music · 25-03-2010 1:32pm

PDN wrote: »

Not quite sure why my comments on this should merit attention?

I am not a Roman Catholic, and I think their canon law has no more standing in civil society than the rules of a golf club or the way that pool players in a certain pub might have commonly understood rules about whether the black ball can be potted into any pocket, a designated pocket, or into the pocket into which your previous ball was potted.

I don't think canon law is God's law at all. It is a set of man-made by-laws and rules which, while necessary for the smooth running of any organisation, are subordinate to the laws of the land and to the clear moral rights of children.

Thanks for the reply. I asked you because you are not rcc but you have a deep belief in god.

Does canon law apply to all christians or just rcc?

recedite · 25-03-2010 1:40pm

Erren Music wrote: »

.

Does canon law apply to all christians or just rcc?

Only the stuff in the Bible is common to all Christians, and even that is open to different interpretations.

PDN · 25-03-2010 2:40pm

Erren Music wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. I asked you because you are not rcc but you have a deep belief in god.

Does canon law apply to all christians or just rcc?

The Orthodox Church has Canon Law, but sees it more as guidelines that can be adjusted according to local cultures and civil laws.

The Anglican Church (eg Church of Ireland) has a very limited system of Canon Law that deals mainly with discipline of clergy, alteration of church property, and issues related to churchyards.

Most Christian Churches have by-laws that serve practical organisational purposes, but they are recognised as man-made structures rather than 'God's Law'. For example, my own denomination decides all these things by a democratic vote (all adult members have a vote) and all Bishops etc. are similarly democratically elected. So the members can change our by-laws even if it means going against the will of the top leaders.

The big difference in this is that groups who see their organisation as being "the one true Church" (eg Catholicism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses etc) consequently see their rules as being the very rules of God, and therefore more important than anything else. However most Christian denominations see themselves as only a small part of something much bigger, so their rules are recognised as man-made.

Fanny Cradock · 25-03-2010 10:19pm

Erren Music wrote: »

He said that canon law, as God's law, was above man's law.

Like PDN, I don't accept that the Cannon Law of the RCC is necessarily God's Law, nor do I accept that it automatically supersedes the Law of the land. Whatever about an organization like the RCC requiring its own rules and laws to ensure proper governance, it is clear that Cannon Law was (and is) utterly insufficient to handle the endemic crime of child abuse that was present in the RCC. These abuses are a civil matter, and as a Christian, I see no reason to believe that a ruling from a secular body like the court is opposed to God's idea of justice. Without full disclosure to the civil authorities, I think it is possible that the RCC is not only preventing justice, it is also tarnishing the names and deeds of the good people that are associated with it.

strobe · 26-03-2010 2:52am

PDN wrote: »

For example, my own denomination decides all these things by a democratic vote (all adult members have a vote) and all Bishops etc. are similarly democratically elected. So the members can change our by-laws even if it means going against the will of the top leaders.

What is your denomination PDN, if you don't mind me asking? Also is that all adult church employees, like ministers ect have a vote or all adult members of the church, as in the lay people/followers/worshipers (I'm not sure what they are called) aswell have a vote?

PDN · 26-03-2010 10:16am

strobe wrote: »

What is your denomination PDN, if you don't mind me asking? Also is that all adult church employees, like ministers ect have a vote or all adult members of the church, as in the lay people/followers/worshipers (I'm not sure what they are called) aswell have a vote?

It is a Pentecostal/Evangelical denomination. All adult members have a vote. That includes all the worshippers - providing that they have been baptised as adults, have applied to become members of the Church, and agree with the beliefs and practices of the Church. Just being born into a church family doesn't count - so our apostate children can't do a "count me out" since they weren't counted in the first place.

Erren Music · 26-03-2010 12:22pm

PDN wrote: »

It is a Pentecostal/Evangelical denomination. All adult members have a vote. That includes all the worshippers - providing that they have been baptised as adults, have applied to become members of the Church, and agree with the beliefs and practices of the Church. Just being born into a church family doesn't count - so our apostate children can't do a "count me out" since they weren't counted in the first place.

Are women equal.

Dades · 26-03-2010 12:35pm

Erren Music wrote: »

Are women equal.

I'd say in some cases, better.

PDN · 26-03-2010 12:42pm

Erren Music wrote: »

Are women equal.

Unfortunately not. They have the same voting rights and can be Pastors of churches, but at present cannot be Bishops. That is something I have been deeply unhappy about since I joined the denomination and, this coming Summer, I've managed to get it placed on our agenda to be voted on. So, the way things are looking, women will be equal in a few months (which is about a hundred years too late).

recedite · 26-03-2010 1:02pm

That democracy lark is all fine and dandy PDN, but if you don't belong to the one true and original church, then you're no better than a damned atheist

The Mad Hatter · 26-03-2010 1:11pm

recedite wrote: »

That democracy lark is all fine and dandy PDN, but if you don't belong to the one true and original church, then you're no better than a damned atheist

Which one is that? Judaism?

nozzferrahhtoo · 26-03-2010 2:11pm

Check out the name of the writer of the article. "Unfortunate" does not begin to describe it.

Another sex abuse scandal...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 065824.ece

Feownah · 26-03-2010 2:29pm

The Vatican has attacked the media over charges that the Pope failed to act against a US priest accused of abusing up to 200 deaf boys two decades ago.

A Vatican newspaper editorial said the claims were an "ignoble" attack on the Pope and that there was no "cover-up". (BBC News)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8588294.stm
Now let's look at the meaning of the word "ignoble" : Not noble in quality, character, or purpose; base or mean. / If you describe something as ignoble, you mean that it is bad and something to be ashamed of. /not noble; of humble descent or rank.

If ANYTHING I think the Vatican and Pope Ratzinger can be described as "ignoble".

They are the DEVIL INCARNATE.

robindch · 26-03-2010 2:49pm

Feownah wrote: »

[...] I think the Vatican and Pope Ratzinger can be described as "ignoble". They are the DEVIL INCARNATE.

Well, much as many people might wish otherwise, at least Ratzinger and company exist

PDN · 26-03-2010 4:08pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Check out the name of the writer of the article. "Unfortunate" does not begin to describe it.

Another sex abuse scandal...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 065824.ece

Having the name "404 Error" would be unfortunate in any circumstances.

Ongoing religious scandals

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