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M7 - Nenagh to Limerick

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Why didn't they just dig out the bog instead of trying to lend it solidity with the piles? Considering the amount of bulk earthworks and rock excavation done on the scheme, seriously, why didn't they just scoop the peat out of it?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Furet wrote: »
    Why didn't they just dig out the bog instead of trying to lend it solidity with the piles? Considering the amount of bulk earthworks and rock excavation done on the scheme, seriously, why didn't they just scoop the peat out of it?

    Because they'd need to fill it with something?

    Also I guess if they didn't remove *all* the bog water would just seep in to whatever fill they put it, or we'd get a nice underwater road if it was in a cutting...


  • Registered Users Posts: 397 ✭✭Geogregor


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Did you say this chap did journals of other Irish road trips? Any links? :)

    http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=42852640&postcount=309

    http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=43468548&postcount=312

    Sorry for OT,
    It is the last one ;)
    Furet can move these links to relevant threads.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,458 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Furet wrote: »
    Why didn't they just dig out the bog instead of trying to lend it solidity with the piles? Considering the amount of bulk earthworks and rock excavation done on the scheme, seriously, why didn't they just scoop the peat out of it?

    I think that is what they have been trying to do up until now, but they are really having difficulty reaching the bottom of it . . .


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,433 ✭✭✭cjpm


    Furet wrote: »
    Why didn't they just dig out the bog instead of trying to lend it solidity with the piles? Considering the amount of bulk earthworks and rock excavation done on the scheme, seriously, why didn't they just scoop the peat out of it?


    Bog is about 90% water.
    Imagine digging a trench in a lake, more than 30m deep in places and 1km long... You would need to be Moses to keep that volume of water out!

    Seriously the NRA screwed up with that part of the route selection. They might claim now that they are not going to pay for it since the contractor is doing the job for a fixed price, however, you can be sure that everyone that tendered had to bring up their prices substantially due to the route running through approx 4km of terrain that was classified as bog.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    It is not a big disaster, in extremis they could open all the rest of the M7 leaving a five mile 'missing link' between Birdhill and the Limerick Ring Road while they drag each other through the courts.

    I would even pay the contractors 75% of the money due once they open the rest of it which appears to be imminent.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    cjpm wrote: »
    Bog is about 90% water.
    Imagine digging a trench in a lake, more than 30m deep in places and 1km long... You would need to be Moses to keep that volume of water out!

    I wasn't aware that bogs were composed of such a high percentage of water. That being the case, fair enough. But surely it was not beyond our ken to drain the bog, or to channel the water away. Either way, it does seem like a costly problem, but surely not an insurmountable one. We on this forum noticed the piles a year ago, but nothing was done with them until, it seems, a few months ago. The contractors must have thought it would be a simple matter to lay the road on top of the piles. If they had paid more attention to that section a year ago (instead of basically ignoring it for so long as appears to have been the case), then they would have found a way to fix the problem sooner, rather than leaving the problem to the last minute to solve in the winter. This scheme seems to have been cursed from the get go.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,433 ✭✭✭cjpm


    Furet wrote: »
    I wasn't aware that bogs were composed of such a high percentage of water. That being the case, fair enough. But surely it was not beyond our ken to drain the bog, or to channel the water away.

    Afraid that's a bit of a no go,
    1) Bogs help attenuate high rainfalls, if one was to drain the area of the bog, any rivers that the water is piped to would have worse flooding problems.
    2) The bog is a huge area to even be attempting to drain.
    3) Habitat distruction.

    It was a bit of a mistake run the route through the bogs, although the NRA will never admit that. If it was known that the bog was over 30m deep in places there was no way in hell that the route would have been chosen. However it was not possible to tell how deep it was at Prelim design as no machine could get in there to drill cores etc.

    I think the article in the local paper was just a dig at the original designers at it is obviously the case that they ignored the local folklore that the bog was bottomless (or at least very deep)

    In my humble opinion, any bog deeper than 5m is a no go area for a road. Piles are the biz for a building or bridge as it's a case of a few high point loads. Piles for a road foundation are crazy as the costs go through the roof. A 0m to 5m deep bog could be sheet piled, excavated and filled with suitable fill.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    Dynamic Probing was carried out in the bogs at Drominboy and Annaholty at the prelim design stage. The probe actually sank straight into the ground with it having to be driven by the hammer. Probing was carried out using the lightweight Competitor Dart.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,458 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Dynamic Probing was carried out in the bogs at Drominboy and Annaholty at the prelim design stage. The probe actually sank straight into the ground with it having to be driven by the hammer. Probing was carried out using the lightweight Competitor Dart.

    Ah Drominboy, that is where the problem is according to local newspapers.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    They should stop pansying about and bring in The Beast . It can shift 76,000 Cubic Metres a Day .

    Trencher2.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    They'd probably find yer man's sunken digger with that and all.*

    * Mentioned in the Nenagh Guardian.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,570 ✭✭✭Rovi


    Furet wrote: »
    They'd probably find yer man's sunken digger with that and all.*

    * Mentioned in the Nenagh Guardian.
    Well, it's certainly able to 'find' bulldozers:
    298574512ecb3f7b06fo063.jpg

    More on the mighty Bagger 288 here:
    http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2006/11/biggest-and-hungriest-machines.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    I think that they had employ some ground freezing to move The Beast across some of the motorway embankments.

    You can see the road skirting the edge of the bog below. It's directly under the label Ballinacourty.

    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=52.6858,-8.493032&spn=0.011863,0.038581&t=h&z=15

    The myth about the digger sinking is just that. I think I may have explained it ages ago in this thread. It was an excavator that was on hire-purchase. Bank were going to repossess it so the guy tracked into the edge of the bog dug a small hole and gravity did the rest. They guy stripped it of everything he could before doing it as well. It was burried up to it's cab with the gib exposed. Not too sure if it fell within the LMA though.

    I don't recall seeing the route options at the time but they couldn't go north of their existing location due to the existing N7/level crossing/railway line/housing settlements. To go further south would push it further into the Dromingboy bog. So that would have probably have left them in or around/running parallel with the R503 Newport Road.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    May as well let it ate Moyross afterwards to keep it happy :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Any updates on the Nenagh bypass? I'd like to see this scheme put to bed soon.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    It's been a week since I was down there and there still looked to be a good week's work to be done. They would also have to carry out a Stage Road Safety Audit on the road itself and the TTM (at the western end). So it might be possible that with usual contractor 'performance' coupled with Audit issues that it will be further delayed.

    I 'll take a drive down there tomorrow and see what it's like.


  • Registered Users Posts: 397 ✭✭Geogregor


    You can see the road skirting the edge of the bog below. It's directly under the label Ballinacourty.

    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=52.6858,-8.493032&spn=0.011863,0.038581&t=h&z=15

    Which label? Top or the bottom one? Is it this brown patch of land?
    How long is this bogged section?

    Did you have "bog problems" on other projects?
    Ireland is known of bogs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    Geogregor wrote: »
    Which Label? Top or bottom? Is it this brown patch of land?
    How long is this bogged section?

    Did you have "bog problems" on other projects?
    Ireland is known of bogs.

    Apologies, the lower lable. Yes it is the brown patch of land. IIRC that section was about 800m in length, so you could add in about another 100m either side for variable ground.

    Bogs are common in Ireland indeed but it is the depth of peat that is critical and what underlies it. That section of bog is quite bad in comparison with the bog at Annaholty which had about 15m of peat in places overlying sand and gravels. The road through Annaholty is a lot longer as well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 397 ✭✭Geogregor


    That section of bog is quite bad in comparison with the bog at Annaholty which had about 15m of peat in places overlying sand and gravels. The road through Annaholty is a lot longer as well.

    How did they build it there. Ground replacement?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    Look what I found for you lucky people. Pictures of the mythical excavator in Drominboy as well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭AlanD


    Hi,

    at the end of the Nenagh Limerick road, at Finnegan's Roundabout, there are ponds either side of the raised M7 going over the roundabout. There are ponds on other projects too, but what I am wondering is, what are they for?

    I'm guessing some sort of drainage thing. But I'm sure someone else can be more specific than that.

    Thanks


  • Registered Users Posts: 532 ✭✭✭ki


    I passed under the Nenagh Bypass yesterday and seen them putting up the Blue Gantry Signs, at the Limerick Road End.

    So that section could be open v. soon


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    AlanD wrote: »
    Hi,

    at the end of the Nenagh Limerick road, at Finnegan's Roundabout, there are ponds either side of the raised M7 going over the roundabout. There are ponds on other projects too, but what I am wondering is, what are they for?

    I'm guessing some sort of drainage thing. But I'm sure someone else can be more specific than that.

    Thanks

    Attenuation ponds. It's where runoff rainwater from the road goes. Petrol pollutants are filtered away and the water passes, clean, into the ponds. There are many along all schemes. They also serve a valuable role in helping wildlife by creating freshwater habitats.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Farmers still wait for payment for M7 land acquisition


    By Simon O’Duffy
    North Tipperary farmers and other landowners are still waiting to be paid for lands they sacrificed for the new M7 motorway.
    Hundreds of landowners have given up land through the Compulsory Purchase Order scheme to facilitate construction of the M7, the Nenagh-Limerick section of which is due to open at the end of this year.
    However according to the Irish Farmers Association a significant number of these landowners have still not been paid for their land, despite the fact that many parts of the M7 are now reaching completion.
    Chairman of the IFA Roads Project Team Jer Bergin said many farmers on both the Castletown-Nenagh and Nenagh-Limerick sections of the scheme are owed CPO monies by the National Roads Authority. But he said the roads authority does not have the money to pay these farmers, and those who are still owed are worried that they will be left in limbo.
    The NRA has denied this claim and stated that money has been set aside for purchasing land for the M7.
    A spokesperson for the authority said the majority of land purchases on the scheme have been finalised. A small number of individual cases remain outstanding but these are being dealt with by the local councils, which act as conduits for the payment of NRA monies to landowners.
    Limerck Co Council is the lead local authority on the Nenagh-Limerick section of the scheme. Executive Engineer Deirdre Hoolihy said the council is dealing with around 300 landowners on the scheme and that 80 to 90 per cent of CPOs have been settled since the council served notice to treat in March 2005. She said negotiations are still taking place with the remainder.
    Similarly with Laois Co Council, which is the lead authority on the C a s t l e t o w n - N e n a g h scheme, Project Engineer Joe Kelly told The Guardian that the majority of CPOs on the scheme, which involves roughly 150 land parcels, have been settled. The council served its notice to treat in July 2006.
    It is understood that disagreement over title deeds and valuation has stalled a number of the outstanding cases on the M7.
    The IFA was unable to confirm exactly how many farmers are awaiting CPO payments on the Nenagh-Limerick and C a s t l e t o w n - N e n a g h schemes. However farmers say they are unhappy with how the matter is being dealt with, one member telling The Guardian that there appeared to be a complete lack of communication between the relevant authorities on the N e n a g h - L i m e r i c k scheme. He described the situation as a “total fiasco.”
    M e a n w h i l e Agricultural Consultant Richard Ray, who has represented farmers on the Castletown-Nenagh scheme, said about a third of landowners whose cases were deemed settled have still not received any money. He levelled blame at the door of the NRA.
    Mr Bergin said the IFA is concerned that landowners who have not yet signed CPO contracts will experience great difficulty in securing payment. He was particularly concerned that farmers may fall victim to proposals for a new 80 per cent windfall tax that will apply to the sale of sites and rezoned land.
    Farmers have reacted furiously to the proposals, which were introduced as part of the NAMA legislation, and which could leave all lands zoned for development subject to the new high rate of capital gains tax.
    Mr Bergin said farmers would refuse to cooperate with road building projects if the Government attempted to introduce the windfall tax.
    Meanwhile on Monday, farmers from North Tipperary took part in the IFA-organised tractorcade protest in Thurles to highlight their concern over collapsing farm incomes.

    http://www.nenaghguardian.ie/search-articles-detail.php?article=FOIZIK

    I was talking to many residents along the route of the Gort to Crusheen scheme recently that have not been paid for their land yet either. No funds for CPO's on the next batch of PPP's is more of a worry now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    On the M8 many farmers still hadn't been paid when the road was just opened between Cashel and Mitchelstown, nor, for that matter, between Mitchelstown and Fermoy. It seems the norm. A farm accountant told me that good interest builds up for the farmers through these delays, which if true would mean that they get more than the agreed price eventually. I don't think its fair that people should have to pay a windfall tax where that windfall was generated by CPO, however.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    As mentioned in the above article in a lot of cases there are issues regarding the title to the lands and also the compensation package might not have been agreed with the local authority. In some cases this may lead to arbitration. Some landowners can't be reasoned with when it comes to the money. They will do enough to try and hold up the scheme but not put their co-operation money in danger.

    Also the interest only starts to accrue once a 30 day period has elapsed after the agreement has been signed by both parties.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Look what I found for you lucky people. Pictures of the mythical excavator in Drominboy as well.

    Great find! I was particularly interested in this bit (p. 42 of pdf):

    "Ever since the Roman period, a brushwood base has been used for roads passing over unstable ground. The great road builders of the United Kingdom such as Telford and MacAdam, used such a method, for example the 'western road' from Carlisle to Glasgow. With the invention of geotextiles, brushwood bases are less used but with considerations of sustainability, they are being re-considered."

    Looks like we might be going back to using road construction techniques that have been used in Ireland for thousands of years.

    As the saying doesn't go, there is nothing new under the bog. ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,356 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    As mentioned in the above article in a lot of cases there are issues regarding the title to the lands and also the compensation package might not have been agreed with the local authority. In some cases this may lead to arbitration. Some landowners can't be reasoned with when it comes to the money. They will do enough to try and hold up the scheme but not put their co-operation money in danger.

    Also the interest only starts to accrue once a 30 day period has elapsed after the agreement has been signed by both parties.

    This is true. I signed up to the CPO (Castletown-Nenagh scheme) in July 2007 and got paid my money in full plus interest in Oct. 2007. Alot of my neighbours haven't been so lucky. Then again, alot of them went into dispute with the NRA. I disputed things too, but never anything too bad. I thought the best tactic was to play ball with them. After all, they will take the land no matter what so its best to agree while not letting them walk all over ya.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Its maybe good news in a way for us because land can be CPOed now and basically not paid for for 5 years.

    M20 please? :D


This discussion has been closed.
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