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Prayer Skeptic

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Comments

  • #32
    iUseVi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    Wicknight wrote: »
    I think that that is exactly the point.

    That would probably because so few Christians believe they are actually going to hell.

    You think if you do right by God he will not send you to hell, so why worry about hell? You aren't going there

    That's hit the nail on the head. You hear Christians forever talking about how it will be glorious when they are in heaven, with all the rest of the saints. They just about always don't even consider the alternative.

    Even when there is a bible verse that has both considerations; they only read out the half that has the part about going to heaven.

    They never assume they might be going to hell. Have you ever met a Christian that thinks they are going to hell? Of course not.

    Not only that, but they are always earnestly praying for their friends and relatives; so that they could "see the light". The whole thing is selfish. How about praying for the world, or the universe, or in some manner for everyone? Not just the people that you think would be desirable to have around.


  • #33
    gordon_gekko
    Closed Accounts Posts: 412 ✭✭gordon_gekko


    robindch wrote: »
    It's fairly straightforward. Within SS, people who believe themselves to be under the total control of an agent who has life-or-death power over them, tend, where they can, to support the agent or go along passively, presumably in the hope that the agent won't be irritated to the point of killing them.

    In this case, the praise lavished upon the capricious and violent deity of the OT who created the threatening political world in which true believers think they exist, can be seen as structurally quite similar to the praise lavished by the citizens of the DPRK upon the creator of their system. From the outside, it's easier to see that the creator (virtual or otherwise) of each system is engaging in moral blackmail of its inhabitants.

    Clearer?


    CRYSTAL clear mate


  • #34
    gordon_gekko
    Closed Accounts Posts: 412 ✭✭gordon_gekko


    having being brought up in a religous household but no longer being a religous person myself and having observed the world for the 30 yrs of my existence , having seen all the stories on tv about famine , war etc , ive come to the conclusion that the only logical reason to either love god or pray to him is because if you dont , he will punish you

    ps. dont tell me that wars and famines are down to free will , the ol cop out of pointing to free will doesnt wash with the situation in burma right now
    cyclones dont have free will , oh and you cant use global warming as an excuse either as most christians dont believe in global warming , well in the usa anyhow


  • #35
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Indeed, belief in a benevolent creator it is the point.

    Not quite. The position you take that your god is benevolent is the point.

    Everyone else (on the non-worshipping side) seems to think your god is a horrible monster. The question is why do you not.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    I'm sorry, Wicknight, but how exactly do you know what I have and and have not questioned?
    From your posts and the way you support your beliefs in these posts. Particularly the posts where you argue the justice and morality of your god.

    You do post here a lot Fanny, its pretty easy to build up a good idea of how you view your faith and the nature of God's actions towards us.


  • #36
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,397 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    gordon_gekko wrote: »
    the only logical reason to either love god or pray to him is because if you dont , he will punish you
    That's one possibility -- the 'bad-cop' one -- of the various ones which form the 'rational choice' approach to explaining religion. The good-cop side includes notions like receiving eternal life in exchange for belief, reuniting with one's dead friends and family, some life-improving event attributed to the deity prayed-to and so on. While there are enough reasons floating around for a some proportion of the believer population to acquire religious belief using a rational-choice approach, I don't believe it's anything close to a majority.

    Different religious ideas use different approaches, but regardless, it seems to me that religious belief is acquired mainly unconsciously, with only a small proportion of believers post-hoc rationalizing their earlier choice using some rational-seeming explanation.


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  • #37
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    gordon_gekko wrote: »
    having being brought up in a religous household but no longer being a religous person myself and having observed the world for the 30 yrs of my existence , having seen all the stories on tv about famine , war etc , ive come to the conclusion that the only logical reason to either love god or pray to him is because if you dont , he will punish you

    ps. dont tell me that wars and famines are down to free will , the ol cop out of pointing to free will doesnt wash with the situation in burma right now
    cyclones dont have free will , oh and you cant use global warming as an excuse either as most christians dont believe in global warming , well in the usa anyhow

    This is boards.ie - not boards.usa. If you want to argue on the basis of what "most christians" believe in the USA I suggest that you take your argument to an American internet forum. I would also suggest that you learn to get your facts straight, as I think you are wrong about what most Christians in the US believe.

    I think it is certainly possible that human pollution can contribute to events such as a cyclone. That would not just include global warming, but also the effects of testing atomic weapons, the pollution of the ocean with billions of plastic bags etc. Also, in Myanmar we have people living in exposed areas due to global and national economic inequality and injustice, and the absence of early warning or evacuation measures due to a crap government and a global community that is more interested in applying sticking plasters of aid after disasters than in funding the measures to avoid disasters.

    I love God, and I pray to Him, which I find immensely satisfying and rewarding. I certainly am not afraid of Him punishing me.


  • #38
    gordon_gekko
    Closed Accounts Posts: 412 ✭✭gordon_gekko


    PDN wrote: »
    This is boards.ie - not boards.usa. If you want to argue on the basis of what "most christians" believe in the USA I suggest that you take your argument to an American internet forum. I would also suggest that you learn to get your facts straight, as I think you are wrong about what most Christians in the US believe.

    I think it is certainly possible that human pollution can contribute to events such as a cyclone. That would not just include global warming, but also the effects of testing atomic weapons, the pollution of the ocean with billions of plastic bags etc. Also, in Myanmar we have people living in exposed areas due to global and national economic inequality and injustice, and the absence of early warning or evacuation measures due to a crap government and a global community that is more interested in applying sticking plasters of aid after disasters than in funding the measures to avoid disasters.

    I love God, and I pray to Him, which I find immensely satisfying and rewarding. I certainly am not afraid of Him punishing me.



    there were no early warning devices 300 yrs ago to warn people( who lived in poorly constructed houses ) of imminent tsunamis or cyclones
    nuclear weapons are a modern day phenomenon , so to is pollution

    nice try though to get your god of the hook


  • #39
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    gordon_gekko wrote: »
    there were no early warning devices 300 yrs ago to warn people( who lived in poorly constructed houses ) of imminent tsunamis or cyclones
    nuclear weapons are a modern day phenomenon , so to is pollution

    nice try though to get your god of the hook

    You posted about what's happening in Burma now, not about 300 years ago. we can only answer what you actually post about. If you want someone to respond to stuff that you haven't actually posted yet then I suggest you try the Spirituality Board and see if there are any psychics there.


  • #40
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    robindch wrote: »
    Well, whatever people think about their deities, most modern variations of christianity are fairly specific in saying that believers must believe that certain things are true or do certain things (or both), to avoid burning in hell. That's the control I'm talking about and it seems that you are having desperate trouble seeing it, which seems to be a symptom of SS too :)

    And that's a FACT.*

    (*) Convincing, eh?

    Ah, very good! Tell me, are you simply thinking out loud? Or is there something a little more substantive behind the claim? Funnily enough, one of the few mentions of Stockholm Syndrome and Christianity I came across on the interweb was in relation to Revelations.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Not quite. The position you take that your god is benevolent is the point.

    Everyone else (on the non-worshipping side) seems to think your god is a horrible monster.

    You speak for all non-Christians now?
    Wicknight wrote: »
    From your posts and the way you support your beliefs in these posts. Particularly the posts where you argue the justice and morality of your god.

    You do post here a lot Fanny, its pretty easy to build up a good idea of how you view your faith and the nature of God's actions towards us.

    Indeed, much like yourself, I do post here a lot - too much, in fact. Yet despite my 100's of posts, I have said relatively little about what I have or have not questioned with regards to my faith. Again, you assume that I (or other Christians) have or do not ask the big questions as doing so supports your position.


  • #41
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,397 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Funnily enough, one of the few mentions of Stockholm Syndrome and Christianity I came across on the interweb was in relation to Revelations.
    Try searching for SS and religion instead -- remember that it applies to many more religions than just christianity.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Ah, very good! Tell me, are you simply thinking out loud? Or is there something a little more substantive behind the claim?
    Er, I'm pointing out that there's a similarity. Not everybody can see it, but that inability itself is a fundamental part of the syndrome :)

    FACT.


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  • #42
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    You speak for all non-Christians now?
    I'm not claiming to speak for anyone, I'm saying that they appear to think your God is a horrible monster. The "I don't believe in your god, but I do think he sounds wonderful" posts are a little thin on the ground on boards.ie
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Yet despite my 100's of posts, I have said relatively little about what I have or have not questioned with regards to my faith
    That's not true, you have posted quite a bit on that subject, certainly enough for someone how regularly reads these forums to get an idea about the level of critical analysis and questioning you seem prepared to get into over these issues.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Again, you assume that I (or other Christians) have or do not ask the big questions as doing so supports your position.

    No, I take the position because you don't appear to honestly "ask the big questions" as you put it (by honestly I mean happy to accept an answer you don't like or that doesn't serve a useful purpose to you).


  • #43
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    gordon_gekko wrote: »
    having being brought up in a religous household but no longer being a religous person myself and having observed the world for the 30 yrs of my existence , having seen all the stories on tv about famine , war etc , ive come to the conclusion that the only logical reason to either love god or pray to him is because if you dont , he will punish you

    ps. dont tell me that wars and famines are down to free will , the ol cop out of pointing to free will doesnt wash with the situation in burma right now
    cyclones dont have free will , oh and you cant use global warming as an excuse either as most christians dont believe in global warming , well in the usa anyhow
    The existence of evil/evil events does indeed make one ask if God exists, or if He does, is He good? The Bible gives us the answer - at least enough of the answer for us to make rational decisions on.

    The evil that exists is down to man's sin, both original and personal. Man's sin in the person of our original father, Adam, brought suffering and death on all his posterity, for we all inherited his fallen nature and God's judgement on it.

    Man's sin in the present, our's individually, also causes much suffering and in turn brings further judgement from God.

    Is God right to punish sin? Yes, since He is holy and just.

    Is the Burma cyclone an example of specific judgement against individual's today or part of the general judgement on mankind that has continued since the Fall? Mostly the latter, I reckon. But for some individuals it could be their terminus as a judgement on whatever went on in their lives.

    Many people, saints and sinners, die from disease every day. No element of personal judgement is involved. But some others die precisely because of their sin. A Biblical example:
    Acts 12:20 Now Herod had been very angry with the people of Tyre and Sidon; but they came to him with one accord, and having made Blastus the king’s personal aide their friend, they asked for peace, because their country was supplied with food by the king’s country.
    21 So on a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat on his throne and gave an oration to them. 22 And the people kept shouting, “The voice of a god and not of a man!” 23 Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.
    24 But the word of God grew and multiplied.


  • #44
    Ekancone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Ekancone


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    The existence of evil/evil events does indeed make one ask if God exists, or if He does, is He good? The Bible gives us the answer - at least enough of the answer for us to make rational decisions on.

    The evil that exists is down to man's sin, both original and personal. Man's sin in the person of our original father, Adam, brought suffering and death on all his posterity, for we all inherited his fallen nature and God's judgement on it.

    Man's sin in the present, our's individually, also causes much suffering and in turn brings further judgement from God.

    Is God right to punish sin? Yes, since He is holy and just.

    Is the Burma cyclone an example of specific judgement against individual's today or part of the general judgement on mankind that has continued since the Fall? Mostly the latter, I reckon. But for some individuals it could be their terminus as a judgement on whatever went on in their lives.

    Many people, saints and sinners, die from disease every day. No element of personal judgement is involved. But some others die precisely because of their sin. A Biblical example:
    Acts 12:20 Now Herod had been very angry with the people of Tyre and Sidon; but they came to him with one accord, and having made Blastus the king’s personal aide their friend, they asked for peace, because their country was supplied with food by the king’s country.
    21 So on a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat on his throne and gave an oration to them. 22 And the people kept shouting, “The voice of a god and not of a man!” 23 Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.
    24 But the word of God grew and multiplied.

    You know, out of every 'believers' postings on here, I think I like yours the best. No bull****, this is what the bible says, end of story. :)


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