Dean of St Partrick Says Islam and Hinduism are cults

lostexpectation · 18-04-2008 9:46am #1

Faith teaching in schools

Madam, - Like my friend Michael Nuttall (April 12th) I too have had experience of the difficulty of teaching Protestant pupils in secondary schools.

But I think it is a misunderstanding of the nature of religious education to say that it should be excluded from the curriculum.

All the churches collude in treating religious education as instruction in the ways of particular denominations. Yet it is a subject in its own right and the secondary curriculum would be much poorer without it. Let's have genuine religious education properly taught and followed by all pupils together.

Muslims and Hindus should be welcome to join in but I suspect that they won't want to: to them religious education has no meaning; instead they wish their children to be indoctrinated in the worship of a cult. - Yours, etc,

ROBERT MacCARTHY, Dean of St Patrick's, Dublin 8.

Hinduism etc

for perspective

Hinduism is the world's oldest major religion that is still practiced. Its earliest origins can be traced to the ancient Vedic civilization.A conglomerate of diverse beliefs and traditions, Hinduism has no single founder. It is the world's third largest religion following Christianity and Islam, with approximately a billion adherents, of whom about 905 million live in India and Nepal.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/letters/2008/0417/1208276995914.html

way to insult a few of billion people and the oldest continuous religion in the world.

This guy? who do the hell does he think he is. I mean he could suggest they are not the one true religion okay but to call em cults?

this guy is just arrogant, ignorant, bigot a relic of the past.

ps you will also notice Bertie Ahern stuck his craven catholic nose into our education again and discussed with EU Pres Barrasso about allowing religious discrimination to continue in our schools.

neuro-praxis · 18-04-2008 11:23am

He is using the word cult in the sociological definition that is not intended to be pejorative in any sense.

He may not be the ignorant one in this conversation...

lostexpectation · 18-04-2008 11:41am

same difference

i think he was purposely trying to be derogatory

robindch · 18-04-2008 11:45am

neuro-praxis wrote: »

He is using the word cult in the sociological definition that is not intended to be pejorative in any sense.

Nonsense, since MacCarthy is quite unlikely to describe his own religion in similar terms. He's just being rude about another religion -- pure and simple. The parable about specks in eyes springs to mind.

wolfsbane · 18-04-2008 5:22pm

robindch wrote: »

Nonsense, since MacCarthy is quite unlikely to describe his own religion in similar terms. He's just being rude about another religion -- pure and simple. The parable about specks in eyes springs to mind.

I'm inclined to agree with robin's interpretation of this incident. MacCarthy must know how 'cult' will be understood by the readers.

Seems to me to be the latest example of ecumenical fascism, a sub-set of liberal facism: We all follow the one God/god(GOOD), and any that don't agree with that are cults (BAD).

Tim Robbins · 18-04-2008 5:35pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

I'm inclined to agree with robin's interpretation of this incident. MacCarthy must know how 'cult' will be understood by the readers.

Seems to me to be the latest example of ecumenical fascism, a sub-set of liberal facism: We all follow the one God/god(GOOD), and any that don't agree with that are cults (BAD).

This is reminding me of "evolution is only a theory". Technically correct, but in layman's terms deliberately misleading.

Yes, I think it wanted to offend. He said:
"to them religious education has no meaning;"

a generalisation and somewhat insulting.

Excelsior · 19-04-2008 12:14pm

Sociologically a cult is a small religious grouping chracterised by separation, the right of the individual over and against the wider society and an emphasis on the group to determine its own direction.

As such, using the term with rigour, cults, wouldn't want the State educating their kids on the tenets of their own religion. Maybe he was being insulting but the words themselves offer a much more forgiving, if easily lost meaning and let's be honest, the Church Of Ireland is not a bastion of fundamentalist vitriol.

Nevyn · 19-04-2008 12:36pm

There are many meanings to the word cult rather then the popular one of group of idiots under the sway of someone.

Cult typically refers to a cohesive social group devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture considers outside the mainstream

Hinduism and Islam are not in the mainstream in this country and there fore are considered to be cults, the same with my own religion.

cult
–noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.

3. the object of such devotion.

4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.

7. the members of such a religion or sect.

8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.

–adjective
9. of or pertaining to a cult.

10. of, for, or attracting a small group of devotees: a cult movie.

Only one of those is negative.

lostexpectation · 19-04-2008 6:03pm

well if the priest can't comprehend the world outside this country then he has more problems, the whole tone of the letter and the sentence about indoctrination rather then education clearly show how he means it, searching him it seems he's a bit of a crank.

His main problem is the suggestion that all the religions should be thought by secularist at the same level and not as nessecarily true, but there are now three letters n reply in papers disgusted by his attitude, he didn't put it very well did he?

robindch · 19-04-2008 8:34pm

MacCarthy's ecumenical outing seems to have won him few friends, if today's IT letters' page is anything to go by:

Lucy Twigg wrote:

Madam, - As a sixth-year Leaving Certificate religious studies student, I feel I must express my indignation and disgust at Dean MacCarthy's letter of April 17th referring to the Muslim and Hindu religious traditions as "cults".

This viewpoint utterly shocked me, as Islam and Hinduism are widely accepted as two of the world's five great religious traditions. I have studied cults and sects in detail as part of my religion course and I think it is fair to say that these religions do not fit the criteria or characteristics of a typical cult or sect.

It is this sort of comment that leads to religious differences and intolerance. We should be doing all we can to promote inter-faith dialogue, rather than making insulting, throw-away remarks. - Yours, etc,

LUCY TWIGG, Amber Hill, Kilmeaden, Co Waterford.

DS Clare wrote:

Madam, - Robert MacCarthy, Dean of St Patrick's Cathedral, laments that Muslims and Hindus wouldn't want to join in with the religious education classes he proposes for secondary schools because "to them religious education has no meaning; instead they wish their children to be indoctrinated in the worship of a cult."

By calling two major world religions "cults" and implying that Muslims and Hindus worship those "cults" and not their respective deities, Rev MacCarthy demonstrates breathtaking ignorance and intolerance. It makes me embarrassed to be a Christian.

I consider Rev MacCarthy's letter irresponsible and unhelpful in an Ireland attempting to welcome strangers to its shores. - Yours, etc.

D.S. CLARE, Shankill, Co Dublin.

Nick Hilliard wrote:

Madam, - It has been quite some while since I've enjoyed as good a belly-laugh as the one I had on reading Dean MacCarthy's hilarious hypocrisy towards non-Christian faiths.

I wonder how he would react if a Muslim or Hindu wrote a similar letter to the national press in their own country, decrying the cultish nature of Christianity? The verb "to worship" is indeed an irregular beast. - Yours, etc,

NICK HILLIARD, De Courcey Square, Glasnevin, Dublin 9.

Ekancone · 19-04-2008 9:43pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

There are many meanings to the word cult rather then the popular one of group of idiots under the sway of someone.

Hinduism and Islam are not in the mainstream in this country and there fore are considered to be cults, the same with my own religion.

Only one of those is negative.

I suppose frequently using the term 'final solution' while addressing a group of Germans is perfectly fine due to the fact most of the terms uses are neutral.

Excelsior · 19-04-2008 11:28pm

Godwins Principle anyone?

I'm not denying that it was poorly phrased. I am arguing that the use of the word cult by a scholarly cleric in a liberal Christian denomination is probably a reference to the fact that Muslims and Hindus would prefer to teach their kids at home about religion rather than let them attend the kind of course Ms. Lucy Twigg is participating in.

PDN · 20-04-2008 6:55am

Excelsior wrote: »

Godwins Principle anyone?

I'm not denying that it was poorly phrased. I am arguing that the use of the word cult by a scholarly cleric in a liberal Christian denomination is probably a reference to the fact that Muslims and Hindus would prefer to teach their kids at home about religion rather than let them attend the kind of course Ms. Lucy Twigg is participating in.

And maybe the Hindus and Muslims are right to do so since Miss Twigg, for a 'sixth-year Leaving Certificate religious studies student', appears to be woefully unaware of how the word cult is used when discussing the sociology of religion.

BTW, our Church recently added an additional Sunday service. It is bilingual (French & English) and is correctly translated as our Culte Francophone. That makes me feel like a Mormon polygamist - but c'est la vie!

philologos · 21-04-2008 7:10am

Excelsior wrote: »

Godwins Principle anyone?

I'm not denying that it was poorly phrased. I am arguing that the use of the word cult by a scholarly cleric in a liberal Christian denomination is probably a reference to the fact that Muslims and Hindus would prefer to teach their kids at home about religion rather than let them attend the kind of course Ms. Lucy Twigg is participating in.

I would disagree that Anglicanism is a liberal denomination. However in this case Revd. MacCarthy has dug himself into a hole.

lostexpectation · 21-04-2008 12:11pm

i'd say it more to do with he was inferring that they wouldn't want to educate them too well in general unless they see the cults for what they are. keep them dum and indoctrinated.

An Fear Aniar · 21-04-2008 3:17pm

It's just more proof that religion is evil. The priestly caste just can't avoid being evil, it's in their nature.

.

PDN · 21-04-2008 5:10pm

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

It's just more proof that religion is evil. The priestly caste just can't avoid being evil, it's in their nature.

As trolling would appear to be in your nature. Consider this your one and only warning.

wolfsbane · 21-04-2008 8:21pm

Jakkass wrote: »

I would disagree that Anglicanism is a liberal denomination. However in this case Revd. MacCarthy has dug himself into a hole.

An interesting view! To an outsider, Anglicanism appears to me to be composed mostly of liberal clergy, rule by liberal clergy and - as far as I can tell - most members are liberal. I'm open to correction.

Or do you define Anglicanism by its foundational documents - the 39 Articles and Book of Common Prayer? That would indeed make in far from liberal. My Anglican Evangelical friends rely on that to justify their continued membership in such a denomination.

wolfsbane · 21-04-2008 8:38pm

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

It's just more proof that religion is evil. The priestly caste just can't avoid being evil, it's in their nature.

.

You'll be glad to hear the Church described in the New Testament has no priestly caste. Every Christian is a priest, with Christ as our High Priest.
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

The later development of a priestly caste by those claiming to be the Church was an example of paganism contaminating churches, rather than churches converting pagans.
Revelation 2:1 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,
‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

neuro-praxis · 22-04-2008 1:10am

lostexpectation wrote: »

i'd say it more to do with he was inferring that they wouldn't want to educate them too well in general unless they see the cults for what they are. keep them dum and indoctrinated.

Seriously though le, how can you know what he was inferring?

If it is true that he was using the word technically then it isn't meant to be derisive at all. Hindu and Islamic communities in Ireland do take responsibility for the religious education of their young. That is in part because they are not catered too (understandably) in mainstream schools and because they don't want their kids to be taught that it doesn't matter what you believe since its a private matter. There are lots of good sociological reasons for these communities to feel this way and it doesn't require any malice or cynicism to be attributed to the Dean.

If you believe that all religion is delusion then indeed you believe all Hindu and Muslim children to be indoctrinated. But within the worldview of the families involved, they are just protecting their kids from the hegemonic empire tendencies of the globalised west. If the Dean is using "cult" technically, then weirdly he is showing those communities even more respect than the average secular person is.

Now I am not saying it was well chosen. I am not even saying that he definitely meant no harm. But I am saying that the most plausible explanation is that he meant cult to mean a particular sociological category of religion.

PDN · 22-04-2008 9:07am

lostexpectation wrote: »

keep them dum and indoctrinated.

“A taste for irony has kept more hearts from breaking than a sense of humor for it takes irony to appreciate the joke which is on oneself” (Jessamyn West)

Galvasean · 22-04-2008 11:23am

I'm certain the Dean could have chosen a different word than 'cult'. A man of his profession should know about the negative connotations such a word implies. In my opinion it looks like a thinly veiled jibe at the other religions. It will be interesting to see if he explains his words.

edit: I'm not saying he needs to apologize, simply state what he meant to avoid confusion.

philologos · 22-04-2008 4:23pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

An interesting view! To an outsider, Anglicanism appears to me to be composed mostly of liberal clergy, rule by liberal clergy and - as far as I can tell - most members are liberal. I'm open to correction.

Or do you define Anglicanism by its foundational documents - the 39 Articles and Book of Common Prayer? That would indeed make in far from liberal. My Anglican Evangelical friends rely on that to justify their continued membership in such a denomination.

wolfsbane: In a lot of cases some liberalism among clergy frustrates me abit, but it's the most compatible with my beliefs theologically as defined in the 39 Articles and Book of Common Prayer yes.

wolfsbane · 22-04-2008 8:56pm

Jakkass wrote: »

wolfsbane: In a lot of cases some liberalism among clergy frustrates me abit, but it's the most compatible with my beliefs theologically as defined in the 39 Articles and Book of Common Prayer yes.

The 39 Articles are at the other end of the spectrum from liberalism. They most closely resemble Evangelical/Reformed theology. For example:
I. Of Faith in the Holy Trinity.
There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts or passions; of
infinite power, wisdom and goodness; the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible
and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of one substance,
power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

II. Of the Word or Son of God, which was made very Man.
The Son, which is the Word of the Father, begotten from everlasting of the Father, the
very and eternal God, and of one substance with the Father, took Man's nature in the
womb of the blessed Virgin, of her substance: so that two whole and perfect Natures,
that is to say, the Godhead and Manhood, were joined together in one Person, never to be
divided, whereof is one Christ, very God, and very Man; who truly suffered, was crucified,
dead and buried, to reconcile his Father to us, and to be a sacrifice, not only for original
guilt, but also for all actual sins of men.

IV. Of the Resurrection of Christ.
Christ did truly rise again from death, and took again his body, with flesh, bones, and all
things appertaining to the perfection of Man's nature; wherewith he ascended into
Heaven, and there sitteth, until he return to judge all Men at the last day.

Michael G · 26-04-2008 5:50pm

This is all highly entertaining, as I understand that the reverend gentleman used to be a Catholic priest but became an Anglican because he disagreed with some Catholic teachings. (I am surprised that anyone could find much to disagree about with the debilitated and emasculated post-Vatican II Church, but that is by the way.) I think what he was trying to say was that Muslim and Hindu parents, most unreasonably, would like their children to be taught the tents of their own faith (as Catholics used to do), rather than to be presented with them as just two in a range of "lifestyle choices".

lostexpectation · 26-04-2008 6:05pm

neuro-praxis wrote: »

Seriously though le, how can you know what he was inferring?

If it is true that he was using the word technically then it isn't meant to be derisive at all. Hindu and Islamic communities in Ireland do take responsibility for the religious education of their young. That is in part because they are not catered too (understandably) in mainstream schools and because they don't want their kids to be taught that it doesn't matter what you believe since its a private matter. There are lots of good sociological reasons for these communities to feel this way and it doesn't require any malice or cynicism to be attributed to the Dean.

If you believe that all religion is delusion then indeed you believe all Hindu and Muslim children to be indoctrinated. But within the worldview of the families involved, they are just protecting their kids from the hegemonic empire tendencies of the globalised west. If the Dean is using "cult" technically, then weirdly he is showing those communities even more respect than the average secular person is.

Now I am not saying it was well chosen. I am not even saying that he definitely meant no harm. But I am saying that the most plausible explanation is that he meant cult to mean a particular sociological category of religion.

no sorry it the opposite, if i as an atheist called hinduism and muslim cults it would not be hypocritical but for christian priest to do so...

eoin5 · 26-04-2008 7:23pm

lostexpectation wrote: »

no sorry it the opposite, if i as an atheist called hinduism and muslim cults it would not be hypocritical but for christian priest to do so...

It wouldnt be hypocritical if a priest were to admit his own religion is a cult too. Unfortunatly thats just not going to happen. I think cult is a needlessly derogatory word anyway, theyre not all weapons hoarding polygamists.

PoleStar · 27-04-2008 12:00am

I find all this quite amusing regarding the description of Islam etc as cults and peoples reactions.

Perhaps people have forgotten the truth of all this:

1 man who believes in an approaching doomsday or end of the earth is called a mad man.

100 people believing god is going to return in a spaceship and bring them to paradise is a sect or cult.

1 million people believing in a virgin giving birth to a man who can walk on water is religion.

The only true difference is numbers, call it what you will.

robindch · 01-05-2008 10:43am

...in the Irish Times today. Well, he hasn't said that what he wrote was offensive to many, but at least he has apologized for causing offense. Didn't say nuthin' about sociological categorization.

Robert McCarthy wrote:

Madam, - I refer to my letter of April 17th. It was never my intention to cause offence to the Muslim and Hindu communities and I am sorry that this has happened.

I support all efforts to reconcile different religious groups: under my leadership a service has been held in St Patrick's Cathedral in which Muslims and Hindus were among the participants.

I look forward to further discussions about the purpose of religious education and indeed other topics with the Muslim, Hindu and other faith communities. - Yours, etc,

ROBERT MacCARTHY,
Dean of St Patrick's,
Upper Kevin Street,
Dublin 8.

RealEstateKing · 08-05-2008 10:51am

Imagine Rowan Williams or somebody had said something similar in England. There'd be riots.

"Cult" is simply a pejorative term that we use to describe religions we dont like, in the same way than an 'alcoholic' is somebody you dont like who drinks as much as you do.

lostexpectation · 13-05-2008 3:32am

Imagine Rowan Williams or somebody had said something similar in England. There'd be riots.

my god what a colossally stupid thing to say

Dean of St Partrick Says Islam and Hinduism are cults

Comments